(Topic ID: 223387)

Sometimes you have to be quiet and walk away


By glasairpilot

8 months ago



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There are 58 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
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#1 8 months ago

For the first time in 15 years I walked away from a machine that I agreed to buy. I was actually picking up 2 machines in Chicago. A NGG in Woodridge and a RNB in Carol Stream. The NGG was listed on Pinside by a known seller and the RNB was on eBay.

First, I will talk about the NGG. Brian represented it perfectly. He said it was probably HUO due to the condition. The pics looked good and after coming to his home I agreed. I looked at it for 3 minutes and we loaded it in my van. It wasn't perfect, but was very nice and that is how he represented it.

Now, the RNB not not go so well. The seller accepted my offer of $3800 for a "Mint" machine that was near perfect other than some very slight blemishes on the edges. Claimed HUO from an original home where it as supposedly bought new and never moved until he bought it. The pictures on eBay (the ones he provided) appeared to support his claim. I asked him multiple times if it really was "mint" and his reply was "If you know anything about pinball you will be impressed." I told him I have been in the hobby for 15 years which should have given him the clue that it was time to tell me if it was not mint. I arrived at his place of business which ended up being an entertainment rental store (bounce houses, video games, etc). This concerned me a bit since they rented out pinball machines for parties. The seller was not there, so his operations manager helped me.

It did not take me long to figure out that this machine was either abused in the home or had been routed. Here is why:

1. The coin door lock was drilled and a rigged insert was put in it's place. The coin door had also shown signs of being pried open as it's inside edges were bent and paint scraped off.
2. The back box had multiple scrapes and dings with not even an attempt to touch it up. It it was in the home only it was either moved often with no concern for damage or they made a point to intentionally scrape the back box.
3. The right top corner of the back box was planking (separating) due to being damaged when being moved I would assume. The pictures that were listed did not show the damage or the worst scrapes - only the slight ones.
4. The side art had been written on with a sharpie pen adding a beard and mustache to Natasha and missing teeth to Boris.

The real problem was the fact that the seller not only said it was "Mint" but also claim all boards were checked with emphasis on the fact that there was no acid damage, etc. After seeing the machine in person I was already disappointed in the condition, but was still willing to buy it for full price; however, the manager could not find the back box key so I could verify the condition. I waited around for 40 minutes while he talked to the owner. After he jacked around trying to insert all kinds of keys into the lock I made the suggestion that he discount it $100 to me and I will take the risk of what was behind the glass and replace the lock myself. The owner (over the phone) rejected my offer and told me I had a binding contract on eBay and that I had to pay him. I explained to him nicely that the machine definitely was not mint and my offer of $100 less was fair considering that he had to have the key to prove to me that the boards were clean and "mint." He then told me he would find the key tomorrow and I could drive back to get it then. At this point I was pretty irritated as it was a 8 hour round trip drive (Chicago is the worst) and there was no way I was making the trip again. I reminded him that he had a week to have the machine ready knowing I was driving 8 hours. Not having the keys for the back box and a drilled out coin door would have been nice information to have. I offered one more time to take the machine with a $100 discount. He declined and got pretty rude with me.

That is when I decided it was time to shut up and walk away. I thanked the manager for his time and told him I did not like the seller and wanted to leave without a problem developing. He agreed that it was not going well and said it was for the best.

So, I get home and receive a non-paying bidder strike warning on my eBay account. It just amazes me that someone would misrepresent a machine like that, not apologize for the condition and not being ready, and then be rude to me for my $100 less offer AND then have the audacity to ask eBay to step in.

At least I got a nice NGG out of the trip. Life is good

#2 8 months ago

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15
#3 8 months ago

Contact eBay . They will side with you especially if you had pictures. Not as described could be a strike to his account. What is the eBay handle and business name? Would be a way more useful post for the next guy researching the seller.

#4 8 months ago
Quoted from cougtv:

Contact eBay . They will side with you especially if you had pictures. Not as described could be a strike to his account. What is the eBay handle and business name? Would be a way more useful post for the next guy researching the seller.

You know, I did not even think to take pictures as I was literally dumbfounded with the seller's attitude. I just wanted to leave after watching his manager blindly try to put keys into a lock that were obviously the wrong ones and being berated by the seller during this time.

The machine would rate out as a "good" machine for someone, especially if you replaced the locks, touched it up, etc. It will never be a "Mint" HUO machine.

I really don't like to bash people since they are not here to defend themselves, so I won't post the seller's name yet, unless he pursues his eBay claim. If anyone wants more information I will share that by PM.

It was just one of them unfortunate situations that were best to walk away from. I really dislike confrontations.

#5 8 months ago

Is this it? Probably should've linking the eBay listing. Says sold for $4295, did you do an off eBay purchase?

ebay.com link » Rocky Bullwinkle Arcade Pinball Machine Mint Condition

#6 8 months ago
Quoted from boscokid:

Is this it? Probably should've linking the eBay listing. Says sold for $4295, did you do an off eBay purchase?
ebay.com link » Rocky Bullwinkle Arcade Pinball Machine Mint Condition

Yep, that's the one. Mint condition "You will be very impressed." The offer was made and accepted through eBay. All above board. I don't understand why it says it sold for $4,295 - when I click it says "Congratulations, the seller has accepted your offer of $3,800 - please pay now."

#7 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Yep, that's the one. Mint condition "You will be very impressed." The offer was made and accepted through eBay. All above board. I don't understand why it says it sold for $4,295 - when I click it says "Congratulations, the seller has accepted your offer of $3,800 - please pay now."

Ebay makes it harder to see actual sale price as they look more attractive to sellers when they think something sells for $4,295 vs. $3,800 and likewise when a buyer makes an offer of less and gets their item at that price the buyer feels like they won too vs the higher historical pricing. There are 3rd party sites where you can see the true price easier.
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#8 8 months ago

$3,800 for a RNB?

#9 8 months ago
Quoted from PinRob:

$3,800 for a RNB?

That's a steal...check out this deal at $5,100...AFTER a 20% discount.

ebay.com link » Rocky Bullwinkle Arcade Pinball Machine Dataeast 1993 Custom Led Excellent

#10 8 months ago

For $3800 on rnb, I would expect in new condition. Some of the best deals are the ones you pass on.

#11 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Yep, that's the one. Mint condition "You will be very impressed." The offer was made and accepted through eBay. All above board. I don't understand why it says it sold for $4,295 - when I click it says "Congratulations, the seller has accepted your offer of $3,800 - please pay now."

Sorry, not implying your purchase wasn't above board, just wanted to see if this is the game in question.

Can't believe the seller was not willing to take 100 off the top if he cant produce the backbox key after you are in the showroom.

#12 8 months ago

Pictures on the ad show the mustaches on Natasha and Nell and the missing teeth.
Game definitely looks HUO and pretty minty. No cracks at entrance on left ramp, No wear on Bullwinkle's nose on the backglass.

Hassle with the guy not having the key on hand, but I see no misrepresentation in the ad or the description or the pictures. Although you can see that the lion mech is stuck in the halfway position in the photos.
Do you not bring a tool box/bag when you go to look at games? Headlock on this games comes out either with a phillips or a security bit.

$3800 is too high for even an HUO R&B.

#13 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

For the first time in 15 years I walked away from a machine that I agreed to buy. I was actually picking up 2 machines in Chicago. A NGG in Woodridge and a RNB in Carol Stream. The NGG was listed on Pinside by a known seller and the RNB was on eBay.
First, I will talk about the NGG. Brian represented it perfectly. He said it was probably HUO due to the condition. The pics looked good and after coming to his home I agreed. I looked at it for 3 minutes and we loaded it in my van. It wasn't perfect, but was very nice and that is how he represented it.
Now, the RNB not not go so well. The seller accepted my offer of $3800 for a "Mint" machine that was near perfect other than some very slight blemishes on the edges. Claimed HUO from an original home where it as supposedly bought new and never moved until he bought it. The pictures on eBay (the ones he provided) appeared to support his claim. I asked him multiple times if it really was "mint" and his reply was "If you know anything about pinball you will be impressed." I told him I have been in the hobby for 15 years which should have given him the clue that it was time to tell me if it was not mint. I arrived at his place of business which ended up being an entertainment rental store (bounce houses, video games, etc). This concerned me a bit since they rented out pinball machines for parties. The seller was not there, so his operations manager helped me.
It did not take me long to figure out that this machine was either abused in the home or had been routed. Here is why:
1. The coin door lock was drilled and a rigged insert was put in it's place. The coin door had also shown signs of being pried open as it's inside edges were bent and paint scraped off.
2. The back box had multiple scrapes and dings with not even an attempt to touch it up. It it was in the home only it was either moved often with no concern for damage or they made a point to intentionally scrape the back box.
3. The right top corner of the back box was planking (separating) due to being damaged when being moved I would assume. The pictures that were listed did not show the damage or the worst scrapes - only the slight ones.
4. The side art had been written on with a sharpie pen adding a beard and mustache to Natasha and missing teeth to Boris.
The real problem was the fact that the seller not only said it was "Mint" but also claim all boards were checked with emphasis on the fact that there was no acid damage, etc. After seeing the machine in person I was already disappointed in the condition, but was still willing to buy it for full price; however, the manager could not find the back box key so I could verify the condition. I waited around for 40 minutes while he talked to the owner. After he jacked around trying to insert all kinds of keys into the lock I made the suggestion that he discount it $100 to me and I will take the risk of what was behind the glass and replace the lock myself. The owner (over the phone) rejected my offer and told me I had a binding contract on eBay and that I had to pay him. I explained to him nicely that the machine definitely was not mint and my offer of $100 less was fair considering that he had to have the key to prove to me that the boards were clean and "mint." He then told me he would find the key tomorrow and I could drive back to get it then. At this point I was pretty irritated as it was a 8 hour round trip drive (Chicago is the worst) and there was no way I was making the trip again. I reminded him that he had a week to have the machine ready knowing I was driving 8 hours. Not having the keys for the back box and a drilled out coin door would have been nice information to have. I offered one more time to take the machine with a $100 discount. He declined and got pretty rude with me.
That is when I decided it was time to shut up and walk away. I thanked the manager for his time and told him I did not like the seller and wanted to leave without a problem developing. He agreed that it was not going well and said it was for the best.
So, I get home and receive a non-paying bidder strike warning on my eBay account. It just amazes me that someone would misrepresent a machine like that, not apologize for the condition and not being ready, and then be rude to me for my $100 less offer AND then have the audacity to ask eBay to step in.
At least I got a nice NGG out of the trip. Life is good

Yes... I have walked away from a few machines and just kept my mouth shut.
Just recently I visited a seller near Philadelphia. The fact that his machine was only owned by him, morphed into a HUO claim. I pointed out a cab repair with bondo, damage on the playfield, cracked ramps and evidence he had routed it. He then admitted it he had out on route, but he was the only owner. He then called Betson to verify the single ownership claim which was silly at that point. I excused myself and walked out of the house..

#14 8 months ago

Not too long ago some dude TOTE-ally walked away from a game after the seller smashed his taillight.

#15 8 months ago
Quoted from Jiggly_Martian:

Yes... I have walked away from a few machines and just kept my mouth shut.
Just recently I visited a seller near Philadelphia. The fact that his machine was only owned by him, morphed into a HUO claim. I pointed out a cab repair with bondo, damage on the playfield, cracked ramps and evidence he had routed it. He then admitted it he had out on route, but he was the only owner. He then called Betson to verify the single ownership claim which was silly at that point. I excused myself and walked out of the house..

Similar story with a better ending.
I was the third owner of a very nice Iron Man that I got from a friend, the guy he got it from claimed HUO in his emails and rechecking the original ad it said single owner (rather than HUO). While showing the game when I went to sell it I accidentally ended up in the Paid Audits and it showed a lifetime $5400 in paid games, so I had to edit my ads to reflect the truth. Was still a super nice game with no magnet wear but that shooter lane was not in the 1000 or so games played range than I usually see with HUO.
I checked the individual coin slot audits to make sure it wasn't a stuck coin switch on one side that run up the audits. Game even had a dollar bill acceptor on it at one point to have credits on the 4th coin slot.

#16 8 months ago

@amkoepfer has a nice rnb in toledo I know he was considering selling if you're really wanting that title hit him up

#17 8 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Pictures on the ad show the mustaches on Natasha and Nell and the missing teeth.
Game definitely looks HUO and pretty minty. No cracks at entrance on left ramp, No wear on Bullwinkle's nose on the backglass.
Hassle with the guy not having the key on hand, but I see no misrepresentation in the ad or the description or the pictures. Although you can see that the lion mech is stuck in the halfway position in the photos.
Do you not bring a tool box/bag when you go to look at games? Headlock on this games comes out either with a phillips or a security bit.
$3800 is too high for even an HUO R&B.

You are correct - I see the mustaches in the pics now, lol! Had I saw them before going I would have passed on it. He advertised "Mint" condition. When I advertise something as mint I use the true definition to back it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mint_condition.

I was paying top dollar for the RNB in Mint condition and did not bring a tool box as I expected it mint and further expected it to have the keys available to open it.

Like I said, I was willing to take it for $100 off, which I thought was very fair considering the circumstances.

I have bought and sold about 20 pins off of Pinside folks and have never had an issue. This one just made me pause mostly due to the fact that he did not seem to care that the machine was not ready to sell to me even though he had a week to prepare and knew I wanted a "Mint" one. I would have been embarrassed to have someone drive 8 hours and then tell them "come back tomorrow when I find the key." I would have not only accepted the $100 discount, I would have given him another $100 for being willing to complete the deal.

#18 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

He advertised "Mint" condition.

You should hold out for one that is imamaculate

#19 8 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

You should hold out for one that is imamaculate

I agree. I like the machine because the cartoons were my generation. It's not that desirable of a pin.

#20 8 months ago
Quoted from Puffdanny:

@amkoepfer has a nice rnb in toledo I know he was considering selling if you're really wanting that title hit him up

Yes i do dan. And yes i would consider selling it, but bobcatbowling has first crack at it.

#21 8 months ago

I'm always automatically skeptical of anything described as "mint". It's almost always a guarantee that the item is being misrepresented. To me, "mint" is just a shade below NIB, maybe opened box, never used, but that's almost never the case.

10
#22 8 months ago

"Mint" always tells me that the seller has no idea what they are talking about.

#23 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

I would have not only accepted the $100 discount, I would have given him another $100 for being willing to complete the deal.

I would have kicked the douchebag seller in the balls and left.

#24 8 months ago

A few months ago, I sold a very very nice R&B for 2800.00.

Box of extra spare backbox animation parts went with it.

Not HUO, and not perfect, but about as nice as it is possible to find.

I thought that was a fair deal both ways.

RussM

#25 8 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Pictures on the ad show the mustaches on Natasha and Nell and the missing teeth.
Game definitely looks HUO and pretty minty. No cracks at entrance on left ramp, No wear on Bullwinkle's nose on the backglass.

Machine looks very nice, but seller conveniently left out photos of the sides of the head, which buyer says were damaged. IMO, shady.

I'm suspicious when photos are low resolution, blurry or don't show all sides and above the top edge (if there is supposed to be a topper).

#26 8 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Machine looks very nice, but seller conveniently left out photos of the sides of the head, which buyer says were damaged. IMO, shady.
I'm suspicious when photos are low resolution, blurry or don't show all sides and above the top edge (if there is supposed to be a topper).

What are you talking about? There is a picture of the topper, there is also in that same picture, very visibly some small chips in the paint on the front edges of the head. Most of what the OP had issue with are EVIDENT in the picture in the Ebay ad. If the OP's problem was that it had ANY chips/nicks to the paint then there should have been NO surprise. None of the pics look low res, they look like standard ebay resolution. If I am going to drive 8+ hours to buy a machine I will go over the pics with a microscopic AND ask for better resolution pics directly emailed from the buyer rather than the ebay sizes. Heck even the pictures I put on pinside ads get scaled down. I always send the originals resolution copies to buyers so that they can see

I have no idea who the seller is, and he was an idiot for the way he dealt with the buyer (especially since the OP was still willing to give him $3700 for it) , but I can't see any blame with the ad or the way it was advertised, not everybody is an expert and most people are way less critical as sellers than as buyers and that's true in everything.

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#27 8 months ago

Forgot the mustache pictures.

Looks like the Sherman on the left side also has a black eye.

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#28 8 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

What are you talking about?

Quoted from Jvspin:

I'm suspicious when photos are low resolution, blurry or don't show all sides and above the top edge (if there is supposed to be a topper).

This is just a general statement, not directed at this particular sale.

Left side of head is not shown.

Sharpie markings are shown in photos and I can understand a seller not noticing those.

#29 8 months ago

can't remember are these decals or screen prints?

Got a chance to play one recently, not sure why data east games get a bad rep, personally thought it was kind of fun.

#30 8 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Left side of head is not shown.

OP didn't mention a problem with the left side.

#31 8 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

OP didn't mention a problem with the left side.

Quoted from glasairpilot:

2. The back box had multiple scrapes and dings with not even an attempt to touch it up. It it was in the home only it was either moved often with no concern for damage or they made a point to intentionally scrape the back box.
3. The right top corner of the back box was planking (separating) due to being damaged when being moved I would assume. The pictures that were listed did not show the damage or the worst scrapes - only the slight ones.

Quoted from kbliznick:

OP didn't mention a problem with the left side.

Since I don't see a bunch of scrapes on the right side, figure they're on the left.

Game does look clean from what's shown.

#32 8 months ago

That is too bad. I'm glad you got the NGG but man I cant fathom having a customer come to my business and not having things prepared on a large purchase like that. For my own protection on sales of any kind I offer to take a video or the machine running in addition to pics and upload it so after they watch it if they notice anything they don't like we can address it. I want everything to be out on the table so neither party has anything to complain about.

Thanks
Blake

#33 8 months ago

"Mint" has a different meaning for everyone and if I am selling and say it is mint I reference it to the definition which is "like new."

Graffiti on the side art, drilled coin box with pry damage on the inside, top right of head box separating (not in pictures), multiple knicks and scratches not just on edges like was described, and no way to verify what was behind glass is not "Mint." I agreed to pay top dollar for a "Mint" machine and offered $100 less for a "Nice" machine after driving 8 hours. I don't think I was asking for much.

I just bought a 1982 Datsun 280ZX with 14k miles from the original owner. It truly was MINT with perfect original paint, no rust, no dings, no scratches, A/C ice cold, everything working, and all original paperwork. The car was essentially a new 36 year old car. He described it as mint and I gave him a big bag of money for it.

When I sell something and describe it as "mint" or "perfect" it will be. I expect the same if I am buying and paying top market price.

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#34 8 months ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

"Mint" always tells me that the seller has no idea what they are talking about.

"Mint" is a redneck term meaning too good to go to the dump.

#35 8 months ago

Damn! That is a nice looking 280zx

#36 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

He described it as mint and I gave him a big bag of money for it.

How big was the bag?

#37 8 months ago

Lol, about 8 Mint RNBs.

#38 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

I just bought a 1982 Datsun 280ZX with 14k miles from the original owner. It truly was MINT

Now we know your taste in cars isn't any better than your taste in pins.

#39 8 months ago

Yeah, I’m a sucker for low performance machines.

#40 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

4. The side art had been written on with a sharpie pen adding a beard and mustache to Natasha and missing teeth to Boris.

But was it artistic tho? ‍

#41 8 months ago

Yes! The 12 year old inspired art was awesome!

#42 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Yeah, I’m a sucker for low performance machines.

Low performance or not its a pretty cool find. Good to see that no one drew eye lashes on the head lights

#43 8 months ago
Quoted from boscokid:

Damn! That is a nice looking 280zx

That is a sweet 280. I would dare say imamaculate!

#44 8 months ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

That is a sweet 280. I would dare say imamaculate!

this was too easy

#45 8 months ago

I don’t know, that gas tank looks totally banged up to me. You should have asked for a major discount.

#46 8 months ago
Quoted from Scorch:

Not too long ago some dude TOTE-ally walked away from a game after the seller smashed his taillight.

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#47 8 months ago

I feel it would only be reasonable for the seller to discount the price if he didn't have the freaking backbox key. Was he expecting you to just take it without having access to a part of the machine?

#48 8 months ago

Yes, I agree. I was asking for $100 which included the fact that I would be replacing both locks and would have a possible surprise of what was behind the back glass as well. I don’t think it was an unreasonable request.

#49 8 months ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Yes, I agree. I was asking for $100 which included the fact that I would be replacing both locks and would have a possible surprise of what was behind the back glass as well. I don’t think it was an unreasonable request.

You should've gotten that discount just for the 40 minute wait while he jacked around on the phone.

#50 8 months ago

I love it now people don't like the word mint...people you know what mint means give me a break...I would have told the seller to kick rocks I'm outta here.. you better believe the game should be so close to straight out of the box new looking...or I walk. I'm going to purposely keep using the word Mint in for sale threads just to keep some of you D-Bags that this bothers away from any of my listings ..Glasairpilot I've bought from you and you and I are on the same page of a mint machine ...your offer was way more than fair...good luck to you bro, we all run into one of these deals every so often since everybody thinks they found a pinball machine in someone's basement and it has to be worth a lot ha ha

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