(Topic ID: 209778)

Someone with working Granny and the Gators

By pinballman3

6 years ago


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  • 34 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Ed150
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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GoldBall_MPU-133.jpg
Granny_and_the_Gators_MPU-133.jpg
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#1 6 years ago

Can someone with a working Granny and the Gators please put some pictures up of the Vidiot Deluxe board connectors J1 and J2. I want to make sure all of the wires on mine are correct. I am going to replace the connectors and would like to verify all of the wires as I do that. I am getting weird video when I push the test button on Vidiot Deluxe board to go into communication test. I have tried 2 new CPU in it with same results so that is not the issue. I have replaced all of the connectors on the CPU. I have never had this machine working and I would like to get it that way.

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#2 6 years ago

Could be a CPU issue, or a CPU-Vidiot communications issue.

Are any of these working CPU's the Bally AS-2518-35's? The pin/video games, Baby Pac-Man, Granny and the Gators, require a modified version of that cpu: AS-2518-133 (IIRC something about the zero crossing detector circuitry & Pinwiki.com has info about swapping a resistor for a diode).

Also, eprom locations and jumpers can be troublesome when you want to swap the cpu boards around between different Bally games (see pinwiki again).

I've seen that jumbled video image before in another thread, and it is normal under some circumstances. Wrote about some tests done on my working game in the other thread. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/granny-and-the-gators-vidiot-deluxe-issue#post-4222090

EDIT: This working Granny game will start up well enough, when the Vidiot board is completely disconnected, to do the front door test button switch lamp and solenoid tests.
Strange post script, supposedly you have to replaced R113 with a small signal diode, (the -35 to -133 board conversion), but this Granny has been operating for 25 years with an unconverted 2518-35 board (borrowed from an Elektra pin).

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from Biffbar:

Could be a CPU issue, or a CPU-Vidiot communications issue.

Are any of these working CPU's the Bally AS-2518-35's? The pin/video games, Baby Pac-Man, Granny and the Gators, require a modified version of that cpu: AS-2518-133 (IIRC something about the zero crossing detector circuitry & Pinwiki.com has info about swapping a resistor for a diode).

Also, eprom locations and jumpers can be troublesome when you want to swap the cpu boards around between different Bally games (see pinwiki again).

I've seen that jumbled video image before in another thread, and it is normal under some circumstances. Wrote about some tests done on my working game in the other thread. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/granny-and-the-gators-vidiot-deluxe-issue#post-4222090

It's the OP's photo you saw. And he said it was a new Altek MPU.

Quoted from pinballman3:

Can someone with a working Granny and the Gators please put some pictures up of the Vidiot Deluxe board connectors J1 and J2. I want to make sure all of the wires on mine are correct. I am going to replace the connectors and would like to verify all of the wires as I do that. I am getting weird video when I push the test button on Vidiot Deluxe board to go into communication test. I have tried 2 new CPU in it with same results so that is not the issue. I have replaced all of the connectors on the CPU. I have never had this machine working and I would like to get it that way.

You're right to request photos of the connectors--that's one of the things I'd check. I don't have they game, unfortunately.

That garbled mess on the screen could be a RAM issue or a ROM issue on the vidiot board.

Normally, when the vidiot board boots, it verifies the ROMs. However, I'd double check those and compare them yourself to the ROM files with an EPROM burner.

Also, make sure the ROM chips are in the right sockets. It's easy to play musical chairs with them if they're not labeled.

#4 6 years ago

Thanks for the replies. Biffbar, you have a working Granny? Could you put up some pics of the J1 and J2 connector wires? If it's not to much trouble.

#5 6 years ago

Would take a while before I could get inside the Granny cabinet.
Would this help? http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1083/Bally_1984_Granny_and_the_Gators_Schematics_paginated.pdf
Page 5 shows the Vidiot Deluxe connections and the wiring color codes. IPDB.org also has some more Granny documentation.

#6 6 years ago

Biffbar, thank you that will work. I looked right at that and did not notice it. Talking about feeling stupid. Thanks again.

1 month later
#7 6 years ago

I have got deep into this and I can not figure this out. When i boot up the game it just has a pinkish screen (pic 2) Then when I hit the test button on the Vidiot Deluxe board I get the communication screen with the weird video (pic 1). Here is what I have done. I have replaced all connectors on the MPU and the Vidiot Deluxe board. I have noticed if I hit the test button inside the coin door it does nothing. Does not go into light test or coil test if you hit it again or bring up any numbers on the weird communication screen. I have checked the switch itself and it checks out. The thing is i can put the Vidiot Deluxe board and the Granny MPU board in a Baby Pacman and it boots up to the granny game. Does anyone know what could cause this? Does it have to be a bad connection in the Granny cabinet? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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#8 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballman3:

Does it have to be a bad connection in the Granny cabinet?

Yes, it sounds like it. Check those IDC connectors. It might be time to repin them.

#9 6 years ago

What connectors are you talking about. I have replaced all of them on the mpu and the Vidiot Deluxe board. Are there others that could cause this kind of issues. Thanks

#10 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballman3:

What connectors are you talking about. I have replaced all of them on the mpu and the Vidiot Deluxe board. Are there others that could cause this kind of issues. Thanks

Oh, I just noticed the gibberish on the screen. I thought it was blank earlier and that was just a reflection when I saw the image on my phone.

I haven't encountered that issue before.

However, it still does point to something in granny cabinet as being the problem if the MPU and vidiot deluxe board booted properly elsewhere.

What happens if you completely disconnect the driver board?

#11 6 years ago

connector issue most likely

#12 6 years ago

ForceFlow, this is what it does when I completely disconnect the driver board.

IMG_6513 (resized).jpgIMG_6513 (resized).jpg

#13 6 years ago

Have you ruled out the possibility of an issue with the monitor?

#14 6 years ago

I hooked the Baby pacman monitor to Granny and everything is the same with Granny. That is the monitor that Granny booted up on and looked pretty good. So it's not the monitor.

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballman3:

What connectors are you talking about. I have replaced all of them on the mpu and the Vidiot Deluxe board.

Have you double checked all the connectors you re-did and compared them to the schematics to make sure all the wires are in the correct places?

#16 6 years ago

I am going to go back through them all tomorrow.

#17 6 years ago

I have went back through all the connectors I replaced. They all check out and are in the right place. I replaced a bad looking connector on the driver board also. Everything is still the same. Anymore ideas?

#18 6 years ago

I have fixed this issue before. Three possible solutions. Change out the power supply brick, least likely. You grounding out somewhere, most likely. The oddest one was a bad coin selector switch. Try removing connections there and then from controls and see if it boots. This is a common Arknoid issue as well.

#19 6 years ago

capguntrooper, thanks for the reply. I will check those. Does anyone know how the flash sequence should go for Granny and the Gators? I now it is 6 but should it be like a flicker and then 6? Once the MPU acts like it boots up the test switch inside the coin door will not do anything. I get the picture of the test screen above by pushing the test button on the Vidiot board. Thanks

#20 6 years ago

Ok i checked the mpu flashes. I get the flicker and then only 5 flashes. One less than the Baby pacman gets. I seen on pinrepair that this would mean the mpu is not detecting the 43 volts. On pinrepair it says fuse F4 blown. My F4 fuse is good I get 43 volts at the fuse on playfield and 43 volts at the coils. Does anyone know how the MPU actually detects the 43 volts. I think my problem all along has been the CPU not detecting 43 volts and not fully booting. Please help. Driving me crazy.

#21 6 years ago

Just checked pinrepair's guide for Bally mpu boards, and here's what it says:

Sixth Flash Completed*:
The Fakers Guide: a sixth flash means the PIA at U11 (6821) and the U12 timer (5550 chip is good. No sixth flash means either PIA U11 (6821) or its socket is bad, or the U12 (555) timer is bad. Lack of the 6th flash (five flashes only) can also mean a problems with the zero-crossing detector. Often this is the MPU board's R113 resistor (2k ohm, near the J4 connector) is open. This resistor takes the 43 volt DC coil power to the zero-crossing detector circuitry and normally runs hot. Hence it may eventually go open, so check it if only 5 flashes from the LED are seen. Thanks to Ray J. for this tip.

#22 6 years ago

On baby pacman and granny and the Gators the mpu skips the 6th flash because there are no score displays so the 6th flash I am talking about is actually the 7th flash on regular pinball machines.

#23 6 years ago

It has to be something in the Granny cabinet. I can put the mpu board from baby pacman that gets all 6 of its flashes in its cabinet in granny and it only gets 5 just like the new mpu in granny. I can put granny mpu in baby pacman and it gets all 6 flashes. Is there a connection on the mpu that aids in detecting the 43 volts. The 43 volts is everywhere it is suppose to be as far as coils but the mpu is not detecting it.

#24 6 years ago

Ah, i see what you mean. That is weird! As you said, it definitely appears to be something specific to the granny cab. Have you tried capguntrooper's suggestion?

#25 6 years ago

Yeah I have disconnected the coin door completely and the playfield completely.

#26 6 years ago

When i disconnected both the coin door and playfield everything was still the same.

#27 6 years ago

The last MPU LED flash is related to the zero crossing power detection.
According to the schematics on this -133 MPU board, the signal used for zero crossing detection is the switched illumination power (6.5V) that enters the MPU board at pin 15 on connector J1 J4. This game does not use 43V for zero crossing like Ballys -35 MPU games.

Biffbar already mentioned details of this in post #02 above.

Are you measuring around 6 volts at TP3 on the MPU board? (this is the zero crossing signal) i.e. is the 6.5VDC switched illumination power in this cabinet reaching the MPU board?

#28 6 years ago

Quench, thanks. Can you explain to me where and how you seen this on schematic. "According to the schematics on this -133 MPU board, the signal used for zero crossing detection is the switched illumination power (6.5V) that enters the MPU board at pin 15 on connector J1" I am trying to learn to read these schematics better. I just don't see how you got that. Thanks

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballman3:

Can you explain to me where and how you seen this on schematic.

Arrggh, sorry I keep confusing MPU J4 with J1. I've edited the post above and changed it to pin 15 of J4.

This is a tricky one with the poor quality scan/schematic, not helped by the vague details in the schematic.

First diagram below is the online scan of the Granny and the Gators -133 MPU schematic.
Second diagram is a clearer scan of the GoldBall -133 MPU schematic.

Pin 15 on J4 of the MPU schematics is listed as "SW ILL ØA". This is the Zero Crossing input signal to the MPU board.
If you look at the "wiring diagram" in the schematics, the MPU J4-15 is listed as a solid grey wire "ØA From Playfield". On the same wiring diagram look at the three top left tables showing intermediate connectors in the harness. You will see the "ØA Z XING" grey wire on the left most table, the third left table also has a grey wire marked "POWER LITE" from "ØA" which I presume is from the transformer/rectifier board which unfortunately is not in the online schematics.

If you look at the schematics on any Bally -35 MPU board, pin 15 of J4 is listed as 43V. Not the case with the -133 MPU boards.

.
Granny and the Gators -133 MPU schematicGranny and the Gators -133 MPU schematic
GoldBall -133 MPU schematicGoldBall -133 MPU schematic

#30 6 years ago

TP3 is measuring 5.3 V also pin 15 of J4 is measuring 5.3 V

#31 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballman3:

TP3 is measuring 5.3 V also pin 15 of J4 is measuring 5.3 V

There's a diode (CR52) between these points, Pin 15 of J4 should be measuring slightly higher.

What voltage do you measure along the common bare wire connected to the base of each switched feature lamp on the playfield? 5.3V or 6.5V or other? We're after the power voltage on the switched feature lamps, not G.I. lamps.

After the MPU LED flashes on boot up, does the MPU LED then go dim or stay off completely?

If you've got a logic probe, does it indicate pulsing at pin 18 of U10 on the MPU board?
On the MPU schematic at the top where the Zero Crossing Detector is, do you measure approximately the correct voltages around U14 as listed on the schematics? See below:

Do you have an actual manual? If yes, any chance you can scan the transformer/rectifier schematic page?

Granny_ZeroCrossing.jpgGranny_ZeroCrossing.jpg

#32 6 years ago

Granny lives. Thank you so much for your help. I was rechecking the voltage on fuses under the playfield and it all of a sudden booted up. It was the 6.5 volt fuses not making good contact. I replaced the fuse block and put in all new fuses. It has booted up every time since. Now I just have a few other things to fix. Thanks again

#33 6 years ago

That's awesome! Good catch! I finally got to play a Granny on location recently for $0.25 a game. It was really awkward at first, but once i got the hang of it, it was a blast! The pinball was surprisingly snappy and fun to play. Good luck with yours!

3 months later
#34 5 years ago

pinballman3 hey man, just seeing if you got your g&g up and running. Just picked one up a few days ago. Down the street from ya here in Owensboro.
Ed

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