(Topic ID: 200502)

Somebody explain Bitcoin to me


By Pinballlew

2 years ago



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    #251 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pintucky:

    I just opened an account with GDAX with the intentions of buying some Bitcoin.
    Are you telling us (me) that THEY will be the source of the 1099?
    I noticed they needed my Social Security Number and was surprised. I thought one of the main advantages of these crypto-currencies was the ability to stay under the radar and remain anonymous. NO?
    Thanks for any comments.
    Mike in Kentucky

    I've only been in GDAX for about 3 months. I neither know, nor care, if they send a 1099. I have no interest in "evading" income taxes as I already have processes in place, completely within the IRS code, to legally "avoid" income taxes. I will not be explaining this statement any further. Consult with an accountant or other financial professional for additional information.

    I neither know, nor care, about being anonymous, flying under the radar, avoiding a paper trail, etc., as I have no ill intent or will. For those seeking anonymity, do your research. There are ways to accomplish this.

    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    Something tells me that paying your training fees would be worth it.

    That just means I've convinced you that I have a clue what I'm doing. I really don't.

    Remember, I'm not trying to "steer the horse to water". I don't advise that anybody get involved. I'm only providing what very little information I've acquired as well as my methodology in speculating this market.

    #252 2 years ago
    Quoted from guyincognito:

    Did they ask you to upload a picture of your drivers license?

    First, thank you for that lengthy reply.

    Yes, they required that I uploaded a picture of my driver's license. Problem is, I have ditched all my fancy Windows 10's, and other versions and am quite comfortable using my ancient XP. My laptop doesn't have the capability of taking said pictures. And no, I don't have a cell phone that will do such things. I still use an old flip-phone and am happy with it! And in retrospect, maybe this is a good thing. I think it is an omen that I should not buy into this 'investing'.

    I was VERY anxious to dive into this Bitcoin thing, making a one-time $5,000 deposit/purchase and then forgetting it for a couple of years (or watching it until it gained to an amount that would inspire me to 'cash in'). HOWEVER, after doing hours and hours of research, Coinbase, GDAX and others have a nasty rap sheet on doing unscrupulous things with accounts, like freezing them, 'losing' them, not allowing access, and accounts disappearing. I have yet to find an exchange that is easy to use, doesn't charge a fortune in fees, and doesn't play games with the investments.

    There are SCORES of forum threads on Google, where people are losing deposits in the labyrinth of these services and having no recourse of finding their money.

    There are some good people on this Pinside thread, who I no doubt have figured out safe ways to interact with this crypto currency thing, but I am finding it too difficult of a pathway to tread. For the time-being, I'm on 'hold'. Too many computer programs associated with all these 'coins' developing every minute of the day; too complex for my choices. There are LAYERS AND LAYERS of this exchange stuff. So much, it is mind-numbing to try and cipher!!!

    #253 2 years ago
    Quoted from ExtremePinball:

    I neither know, nor care, about being anonymous,

    And neither do I!!! I merely wanted to know if and HOW they send you a 1099 and the accountability of this type of currency. I didn't establish that I was trying to evade Income Taxes. When tax time comes, I wanted to know how to treat any gains I received, if any.

    I also thought the purpose of said currencies was to loose the ties that binds us to government controls. Nefarious outcomes did not apply to my questions. Trying to understand the 'mechanics'. That's all.

    #254 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pintucky:

    First, thank you for that lengthy reply.
    Yes, they required that I uploaded a picture of my driver's license. Problem is, I have ditched all my fancy Windows 10's, and other versions and am quite comfortable using my ancient XP. My laptop doesn't have the capability of taking said pictures. And no, I don't have a cell phone that will do such things. I still use an old flip-phone and am happy with it! And in retrospect, maybe this is a good thing. I think it is an omen that I should not buy into this 'investing'.
    I was VERY anxious to dive into this Bitcoin thing, making a one-time $5,000 deposit/purchase and then forgetting it for a couple of years (or watching it until it gained to an amount that would inspire me to 'cash in'). HOWEVER, after doing hours and hours of research, Coinbase, GDAX and others have a nasty rap sheet on doing unscrupulous things with accounts, like freezing them, 'losing' them, not allowing access, and accounts disappearing. I have yet to find an exchange that is easy to use, doesn't charge a fortune in fees, and doesn't play games with the investments.
    There are SCORES of forum threads on Google, where people are losing deposits in the labyrinth of these services and having no recourse of finding their money.
    There are some good people on this Pinside thread, who I no doubt have figured out safe ways to interact with this crypto currency thing, but I am finding it too difficult of a pathway to tread. For the time-being, I'm on 'hold'. Too many computer programs associated with all these 'coins' developing every minute of the day; too complex for my choices. There are LAYERS AND LAYERS of this exchange stuff. So much, it is mind-numbing to try and cipher!!!

    It's actually much easier than it seems. I've done about 10 or so transactions through Coinbase and haven't had any issues. I actually just made my bi-weekly purchase this morning. When I get home, I'll send them to my Trezor and back in the safe it goes for another 2 weeks. Once it's on my Trezor, Coinbase can delete my account for all I care.

    If you change your mind, I'd recommend buying a hardware wallet, purchasing your $5,000 in crypto and transferring your coins to your hardware wallet. Once that's done, you're in complete control of your coins. Coinbase can't freeze, lose, delete, etc once you hold the private keys on your device.

    #255 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballophobe:

    But ultimately. I think my question is. Why use bitcoin vs established electronic services? Is it because it’s a universal currency?

    That's a good question, and I don't have a good answer for that because I wouldn't use it right now in place of electronic or physical USD. I think there are two problems that prevent it. The first is usability. Right now, it's very difficult for an average person to deal with the digital wallets, acquire Bitcoin, manage addresses, and actually spend them. There's going to have to be a lot of effort expended into making this stuff intuitive. Scanning QR codes with Bitcoin addresses is not a final solution, in my opinion.

    The bigger problem is that Bitcoin today is too volatile to serve as a useful currency. Most people that would treat Bitcoin as a practical currency aren't going to want to be paid $1000 worth of BTC only to have it be worth $800 a couple hours later. Similarly, I don't want to pay $40 worth of Bitcoin for pizza only to have it be worth several hundred or thousands of dollars in a few years (first documented Bitcoin purchase was for two Papa Johns pizzas for 10,000 BTC). I wouldn't want to provide a loan to someone for any amount of Bitcoin that would come back to me valued at a fraction of what it was when I lent it, and just the same I wouldn't want to lend an amount of Bitcoin if it would be worth several times the lending amount when owed back to me, because how would the lendee afford to pay it?

    Bitcoin's market cap is nearing $100 billion, but even that amount is still too small to match its current and growing interest, which I admit is largely fueled by speculation. I read that Bitcoin's user base doubles every 18 months. That's part of the reason we keep seeing dramatic rises in BTC prices. There's still untapped demand. Until Bitcoin can reach its maximum capacity for demand, which keeps growing with more awareness, it will not be able to stabilize and convert from a speculative asset to practical currency, so we will continue to see wild fluctuations in assumed value.

    #256 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    also how embarrassing is it for you that you were so upset by someone's posts

    Hhhoookayy.

    #257 2 years ago

    10k by Christmas

    #258 2 years ago

    Not an insane estimate.

    #259 2 years ago

    I wasn't paying attention today and BTC crossed over the $6,000 mark. Won't be much longer before 1 BTC = MSRP of a new Stern Pro.

    #260 2 years ago

    Here's my 2c on Bitcoin

    Firstly, from an environmental and ethical standpoint, I wouldn't touch Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole. The amount of electricity used by Bitcoin is horrifying, see https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

    - Consumes the same amount of electricity as Ecuador
    - 7 US households could be powered for a day with the electricity used by one Bitcoin transaction
    - 2,000,000+ US households could be powered by the electricity used by Bitcoin

    No doubt blockchain is a clever idea for security of financial transactions, but really, whoever came up with Bitcoin as a currency should be awarded the ig Nobel prize for stupidity, if they have one. The transactional efficiency is so awful in terms of energy cost, I don’t see how it can ever be sustainable. Ethereum looks like it has the same problem.

    I found a video somewhere of the inside of a Chinese Bitcoin mine. I had this idea it would be a modern, clean, Google-like data centre humming away. It was some f-ing idiot who had leased the second floor of a crumbling building in the back blocks of China, and it was filled with shelves and shelves of mining computers, fans whirring, cables like spaghetti, the whole thing was a third rate ramshackle operation with an electricity bill of $80,000 a month, courtesy of coal-burning power plants. Mankind has enough ways to rape the environment in the name of greed, I don’t see why we need another one.

    Anyway, mini-rant over.

    The problem I see with Bitcoin as a currency is that there are only 21 million of them (correct?). Of course you can own fractions of a Bitcoin, but it’s still a finite number…(unless they start allowing smaller and smaller fractions of a bitcoin, in which case isn’t that the same thing as printing more traditional currency?)

    For it to be successful as a currency, it needs to be useful to people to buy goods and services. (The PDF listing places that currently take Bitcoin is a joke, when you have to have some obscure English Pub on the list, you’re clearly padding it). Businesses that sell goods and services accept specific methods of payment because they believe doing so will make it easier for people to do business with them. With a finite number of individuals holding Bitcoins there is little incentive for them to hop on board. Meanwhile, as Bitcoin holders want good and services that they can’t pay for with Bitcoin, they will at some point have to cash out in USD (or local currency), further reducing the number of Bitcoin holding individuals, and further reducing the incentive for merchants to accept them. If you don’t have as many people coming “on-board” as you do “cashing out”, Bitcoins are simply going to tend to pool in Exchanges, and like a giant game of pass the parcel, it will be a case of not being the one stuck with all of them.

    #261 2 years ago
    Quoted from lemonski:

    Here's my 2c on Bitcoin
    Firstly, from an environmental and ethical standpoint, I wouldn't touch Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole. The amount of electricity used by Bitcoin is horrifying, see https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

    I do like the one bullet point you left out from your link.

    Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption = 0.10%

    Might want to jump on a different “this is bad for the planet” campaign.

    #262 2 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption = 0.10%

    You don't think that sounds HUGE? I do; For one cryptocurrency to consume that much energy seems a bit ludicrous.

    Not that their aren't known cures for this issue already.

    #264 2 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    I do like the one bullet point you left out from your link.
    Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption = 0.10%
    Might want to jump on a different “this is bad for the planet” campaign.

    I LOL'd!!

    You're trying to argue that .1% of the GLOBAL energy consumption being spent on a SINGLE THING that all it does is validate itself... is trivial??

    Convert energy into something you think matters... That's like saying if you killed 7.6 MILLION people (0.1% of the world) it would be insigificant to look at.

    Anything that even registers at the GLOBAL level is not trivially small.

    #265 2 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    So you learned everything you needed to know about Bitcoin in 24hrs? Impressive.

    Thanks. I'm a fast learner. I read a lot and talked to people with better knowledge than my own. Then I used the information I obtained to come to a conclusion. I learned more in a day repeatedly in medical school.

    The whole thing is a game for the people invested. There are two aspects. The first is to convince people it is a viable currency of the future to get more investors. The second is to be the first to sell on the cusp of the inevitable crash.

    #266 2 years ago
    Quoted from TRAMD:

    Thanks. I'm a fast learner. I read a lot and talked to people with better knowledge than my own. Then I used the information I obtained to come to a conclusion. I learned more in a day repeatedly in medical school.
    The whole thing is a game for the people invested. There are two aspects. The first is to convince people it is a viable currency of the future to get more investors. The second is to be the first to sell on the cusp of the inevitable crash.

    You couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of such a complex subject as bitcoin. Graduating medical school hardly shows you have the intelligence to grasp such concepts.
    Best to leave it to the "experts" on here.

    #267 2 years ago
    Quoted from vicjw66:

    You couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of such a complex subject as bitcoin. Graduating medical school hardly shows you have the intelligence to grasp such concepts.
    Best to leave it to the "experts" on here.

    #268 2 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    I do like the one bullet point you left out from your link.
    Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption = 0.10%
    Might want to jump on a different “this is bad for the planet” campaign.

    No, I'll stick to this one thanks. 0.10% of the worlds electricity consumption to create something that can be done as well or better by traditional currency is indefensible.

    I'd rather see electricity used to heat 7 US households for a day than provide some plonker with an e-wallet a way to buy bangers and mash at an English pub.

    #269 2 years ago
    Quoted from vicjw66:

    Best to leave it to the "experts" on here.

    Right!

    That's all I'm saying too. Besides, I already know that if I fail at this Bitcoin thing, I can always lower my station in life and get into something stupid like theoretical physics, or, yuck, medicine.

    -2
    #270 2 years ago
    Quoted from lemonski:

    Here's my 2c on Bitcoin
    Firstly, from an environmental and ethical standpoint, I wouldn't touch Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole. The amount of electricity used by Bitcoin is horrifying, see https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
    - Consumes the same amount of electricity as Ecuador
    - 7 US households could be powered for a day with the electricity used by one Bitcoin transaction
    - 2,000,000+ US households could be powered by the electricity used by Bitcoin
    No doubt blockchain is a clever idea for security of financial transactions, but really, whoever came up with Bitcoin as a currency should be awarded the ig Nobel prize for stupidity, if they have one. The transactional efficiency is so awful in terms of energy cost, I don’t see how it can ever be sustainable. Ethereum looks like it has the same problem.
    I found a video somewhere of the inside of a Chinese Bitcoin mine. I had this idea it would be a modern, clean, Google-like data centre humming away. It was some f-ing idiot who had leased the second floor of a crumbling building in the back blocks of China, and it was filled with shelves and shelves of mining computers, fans whirring, cables like spaghetti, the whole thing was a third rate ramshackle operation with an electricity bill of $80,000 a month, courtesy of coal-burning power plants. Mankind has enough ways to rape the environment in the name of greed, I don’t see why we need another one.
    Anyway, mini-rant over.
    The problem I see with Bitcoin as a currency is that there are only 21 million of them (correct?). Of course you can own fractions of a Bitcoin, but it’s still a finite number…(unless they start allowing smaller and smaller fractions of a bitcoin, in which case isn’t that the same thing as printing more traditional currency?)
    For it to be successful as a currency, it needs to be useful to people to buy goods and services. (The PDF listing places that currently take Bitcoin is a joke, when you have to have some obscure English Pub on the list, you’re clearly padding it). Businesses that sell goods and services accept specific methods of payment because they believe doing so will make it easier for people to do business with them. With a finite number of individuals holding Bitcoins there is little incentive for them to hop on board. Meanwhile, as Bitcoin holders want good and services that they can’t pay for with Bitcoin, they will at some point have to cash out in USD (or local currency), further reducing the number of Bitcoin holding individuals, and further reducing the incentive for merchants to accept them. If you don’t have as many people coming “on-board” as you do “cashing out”, Bitcoins are simply going to tend to pool in Exchanges, and like a giant game of pass the parcel, it will be a case of not being the one stuck with all of them.

    That's quite a diatribe there. I hope you didn't "invest" too much time into it.

    It's a shame that you failed to note the following, which is directly in your own quoted source.

    *******************************************************************************************
    "Energy consumption model and key assumptions

    Even though the total network hashrate can easily be calculated, it is impossible to tell what this means in terms of energy consumption as there is no central register with all active machines (and their exact power consumption). "
    *******************************************************************************************

    Now, I might be an idiot, and I'm certainly no genius, but when calculating the "IMPOSSIBLE" (energy consumption), with the only evidence being "ESTIMATIONS" and "ASSUMPTIONS", well, quite frankly, I just call that a flat out fucking lie.

    But thanks for your 2c. I've gone ahead and invested it into more Bitcoin.

    #271 2 years ago
    Quoted from ExtremePinball:

    Now, I might be an idiot,

    The energy consumption rates are based on the base energy required to create a portion of the currency. Which isn't an impossible number. The point of mining is to act as a validator of the value of other currency in the exchange. Think of it as the pound of flesh. For adding computing power to make the calculations necessary to confirm transactions, you earn a portion of the remaining 'unconfirmed or 'new' coin.

    That means to create a coin you must confirm a large number of transactions. However your split is over the entire network of miners, all of whom are in a race to get to the last coin. This means that all transactions are spread over the entire network and so all of those mining rigs do the computation to confirm each transaction. Most computers set up for mining (more computing power means more portions) so most have multiple GPU's and CPU's to manage the calculations faster. Think of these as a Lamborghini compared to a Honda. More powerful but also gets single digit gas mileage. Now imagine the energy of tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of Lambos all trying to cover their square inch of pavement to get to the same destination. That's going to be a lot of gas to get nowhere. This is why bitcoin is obscenely energy inefficient. That doesn't bother some people. Even a generous estimate will show horendous consumption. Put in hondas and its still a lot, but none of the miners are using hondas, so its probably worse that most estimates can fathom.

    IMO the real scary part is the currency depends on validation but has a finite supply of remuneration to miners. At some point the last bitcoin will be mined, until then, the number of machines required to validate a transaction increase, in an attempt to slow it down. During that time there's a need to hype the currency to sustain mining growth so more transactions can take place. Much like the sun we depend upon... for energy...expands to consume its solar system before it contracts and explodes.

    The kicker, its a certain bottom drop out. When the last coin is mined or the last few become too burdensom to produce. Everyone stops their work because there's no point, meaning transaction's can't be validated ,so the coin can't be spent, and the sand castle collapses. If that's too obtuse, its Rick and Morty's micro verse but with money.

    So ride your pony and watch the waves I guess, maybe your what you say or maybe not.

    -1
    #272 2 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    The kicker, its a certain bottom drop out. When the last coin is mined or the last few become too burdensom to produce.

    Between now, and that time long into the future, the price of Bitcoin will rise exponentially. That should really upset a bunch of people.

    Quoted from VacFink:

    So ride your pony and watch the waves I guess, maybe your what you say or maybe not.

    Oh, you can believe I'm riding it alright. And regularly adding to my positions. Hell, I recently scored 2c from some random dude.

    *
    *

    I really find it hilarious how some people can get all upset over something they actually have no interest in. So I can play this game all day, every day. Laughing all the way.
    *
    *
    *

    Here's a fun fact: I have invested less than 2% into Bitcoin, compared to the total amount that I've invested into pinball.

    #273 2 years ago
    Quoted from ExtremePinball:

    I really find it hilarious how some people can get all upset over something they actually have no interest in

    Lemonski isn't questioning the value of the investment, but its cost, specifically in resources consumed to create the coin and sustain its use through transactions and that the cost increases in proportion to the value.

    As the coins become more limited and the number of transactions increase the amount of computers needed to do that increases exponentially. That consumes electrical power.

    There's no shortage, yet, of energy in most locals. But there is always a cost. Its the pollution created by the power plants, the space lost to less polluting types of energy, and the cost of energy to consumers as it increases to curb the rising demand as it reaches limit of the grids.

    Paper money doesn't take that kind of toll. Nothing's perfect but your arguing to lemonski that there isn't an impact and that you can't calculate the energy used.

    That matters to lemonski as it does to me, and its exactly why he's upset about a thing he 'has no interest in' affecting what he does have an interest in. I can understand and respect that.

    #274 2 years ago
    Quoted from ExtremePinball:

    That's quite a diatribe there. I hope you didn't "invest" too much time into it.
    It's a shame that you failed to note the following, which is directly in your own quoted source.
    *******************************************************************************************
    "Energy consumption model and key assumptions
    Even though the total network hashrate can easily be calculated, it is impossible to tell what this means in terms of energy consumption as there is no central register with all active machines (and their exact power consumption). "
    *******************************************************************************************
    Now, I might be an idiot, and I'm certainly no genius, but when calculating the "IMPOSSIBLE" (energy consumption), with the only evidence being "ESTIMATIONS" and "ASSUMPTIONS", well, quite frankly, I just call that a flat out fucking lie.

    Nice way to put your head in the sand. Because it can't be calculated exactly, it doesn't exist, right? Very convenient for lining your own pockets without guilt.

    The video of the Chinese Bitcoin mine, the guy was spending $80,000 a month on electricity, at least some generated by coal-fired generation, helping pollute his own country. Worse yet, he had some 900 dead bitcoin mining computers sitting in pile that had failed through overheating. All destined, at best, for an e-waste recycling centre where low-paid Chinese break apart old technology in toxic conditions.

    There's no way you can spin that to be environmentally or socially responsible.

    #275 2 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    Lemonski isn't questioning the value of the investment, but its cost, specifically in resources consumed to create the coin and sustain its use through transactions and that the cost increases in proportion to the value.
    As the coins become more limited and the number of transactions increase the amount of computers needed to do that increases exponentially. That consumes electrical power.
    There's no shortage, yet, of energy in most locals. But there is always a cost. Its the pollution created by the power plants, the space lost to less polluting types of energy, and the cost of energy to consumers as it increases to curb the rising demand as it reaches limit of the grids.
    Paper money doesn't take that kind of toll. Nothing's perfect but your arguing to lemonski that there isn't an impact and that you can't calculate the energy used.
    That matters to lemonski as it does to me, and its exactly why he's upset about a thing he 'has no interest in' affecting what he does have an interest in. I can understand and respect that.

    Thank you, VacFink. I couldn't have put it better myself.

    #276 2 years ago
    Quoted from ExtremePinball:

    I really find it hilarious how some people can get all upset over something they actually have no interest in. So I can play this game all day, every day. Laughing all the way.

    As opposed to someone who has a vested interest in propping up a ponze scheme at worst, an environmental waste of resources at best. Yeah, those that have no interest but pointing out the obvious are the funny ones

    #277 2 years ago
    Quoted from ExtremePinball:

    That's quite a diatribe there. I hope you didn't "invest" too much time into it.
    It's a shame that you failed to note the following, which is directly in your own quoted source.
    *******************************************************************************************
    "Energy consumption model and key assumptions
    Even though the total network hashrate can easily be calculated, it is impossible to tell what this means in terms of energy consumption as there is no central register with all active machines (and their exact power consumption). "
    *******************************************************************************************
    Now, I might be an idiot, and I'm certainly no genius, but when calculating the "IMPOSSIBLE" (energy consumption), with the only evidence being "ESTIMATIONS" and "ASSUMPTIONS", well, quite frankly, I just call that a flat out fucking lie.
    But thanks for your 2c. I've gone ahead and invested it into more Bitcoin.

    Ugh... you should be able to comprehend that this kind of estimate can be created mathematical without actually measuring the actual use - which is what the disclaimer was really saying. This is a math problem with a known methodology/solution with known computing capabilities. We know the basic consumption model for energy compute... hence the estimation.

    But I guess you think all those engineers who spec power and hvac in buildings are just fucking liars too...

    #278 2 years ago

    I'll be honest, the power issue is one I had not considered before. I'll be watching this issue.

    #279 2 years ago

    However bad the power consumption issue is now, derivative blockchain technologies could be the long needed upgrade of power utility infrastructure.

    https://hbr.org/2017/03/how-utilities-are-using-blockchain-to-modernize-the-grid

    -1
    #280 2 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    Lemonski isn't questioning the value of the investment, but its cost, specifically in resources consumed to create the coin and sustain its use through transactions and that the cost increases in proportion to the value.

    Quoted from VacFink:

    As the coins become more limited and the number of transactions increase the amount of computers needed to do that increases exponentially.

    Resulting in an ever increasing value of Bitcoin. So far you've successfully convinced me to buy more. But please, continue..

    Quoted from VacFink:

    Nothing's perfect but your arguing to lemonski that there isn't an impact and that you can't calculate the energy used.

    Ahhh, you see, once you state I argued a point that never happened, you lost the entire discussion.

    I NEVER, I repeat, NEVER stated, claimed, or inferred that there isn't an impact. Period. I only proved that his so called source, was flawed and completely fabricated.

    Quoted from lemonski:

    Nice way to put your head in the sand. Because it can't be calculated exactly, it doesn't exist, right?

    You just stated that. I've never made that claim. You lose too.

    Quoted from lemonski:

    There's no way you can spin that to be environmentally or socially responsible.

    Again, I've never made that claim. You seem to want to argue with me about claims I never made. Continue losing.

    Quoted from VacFink:

    That matters to lemonski as it does to me, and its exactly why he's upset about a thing he 'has no interest in' affecting what he does have an interest in. I can understand and respect that.

    *
    *
    *

    I honestly think that those who are truly concerned about the demon Bitcoin consuming all the world's electricity, should get off their collective asses and do something about it, rather than trying to prove to one guy on a pinball forum that we're all going to die because he bought 1 Bitcoin.

    Because that, right there, is MASSIVE a waste of time and energy. So rather than WASTE your time and energy on me. INVEST it into taking down the evil crypto-currency industry.

    Your move.

    #281 2 years ago
    Quoted from lemonski:

    No doubt blockchain is a clever idea for security of financial transactions, but really, whoever came up with Bitcoin as a currency should be awarded the ig Nobel prize for stupidity, if they have one. The transactional efficiency is so awful in terms of energy cost, I don’t see how it can ever be sustainable. Ethereum looks like it has the same problem.

    That's not really a fair characterization of Satoshi Nakamoto's invention. I think a Nobel prize is in order, but not for stupidity. Blockchain is more than just a clever idea for financial transactions, it's going to revolutionize the future of how we exchange and verify all kinds of information. I doubt even though he created it, he could have fully understood the implications and the global impact the technology would have in just a few years from its release. Bitcoin, as a proof of concept, shows the viability of blockchain technology and the potential use-case as a currency, but obviously there are some glaring flaws. These are easier to see in hindsight, especially when we are faced with the reality of a 0.1% global energy expenditure committed to Bitcoin transaction processing, and have had thousands of people able to ponder on blockchain and cryptocurrency for a decade vs. Satoshi all by his lonesome. For all Satoshi knew, Bitcoin and blockchain would be an amusement for a small group of computer nerds and never amount to anything substantial, as was the case for its few first years.

    Any way, I agree that Bitcoin as it is isn't sustainable. Proof of Work has shown that it's not a model that can reasonably scale. Ethereum also uses Proof of Work but is in a multistage process to convert to a Proof of Stake system that doesn't utilize resource heavy mining for transaction consensus, but rather selects volunteers from the pool of Ether holders (stakeholders) to validate transactions with their stake acting as their leverage in the consensus process. The guy that invented BitTorrent recently developed a concept for a cryptocurrency that provides consensus through a Proof of Space, in that consensus is achieved through usage of harddrive space rather than computationally heavy algorithms. Both systems are expected to be far more efficient and less ecologically damaging than Bitcoin's current system. Same for IOTA which I mentioned earlier. I'm sure Bitcoin will eventually fork to one of these solutions or maybe something more creative to fix this problem.

    Quoted from lemonski:

    The problem I see with Bitcoin as a currency is that there are only 21 million of them (correct?). Of course you can own fractions of a Bitcoin, but it’s still a finite number…(unless they start allowing smaller and smaller fractions of a bitcoin, in which case isn’t that the same thing as printing more traditional currency?)

    This is a deliberate feature of Bitcoin. There is the possibility in the future of dividing a Bitcoin to further levels, but that is fundamentally different than printing more money. When you print more money, you devalue the rest of the money in the pool. When you divide your existing money, it's more like a stock split; you don't lose value. In a system with ever more money added each year, you can expect your $50k under your mattress to erode in value year after year. Your spending power goes down by holding onto it; it's still $50k, but $50k x years from now has the spending power of $40k today. In a deflationary model like Bitcoin, what's more likely to erode is the amount of total Bitcoins available, as people die and forget to transfer their wallets to other people, etc. This means the value of a bitcoin in proportion to the total amount of bitcoins available will always go up, no matter what Bitcoin's price is compared to "real" money.

    #282 2 years ago
    Quoted from VacFink:

    IMO the real scary part is the currency depends on validation but has a finite supply of remuneration to miners. At some point the last bitcoin will be mined, until then, the number of machines required to validate a transaction increase, in an attempt to slow it down. During that time there's a need to hype the currency to sustain mining growth so more transactions can take place. Much like the sun we depend upon... for energy...expands to consume its solar system before it contracts and explodes.
    The kicker, its a certain bottom drop out. When the last coin is mined or the last few become too burdensom to produce. Everyone stops their work because there's no point, meaning transaction's can't be validated ,so the coin can't be spent, and the sand castle collapses. If that's too obtuse, its Rick and Morty's micro verse but with money.

    Miners are not only incentivized by freshly mined bitcoin, they are also paid transaction fees from the transactions they are processing. When the last bitcoin is mined, they will do as they do now each time the mining complexity doubles: expect more money to process transactions.

    #283 2 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    I do like the one bullet point you left out from your link.
    Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption = 0.10%
    Might want to jump on a different “this is bad for the planet” campaign.

    I agree with astropin. .1% of the worlds electricity is used for this bullshit? That is a massive amount of wasted power. It's not like humans are not the poster animal for unnecessary waste on the planet thou. :/

    #284 2 years ago
    Quoted from ExtremePinball:

    I honestly think that those who are truly concerned about the demon Bitcoin consuming all the world's electricity, should get off their collective asses and do something about it,

    I do all the time, no reason to stop when I'm on Pinside. I'm not deluded or deflated by the enormity of the problem. I instead choose to focus on doing my best to chip away whenever I can and hope that while others do the same it surmounts into something bigger than I could have done on my own.

    Adding to this discussion, as I have here, is part of that. It isn't directed at you, but more appropriately includes you, because you openly admit your a contributor to a problem you know and understand exists without remorse or accepting any responsibility. I can hope that what is discussed might change your opinion, even a tiny bit, then its worth it. But more likely, as part of a larger discussion, it changes or adds points of consideration to to others.

    Just as you encourage me, I'll return the sentiment. Keep doing what your doing. It helps my points in my thinking as yours do for you.

    #285 2 years ago
    Quoted from XXVII:

    Miners are not only incentivized by freshly mined bitcoin, they are also paid transaction fees from the transactions they are processing. When the last bitcoin is mined, they will do as they do now each time the mining complexity doubles: expect more money to process transactions.

    Understood but didn't want to muddy the point to cover all of the possibilities. The meltdown is still a factor. Because the resource cost of supporting a mined out currency is so extraordinarily high, the fees would be exorbitant to a point that limits transaction and the inevitable collapse.

    Maybe there are measures to avoid that or delay it, but unlike a currency that is backed by a nation or government, this is effectively backed by its security, and that's tied to the exponential growth of the complexity of the algorithm that created the total coin set. At its end state its a bloated inefficient mess. Like a pyramid scheme or a tapped our placer stream, the miners and the transactions move to a new currency in a less bloated state. That inevitably leaves winners and losers, and IMO more of the latter since so few will understand how to get there or avoid the anvil as it drops.

    #286 2 years ago

    Sure...but Bitcoin could switch to "proof of stake" vs the current proof of work. Much like Etherum. There are obviously other options as well and most likely some new ones will come along.
    It wouldn't necessarily involve a fork either...as long as there is a consensus.
    Although that may or may not be difficult until the last coin is mined (approximately 2040).
    Added over 2 years ago: Addendum - the last coins will be mined by 2140...not 2040.

    Added over 2 years ago: Addendum - the last coins will be mined by 2140...not 2040.

    #287 2 years ago

    If this were a sci fi novel, the world's paper, gold, mainstream electronic currency would all collapse in the year 2040, leaving only Bitcoin.

    But clearly our economies are strong and infinite.

    I don't "get" Bitcoin, but I also don't use Facebook. I'm not afraid of progress, just false profits (see what I did there?).

    #288 2 years ago

    What is Bitcoin?

    Simply put, the smart money is already in and the dumb money is currently chasing...

    #289 2 years ago
    Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

    What is Bitcoin?
    Simply put, the smart money is already in and the dumb money is currently chasing...

    Sure...because you know exactly what's going to happen.

    -2
    #290 2 years ago
    Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

    What is Bitcoin?
    Simply put, the smart money is already in and the dumb money is currently chasing...

    Bitcoin started in 2009, and is expected to take until 2040 to mine the last coin. We're 8 years into an expected 31 year run.

    With Bitcoin at about $6,050 today, the absolute most amount of money I could potentially lose is my initial investment of about $5,000.

    The amount of money that could potentially be made in that same time is unimaginable.

    I'm cool taking my chances.

    But I'm interested in hearing your opinion on how many years the stock market will continue its 9 year bull run, and whether you believe that "the smart money is already in and the dumb money is currently chasing..." in the United States Stock Market.

    #291 2 years ago
    Quoted from RonSS:

    But clearly our economies are strong and infinite.

    Agreed. Adding a couple Trillion dollars per year to a current $20 Trillion dollar +++ federal debt is obviously sustainable into eternity. Then once you add in interest and inflation, you're really building on solid financial base.

    #292 2 years ago

    Bitcoin is BS there is no reason for it to be worth $6000.00 dollars US. I defy anyone to explain why BTC is worth more than some block chain BS that has been reinvented many times over in other “coins” . That said I worked with a fellow that was mining BTC from the beginning. Mid 40’s now retired. Took a bunch of BTC and converted to USD kept some BS BTC and traded for other BS coins. Obviously smarter than me!This is nothing but a ponzi scheme and will likely climb to over 10 K or more. You need to have luck and get out before the last sucker buys in. That could likely be a few years away or tomorrow. Good luck to all.

    #293 2 years ago

    How many bitcoins have been mined? Does the mining process always create exactly one Bitcoin? How many coins are being mined in a day/week/month/etc? Is this rate slowing down due to complexity of solving the equations or speeding up due to increased computation power usage?

    #294 2 years ago
    Quoted from TRAMD:

    How many bitcoins have been mined? Does the mining process always create exactly one Bitcoin? How many coins are being mined in a day/week/month/etc? Is this rate slowing down due to complexity of solving the equations or speeding up due to increased computation power usage?

    Approximately 16 million have been mined. I don't know the current rate but when the rate of mining increases the difficulty soon adjusts to essentially keep the rate of production on pace. A pace that puts the last coins being mined by 2040 (approximately).

    #295 2 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    Approximately 16 million have been mined. I don't know the current rate but when the rate of mining increases the difficulty soon adjusts to essentially keep the rate of production on pace. A pace that puts the last coins being mined by 2040 (approximately).

    So around 25 per hour...wow.

    #296 2 years ago

    Please keep contributing to this thread. I'm learning a lot.

    I have reversed my opinion and now wish to participate and buy some Bitcoin. However, I'm having a tough time doing it.

    I registered on Coinbase and then went to GDAX to register there for the no fee purchases. But, I've run into a stumbling block. It requires me to 'take a picture' of my driver's license. I'm using a Windows XP without a camera built in. So, I can't do it on my laptop. I have an old fashioned flip phone and it obviously does not have this ability. So . . . I can't go any farther. And I do NOT want to go to any other exchanges or do the peer-to-peer stuff.

    IF I use my sons smartphone, how can I tap onto my previous account setup? Do I go online with that phone, type in the web address of GDAX and will be able to continue on?

    Or, do I have to set up a totally new account through that phone?

    Or, am I required to use an App to get to my previous account site. And again, will I have to set up a new account?

    If I end up setting up a totally new account, will I have to delete that old account to begin this process? And how do you delete it?

    My son is adept at using that phone, and I am completely lost! So, you can see my conundrum.

    Anyone with patience, please respond. It's tough being a 'newbie'!!!

    Thanks,
    Mike in Kentucky

    #297 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pintucky:

    take a picture' of my driver's license

    You can have your son take the picture and send it to your email. However if your still using XP its like using a glass jar as a piggy bank. I wouldn't take on any secure or financial information on something that unsecure. IMO step one, invest in a modern computer with appropriate protection against malware.

    #298 2 years ago

    Seconded. WindowsXP is not secure.

    #299 2 years ago

    Thanks to both of you Vac, and pez.

    I have described things in length to a PM received from VacFink in this regard. It boils down to me having several more advanced laptops. About every OS out there, including Linux. I prefer XP for my daily usage because it beats the pants off all the others for usability. I've had this argument many times with others, especially "Crash" here on Pinside. He is a good friend who comes to visit often. I'm 70 and he is in his early 20's. You can imagine the arguments we have! Ha.

    I'm not going to purchase Bitcoin on any platform that is not secure. I'm still in the learning phase. I wanted to do the preliminary setup on my XP just for the ease of using that system. However, since I can't go any farther with it, we are now going to go with the smart phone. "We", as in me and my son.

    The modest amount I am going to 'invest' will not hurt me if I lose it. And 'pez' . . . I read every one of your emails and you make many valid points on this thread. You are a pretty smart guy.

    I appreciate your help and concern, guys.
    Mike in Kentucky

    #300 2 years ago

    Bitcoin makes looking at pinball as an investment a wiser move. Lol.

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