(Topic ID: 103698)

Some Billet Drop Targets I'm Working on

By NextoPin

9 years ago


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#1 9 years ago

After some initial testing these are my current revision. There is still some more tweaks to make before they are ready for prime time. I will be offering them blank with a polished mirror finish or standard machined finish ready for your games stock decal.

The graphics are currently just for testing but I think we will be able to offer some designs for an additional fee but we are staying away from any licensed art for now. Designs like stars, bullseye's, playing cards etc should be doable.

They are very lightweight (~12g) and durability has not been an issue. This will be the last drop target you ever buy for your machine.

Each target is machined from a single piece of half inch thick 6061 aircraft grade aluminum.

PM me if you would be interested in purchasing a set for your machine and I'll put you on a list for when they are ready. I don't have any pricing yet but we are hoping to keep the price around $10 each. The price could come down if I can get enough orders, Currently we only have the Williams type drop target but if there is enough interest we could make other types such as rollover targets and Stern targets.

Please reply with any feedback or questions. I should have a picture of a blank one posted this weekend.

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#5 9 years ago
Quoted from castlesteve:

better get your website up and running quick. You are going to be busy with orders

That would be nice, but they are on the pricy side considering a plastic one is about $3 and will last a good long time, I think the ones in my machine were the originals.

Even with the good deal I'm getting from my machinist friend, I'll be lucky if I break even on the first 100, but I wanted chrome targets and couldn't find them, so I thought others might want some too.

I think the polished blanks with the stock decals will look sharp also, We even machined in a guide for the decal so it will line up nice just like a stock target.

#6 9 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

That is a really cool idea! Nice work!
Might I suggest a clear Mylar sticker over the face? That billet will get dinged to shite without IMHO.

This is not soft aluminum, it's a pretty hard alloy. From the testing I have done it should be fine as long as you keep your balls clean

EDIT: It's a good idea though, and I may put some on before shipping to protect them and it could be removed if someone didn't want it on there.

#7 9 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Yeah, no crap. If these are suitable to replace those red/pink system 7/9 drop targets, which are basically unobtainium as NOS parts, this is huge, IMO.

These are system 11. I'm not sure of compatibility with system 7/9 but if I can get an example I will make them, they should be very similar.

#9 9 years ago

Frax,

PM's aren't working for me at the moment, I'll try again in a bit. Try sending me a PM, maybe I can reply.

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from moto_cat:

Will there be any Stern drops ? These would be cool in Metallica .

I'm kind of testing the waters right now but Stern targets are on the list, I just don't have a Stern machine to develop and test them with. I have a few friends with a Metallica but for some reason they won't let me borrow a target for a few weeks, go figure

I'll try and find an example and see how different they are from the ones I'm working on. Should be doable but it won't be for a couple months.

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from Squeakman:

I would love to have a set of these for my system 9 Sorcerer. My one question would be is there any way to offer colors? I have seen stuff in billet aluminum that is colored. Would love some red ones for Sorcerer. I be happy with the polished though. Very original idea, I am sure you will sell a ton of them.

What you are referring to is called anodizing and it's an electroplating that actually dies the aluminum. We've talked about it, the problem is cost. Every change or option costs money to develop and test. I don't know how well anodized aluminum would hold up to being beat on with a steel ball. General consensus is that is SHOULD hold up fine, but I wouldn't feel comfortable selling one unless I know.

Then you have to factor how much the equipment costs, and the chemicals for each color, disposing of the waste etc. etc.

The best bet would be to buy the blank one (or engraved) and take it someplace that does plating and they might be able to put them in with another batch they are doing for a small fee.

I agree though, they would look sweet. I wanted to do black anodized for my BK2K and then have the design machined in but it just wasn't feasible.

I have a friend with a machine shop and he's agreed to run these between jobs so it's not a mass production type of setup, each target is made individually, one at a time to ensure the best quality. I'm sure someone could mass produce these and sell them alot cheaper than I can, I'm just trying to break even and have enough left over for the gas to drive out and pick them up when they are ready.

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from Blackjacker:

Nice. If you run Data East targets (are these the same as Stern?) I'd be in for at least a dozen.

Does anyone know if the Stern targets are the same? If anyone has a good used one to send me I can see what it would take to make them. If they are the same as Stern targets then I'll be making some eventually.

#22 9 years ago
Quoted from Tmezel:

I have extra. Not all the same.

I'm going to have to find a part number interchange list so I can make sure I don't give someone a target that won't work in their machine. Are all the DE stand up drop targets the same?

Thanks Mr. Mezel. I'll send you a PM once the forum gods allow me to do so.

#23 9 years ago

PM's are working again. If you sent me a PM about this, please send it again. Thanks.

#27 9 years ago

MezelMods has offered to send me a Stern target so I'll see what I can do. It's taken about a month to get where I'm at with this one so it won't be right away, but Stern targets are definitely on the list.

Now I just need to talk my friends into letting me take the target banks apart on their new Sterns

#30 9 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

Dang it... I've had this very project backburnered for some time and you've beaten me to it, and done a better job frankly lol. Very nice work!

I missed this comment, sorry.

It happens to me all the time too, but that doesn't mean you can't still make them or put your own spin on it. Like I said, there's really no money to be made on these for me, I'll be lucky to break even and any money I do make will be going towards design time to make the DE and Stern models.

The EM's might be a place to start, those games have lots of drop targets, and so far, nobody has asked for a rollover target so those are wide open also and in a lot of games. Mirrored rollovers in a Centaur would be sick.

All the credit for the quality and craftsmanship goes to the machinist, I'm a pretty good modder but his skills and knowledge make me look like a chump.

Keep Making, just because someone else is doing it doesn't mean you can't do it better or different.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from indypinhead:

The only problem is...when anodized, the anodizing is a pain to machine...similar to case hardened steel. You'd want to use a carbide ball nose end mill to machine thru the anodizing.
Something else to consider...w/o anodizing, eventually, the aluminum will become oxidized. Kind of similar to how steel rusts w/o some type of protection. Eventually, the raw aluminum will start turning white as it ages. It might take a while, but eventually it will oxidize and not look as nice as a freshly machined/polished one.
Anodizing is a controlled oxidation process that allows you add a pigment...giving the aluminum color.

Thanks.

I've been reading about it over the last few hours, seems like DIY anodizing is possible and it's something I want to look at doing down the road. especially primary colors and black. If anyone does buy one, and later I offer them anodized they can ship back and I'll do it for free plus shipping, but that's a ways off.

From the research I've done aluminum oxidizes almost instantly when exposed to air and this layer of oxidation actually seals the aluminum and prevents further oxidation even though it is invisible to the naked eye. It's one of the reasons it's such a popular alloy. I think inside a pinball machine in a climate controlled space the finish should last as long as any of the other plated metal parts inside the machine and will remain shiny and bright for a long time. If the surface did dull, a quick polish with never-dull or mothers aluminum polish should bring it back in a matter of seconds.

A nice coat and polish of playfield wax before installation should also offer some protection, just remember to do it before you install, trying to clean or wax the target when it drops every time you touch it would be a frustrating experience lol.

#47 9 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Just in machine time and tool wear alone, you'd have a hard time to machine those at $10 each even at a rough cut, much less polished and logo carved.

That's about right except it doesn't include the logo design. I will be polishing them myself to save cost, difference will be about a buck or 2 between polished and machined.

I would love to have them anodized, I agree that they would look awesome especially if they were engraved or etched after but as you can see, I'm going to be selling them at cost, even less than cost for the first few batches and that doesn't include gas, waste, design hours, programming hours etc etc. As we refine the process, hopefully the price will come down a little and I can offer other finishes. I have some other ideas in mind for coloring but I need to do some tests to ensure durability.

If someone is interested in anodizing and engraving them please feel free to contact me and I can provide you with the targets in bulk, I imagine there would be a volume discount if enough was ordered. Might be a good side business if you already have an engraver and anodizing experience.

Right now I'm waiting on a few loaner targets and we are making a few adjustments and testing them out. There won't be anything new to post for a week or two. I'm planning on installing the other 3 targets and I'll take some pictures and post them.

Thank you everyone for the feedback and words of encouragement. Stay tuned.

Looking for suggestions on what to call them. Was thinking Alumi-Drops but that sounds like some kind of candy or medicated cough suppressant.

#51 9 years ago
Quoted from Chitownpinball:

What about stand up targets? Would love a set of polished for my T2.

I had not even thought about stand up targets. Those are typically riveted to the leaf switch, correct? Not sure if it would change the rebound or what the extra weight of aluminum would do to switch sensitivity but it's something I can look into once I'm up and going with the drop targets.

T2 does have one drop target though, correct? But I think it's a rollover drop which we haven't gotten to yet.

Now, reading all the stuff going on with Pinball Rescue I'm starting to rethink this whole thing. I'm not a company, just a fan and mediocre player who likes to tinker, If I got a letter from PPS, I'm out all my time and money. Everything is on hold for now. I'm still going to work on designs and get everything ready, but nothing will be sold without knowing for sure that I am allowed to sell. I'm not talking about the artwork here, that's pretty cut and dry, I just don't know if I'm even allowed to sell a target that works in a William's game.

#53 9 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Pretty sure all drop targets and standups are nothing you have to worry about as the general design should no longer have any protection (too old and universal).
Actually, a great idea would be to design a drop that is more universal and will work in many different applications/ era of games. Then you 100% have nothing to worry about.
You can almost be sure that you will be TOLD they are protected but from experience you can not always believe that and certain companies have been known to claim rights for things that they do not own just to try and scare people off from making any pinball parts.
For stand ups >> they are typically rivetted on. It would be a great thing for the hobby if you offered these as there are some targets that are currently hard to find (i.e. congo travicom targets off the top of my head).
I also think you are underselling what you are offering and could likely increase the price a little in order to make it profitable for you.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm not looking to make money, but I'm also not looking to pay for people to buy them, know what I mean?

I don't mind putting some of my money in to cover the up front costs, like materials, design and testing but there has to be a point where I break even at the least even if it's after 100-200 targets. I would like to charge more, but I don't think people will buy them for more.

Some pinball machines have lots of drop targets and you can buy a reliable working plastic one for about $3 each. These 'AlumiDrops' while functional are "Bling" and for me to make a profit I would have to sell them for about $15-$18 (just an estimate at this point) and that doesn't include programming the decal and applying it to the target face. So lets say it's $20 with the decal (If I can use that graphic, which I'm pretty sure I can't without paying someone). Black Knight 2000 uses 6 drop targets so it will be $120 plus shipping, Who's gonna pay that for some shiny drop targets? The market is pretty limited.

This is my first attempt to create something like this and sell it and it's a learning experience for me and that's mostly why I'm doing it. I have had cool ideas all my life and then did nothing and watch as someone else had success with them, and this time I went for it so if I make $0 I'm fine with that, I'll make a little on the next idea and people will know I make a quality item.

I'm kinda putting all this detail and 'inside baseball' out there so people understand how much these things cost, especially on a small scale. I'm getting a HUGE discount on the design and programming compared to what someone would be paying a company that specializes in prototyping and manufacturing and it still is pretty costly for a hobbiest.

I should know more in a few weeks and I'll update, nothing has changed as far as our plan, I just need to confirm a few things before I sell them. We are still going to make them in the meantime so they are ready to go.

Thanks again to all the Pinsiders for the support and encouragement.

One last thing, in response to the first reply by CastleSteve, I bought a domain name over the weekend

#56 9 years ago

I hear ya, I'd pay a pretty penny for that stupid lower wireform on my BK2K (that's next on my list after the targets).

Just picked up a target for the William's style rollover for system 9/11. Appears to be the exact same target with just the added rollover wedge on the top, the wedge doesn't appear to be any higher than the blade for the opto so I should be able to make them out of the same piece of stock, so that's good news!

I hope to have examples of Stern, System7 & DE targets this week, I'm going to look into Whysnow's suggestion of a more universal target, not sure it's possible, but man it would be nice, wouldn't it?

#58 9 years ago

PM sent.

#69 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

As long as you don't put any WMS logos or WMS artwork on them you are good.
The patents on drop targets themselves expired long ago.
-
The coolest idea in the world would be to have them waterjet or laser cut through the face so they could be backlit.............Ooooooooooooooooh
-

I already have designs for something like this. It would depend on how much material you had to take out, I don't want to do anything to compromise the structure and have something bend or dent.

Quoted from Aurich:

Laser etching after anodizing seems to me the best option as far as going nuts goes. I would think even with the extra expense that Metallica owners would line up for black targets with silver crosses.

Anodizing has been a bit of a problem. Unless I want to do it myself, which is possible, there really isn't any way to do it until I get to quantities over 500 pcs each color. We have a finish that will produce a similar if not better result and we can still engrave it to reveal the silver aluminum. I am going to offer black and Metallica targets are near the top of the list.

Laser etching is something I am looking into, but it's tricky because of the mirror surface.

I know it seems like it's taking a while, but I'm not going to sell them unless I'm sure they will last forever and look amazing.

During initial testing we noticed some wear on the face, and we expected it, it was actually less than we thought it would be. We have already made changes in the design and the finish will also play into this. We are creating a testing rig to beat the crap out of it to ensure durability will not be an issue and the target should look as good as new for a very long time.

Right now we are testing function. Making sure the target drops and resets without any issues over a long period of time. Just because you make a copy of something that works out of a different material does not mean it will function the same. Aluminum has different properties than plastic and the target banks were never designed to use a metal target. We have already made 2 design changes regarding this and are in the process of testing.

Quoted from steve-o:

Very cool stuff Nexto.
My question would be regarding the sound of the pinball striking the metal drop target. Is it noticeable at all with the glass on? I would imagine it would cause more noise that striking a soft plastic drop target. Just curious. Nice job thinking outside the box!
~Steveo

This here will be a matter of opinion. Yes they sound different and are slightly louder than a plastic target. The sound comes not from the ball hitting the target, but the target hitting the return plate when it's pulled down. We will plan to include a dampener with each target that can be installed if the owner wants to. I like the sound it makes. It kinda sounds like when someone from a 70's movie would pull out a switch blade. It's a cool satisfying sound, but with the dampener on, it's about the same as a standard target.

I know everyone wants these soon, so do I, but I want them to function properly and last a lifetime. If I am going to ask people to pay a premium for a simple drop target then they should get a premium drop target. I hope to have these shipping out in a couple different colors by Halloween. Stay tuned.

#70 9 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Possibility of heating post being made in order to fire strike a color into them??
May be a cool but cheap way to make them different?

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if it involves fire I am interested in hearing more.

#74 9 years ago
Quoted from EricR:

I tried telling him to charge $30 each citing how much we're all willing to spend on our mods without giving it much thought. As cool as these look in the machine and how well they play it seems like a fair price.
He's just too nice about it though, and wants to give the best possible deal he can without losing money (which I suppose isn't such a bad thing).

I think the people who take the initial risk on me and my idea should get a good deal. If I have to take a loss on the first couple batches in order to get them out there so people can try them and give some feedback then I think it's a good investment. After that the price will likely go up some so that I can make enough to buy more materials, create more artwork and support more types of targets.

Like I said, I don't mind charging people a premium as long as they are getting a premium item and feel like they got their money's worth. I can't wait to see these in other pinball machines. Thanks again for all the support, ideas, suggestions and encouragement.

#75 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I would tune each target, so they would sound like a doorbell as they fell.

Sick... Stop giving me ideas, I got enough to do already!

But you did just give me an idea to make custom chimes in the future!

#78 9 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_(metallurgy)
not sure of exact alloy you are using but this is the general idea

6061 aluminum currently. unfortunately you can't temper it. Stay tuned, I have color coming and I think you will really like it.

#82 9 years ago
Quoted from steve-o:

I've got another question that just came to mind: What would be your opinion on the pinballs physical condition/lifecycle due to striking a metal target? I know that designers do their utmost best to place softer materials for the ball to impact (rubber and plastic for the most part) or is this a non-issue due to the absorption of ball force of the spring that holds the target in place? Thanks!
~Steveo

Whysnow is correct, the steel ball is harder than the target, and it's smooth, if anything, it would polish the ball.

Quoted from GLModular:

This is pretty cool.
A suggestion... anyone doing this might want to replace the hardened steel washers with plastic ones (or maybe brass) to reduce friction and to eliminate possible wear on the drop target.

One step ahead of you, That's very close to what we are testing now, but it's not the washers that are the problem.

#84 9 years ago
Quoted from Chitownpinball:

8 stand up targets please.

My machine has not stand up targets, other than the drawbridge I guess, but when you buy these, do they come with the switch attached, or do you rivet them on. If I made them, I would have to have the correct switch for each machine right? They aren't universal correct?

It seems doable, machine specific themed drops would be cool.

#87 9 years ago
Quoted from Chitownpinball:

Ya, they come fully assembled....there has got to be a way around that. I wonder if I could rivet them back on myself...I have a rivet gun at work. Hmmmm.....

If I get to where I am making them, I will make them assembled as a replacement part with a factory style rivet (not a pop rivet). I wouldn't want someone to damage it, or their machine trying to get it put together. I'll keep stand up targets in mind as we go, hopefully it will be something we can do.

Quoted from Zitt:

Laser etching use CerMark:
http://www.thermark.com/content/view/28/79/
Or a Fiber Laser

Can you recommend a laser etcher, preferably something small?

#100 9 years ago

Thinking about something like this.
http://www.thermark.com/

#104 9 years ago

Proto 3 in testing. Everything below the target face has been redesigned, Really cool. This will be the last prototype for a few weeks but I will be testing finishes in the meantime.

Once I have something to show I'll post some pictures.

1 week later
#105 9 years ago

Small update.
As mentioned, testing revealed that over time, there is some ball marks that appear on the face, mostly due to it being polished, I don't think it would be as noticeable with a machined finish. All targets will require a finish coat for protection and durability. The polished aluminum will be available but will be clear coated.

Got all my equipment for the clear/color finishes, I hope to have something to show next week.

In the mean time, maybe you guys can help me decide on a few things.

Metallica Graveyard drop - These will be polished and then have the color finish with the cross engraved to reveal the aluminum. What color do you think will look best. Eventually I may offer all of them, but if you had to pick one...

Polished/clear
Satin Black
Translucent Black (kid of like a smoked chrome I'm thinking)
Candy Red/Orange, close to the shade on the album cover of Master of Puppets

I'm going to test applying the finish after the engraving, to see how it looks. if it comes out ok, what do you think about this option?

I'm still looking for a product name open to suggestions.
Alumi-Drops
NextoDrops
MetalliDrops
Drops of Sliver
Armor Drops
Candy Drops
Dead Drops

Things are starting to move along.

I am starting a pre-sale list. If you have PM'd me about these then you are already on the list. I will take orders from this list before listing them for sale. That way I can get the final version in machines and help with any unexpected issues before I start selling them. If you want to be on the list send me a PM with what machine(s) you want them for.

We are doing Williams and later Bally/Williams, Modern Stern and JJP targets first (the targets that look like the pics in the first post). As it gets closer I'll start getting in touch with people and working out the options and pricing. This doesn't commit you to anything, it just gets you on the list for pre-sale so I can contact you. Please include an email address if possible.

If you are interested in a different target type, please let me know and I'll put you on a list for that one. Data East targets likely next.

Thanks for the support!

#113 9 years ago

Vid, That was awesome!

The wife came up with the name PinDrops tonight.

1 week later
#115 9 years ago

Quick update.
I've got all my equipment and supplies to start testing finishes. Once that is done then we will be testing the finishes in a drop target assembly to ensure durability, After that, I can start working on the orders for the folks who are on the pre-sale list.

I ordered and received my Stern style drop targets. The Stern targets are quite different than the William's type that we have been working on. The targets is angled on the front and back of the rollover target and the other style is angled on the front. Because of the way we machine these, it's going to present some issues that we will need to overcome. It's all doable but will take a little time.

Once we have a durable finish, we won't need to do any durability testing on the Stern targets, so they won't take as long to develop as the current target did.

After the William's target, Stern is next.

Thanks everyone for you patience, I'm not going anywhere, I'm still working on this and I hope to have some finished targets to show you in the next few weeks.

Quoted from btw75:

Vid - Drone Drops can't work.. The Drone targets are stand up targets....
Agree with Aurich on MET. Market them MOPish and I might be interested!

Took me a minute to figure out what MOP meant lol. Metallica or ACDC will be the first stern targets because I have 2 friends that have both. I am a Metallica fan, of both the band and the game. I plan to have smoke black and a MOP style targets for Metallica. I think the ACDC will look great in chrome.

Stay tuned.

#117 9 years ago
Quoted from DefaultGen:

Who cares about WOOLY or TBL. The hype for these drop targets is real.

LOL!

I sure hope so. I've put a lot of time and effort into this, probably more than any single idea I've ever had. It's very easy for me to get caught up in the excitement and rush, I'm really having to go against my nature a bit and slow down.

The excitement and positive feedback I get from you guys really helps me alot. I'm as excited as you guys to see these out in the wild, I just need to do everything I can to make sure they will look and work great and hold up to the abuse they will take inside a pinball machine.

Because the whole point of these is to have a 'chrome-like' appearance I don't think I will be doing any solid colors unless it's custom, pretty much everything will be a translucent or candy finish with the exception of clear.

I may sell a raw aluminum one, but it would only be for applications where you would use the stock decal, without the decal or a durable finish I'm afraid they would get marked up over time.

So, I'm looking for some color ideas for stock colors. I should be able to do custom colors but I would like to have a selection of 5 or so colors onhand. Smoked chrome (translucent black) will be one of them. I think red will be a stock color as well.

To give you an idea of the finish, the red will look similar to this. The engraving will be done into the finish to reveal the aluminum.
red.jpgred.jpg

#120 9 years ago
Quoted from DefaultGen:

I've got blue LEDs on the left side of my BK2K so I'd be down with blue targets for the left and red for the center. After these I should change the KNIGHT insert lights to blue and red too if they're going to be colored! Fancy business.
I can already hear BOP saying "You look good..." about my future BK2K

bk2kleds.png 261 KB

Funny, I did the same thing but I have it the other way around because the U-turn is blue. I pulled the bulb out when I took the pictures.

The red and blue targets would look really cool. I saw someone who put green LED's under the KNIGHT inserts and it actually looked pretty good. I've been thinking about putting blue or purple LED's under the LAST CHANCE inserts, I think I might go with blue.

To me, with BK2K, The blue seems to be the 'Good' side of the game and the red is the 'Evil' or the Black Knight's side of the game. All of the red shots on the lower playfield lead to the upper playfield, and all of the blue shots lead back to the lower playfield, That's actually how I teach people the game, The red lanes get you up top.

Since last chance is against the knight, I was thinking of going blue along with SPIN and RANSOM. The only other blue insert in the game is the SKYWAY insert.

I think I stare at the playfield too much. For such a simple design, there's alot of information in there if you look at it. I thought it was all intended but I sent an email to Doug Watson and he basically said he threw it together to get Steve off his back and that he wanted the Black Knight flying on a dragon with a fantasy setting but Steve wanted the horse and lightning bolts.

Still, I think it tells a story whether he intended it or not, Good vs. Evil.

I was still unable to determine who the king is, and what his ransom is for.

#122 9 years ago
Quoted from DefaultGen:

You thought about this more than me. I thought "Hey this castle is blue, I'm going to put a blue bulb under here". I can see doing it the other way around. It's the coolest looking game ever already, hard to make it look bad.

That would make sense then. I have the early plastics with the eye on them.

bk2k_plastic.jpgbk2k_plastic.jpg
1 week later
#125 9 years ago

Prototype 3.

Both the outside targets are the latest revision, The center target is the original. most of the changes are below the playfield and are still skunkworks.

The Stern and Williams 11/WPC targets will use the same face. This means that it (Stern)will not angle forward like a stock Stern target does. The Stern targets will have the ledge on the back for the rollover, the same as the Williams rollover. The catch has been redesigned to keep the target face from dragging on the assembly (see picture). The back side still needs a bit of work to speed up machine run time, it will look different in the final version.

I didn't have time last night to put it in the machine, so over the weekend I'll take some pictures of the whole target. Then back into the machine for some endurance testing.

The last of my color coating supplies and equipment will arrive today so I hope to do some finish and color testing this weekend. The colors I got so far.

Flat Black
Satin Black
Semi-Gloss Black
Gloss Black
Translucent Black
Gloss Red
Gloss Yellow
Translucent Teal
Translucent Red
Translucent Blue
Translucent Green
Translucent Orange
Translucent Purple
Translucent Clear

unnamed.jpgunnamed.jpg
photo.JPGphoto.JPG

What do you think of these names

USA Drops
AmeriDrops
Bomb Drops

Stay Tuned..More to come.

#126 9 years ago

I wasn't able to work on this much this weekend due to the holiday and parties and work around the house but I should have something to show this week. I didn't even get to install my targets back into my machine and play

I did get all my equipment set up though, so if I'm lucky, I'll be testing some colors tonight.

#128 9 years ago

I think I might just call them Billet Drop Targets Tho "Mutha fucking hardcore drops" does have a nice ring to it.

Didn't get to testing last night, spent the whole night running around town, rearranging my shop and working on some fixtures. I will have some color samples to show this week, but it might not be until Thurs-Friday.

Sorry for the delay. Won't be long now.

#132 9 years ago
Quoted from SeeburgSam:

Wow, dude.
I don't get too much into the pimping (or posting), but those are bad ass.
My love of fabricating stuff (like unobtanium 50's Seeburg pieces or race car stuff) is second only to my love of these stupid machines and it never, ever struck me to come up with something like this.
Fantastic, man.
SS

Thank you. Wait until you see them in glorious technicolor!

#135 9 years ago
Quoted from Blairally:

I'm really curious to see what something like the bk2k drops would look like after 1000 plays on them

I've got about 300-400 games on the set in there now but they are already obsolete compared to the new design. Durability is my #1 goal. If I can't make them outlast a standard target then I won't make them at all.

In their raw aluminum form the face holds up well but over time you can see where the ball hits them. There are no dents or deformation, it just looks like a polished line across the target but I do not plan to sell them in raw aluminum, they will have a durable protective coating, hopefully in a choice of colors, including clear.

I want these to outlast the pinball machine they are placed in. I can't wait to show you guys the new stuff but it's going to be a little while longer, hopefully by the weekend.

#138 9 years ago

Oh, that just gave me an idea for Baywatch drops! JAWS DROPS HA!

#141 9 years ago

VID FTW!

Edit: I'm going to print that and put it on the side of the downdraft booth.

Post edited by NextoPin: Vid Rules

#142 9 years ago

Due to kids being sick this week along with not feeling well myself, I didn't get anything done. I'm going to be working on this all weekend, I'll try to post stuff as I go.

#149 9 years ago

mask.pngmask.png

#154 9 years ago

Send me PM's if you want to get on the target list. Doesn't mean you have to buy anything, just that I will get in touch with you before I post them for sale.

PM with:

Game Name
Manufacturer
# of targets in the machine
An email address if you want to be on the email list.

We are for sure going to make targets for the following machines (assuming there isn't some issue that would prevent me from doing so)
Black Knight 2000
Metallica
AC/DC
WOZ

I have orders for other titles, and I'll add those to the list once we make the first set for that game and they are installed in a machine and we know there aren't any issues.

Back to work. I hope to have something to show you by tomorrow night if everything goes well. It won't be a final version, but it will (hopefully) give everyone an idea of what the finish and colors will look like.

#155 9 years ago

Thanks!

I ended up having some equipment issues and had to get some parts for my air compressor so I didn't get to applying any finishes yet, hopefully tonight, if not, my next free night is Wednesday. Sorry again for the delay in getting you all some pics, should be soon, I'm planning for later tonight.

#156 9 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Cleaned up my rushed logo from earlier, was bugging me. Better now.

jaw-drops.jpg 62 KB

That's really awesome, can I use it for my avatar pic?

Edit: We need to hide some panites in there somewhere.

#158 9 years ago

Ok, Here's a little something to tide everyone over.

Please Be Aware,

This is my first test and is in no way representative of the final product, there will be more pics to come, but I wanted to show you all some progress. The oven I'm using is old and the thermostat has a huge "dead zone" so the temperature was fluctuating quite a bit ~40 degrees. I'm buying a new oven today and plan to do some more testing towards the end of the week/weekend.

The target in the pics is an old version and is not the current design. This is only a test

If this works out well, there is alot of colors and effects we can do, pearls, chameleon, metal flake, textures etc. I'm also thinking I should be able to tint the clear, but I'll need to do more tests to be sure. Color matching will not really be possible but there should be plenty of colors/options to find something that looks good.

As always, your suggestions/feedback is encouraged just remember that this is not what the final will look like.

photo 4.JPGphoto 4.JPGphoto 2.JPGphoto 2.JPGphoto 1.JPGphoto 1.JPG

#160 9 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I think that looks sweet. I'm worried about it holding up with a ball beating it though.

That's what all this testing is for

It should hold up better than the naked aluminum and that held up pretty well, but not great. This is basically encasing the target in high impact plastic.

I need to get the process down before I coat my current prototypes but once they are done I'll be able to test. This one will be going into the machine as a secondary test along with the next few that I do in the 2nd bank of targets. I really need to get my hands on another target bank so I can build a test rig that will beat the target 24/7.

Up next is clear, then green, then candy black The Stern compatible target is the next prototype, can't wait...

#163 9 years ago

Hi!

Just got new oven today. Going to do some more testing over the weekend, I want to try the clear next but after that what color would you like to see?

Translucent Black
*new* translucent shimmer green, I think it's the other green with metal flake.
Translucent Red
Translucent Blue
Translucent Green
Translucent Orange
Translucent Purple
Translucent Clear

#170 9 years ago

The coating is plastic, similar to a stock target. It will actually help this style of target and eliminate metal on metal contact. Note that this is the first prototype and I'm using it for testing the coating process. The final targets may only be coated on the top half as the bottom half has been redesigned.

I do have a Data East sample, thank you for offering it up though.

I should have some free time over the holiday to make some progress. I can't wait to try some of these colors.

#171 9 years ago

Clear Test. image-610.jpgimage-610.jpgSide by side with naked Aluminum image-397.jpgimage-397.jpg

#172 9 years ago

So, what do you think about the clear? How does it look to you guys? I think we may do the engraving on the clear targets first, and the others will be engraved through the coating.

#174 9 years ago

Thanks Cheddar. I'm going to try some color samples this weekend, I'll try to do the black so we can see what it looks like.

2 weeks later
#175 9 years ago

Good news,

I just got word that the rollover prototype is ready for pickup, I'll post some pics once I get it. Things are still moving forward, just a little slower due to the holiday's.

Merry Xmas!

2 weeks later
#176 9 years ago

Sorry for the lack of updates. We have already made a few changes to this design but this should give you an idea of what the rollover will look like. This one has the machine finish and hasn't been polished yet.

rollover2.jpgrollover2.jpg Rollover1.jpgRollover1.jpg
1 week later
#180 9 years ago

I've been out of town for work, once I get back I need to get my BK2K back together (2/3rds of the way through a flipper upgrade, more power=faster testing). Should make some more progress in the next couple weeks. As usual I'll post as I go.

1 month later
#182 9 years ago

Update!

Still workin on em'
Got a new position at work that has me traveling and a bit more busy.

These targets are redesigned from the previous version, some changes were made for durability. I will be putting them into the machine soon for testing. When I pull the old ones out, I'll show you guys some of the problems we have run into along the way, for those that are curious.

I tried the translucent black this time. It's pretty cool, the pictures don't reflect what it looks like in person. They look like smoked chrome, they should look really cool in the machine. I had some blemishes in a couple of the faces, but that won't matter for the durability testing.

This last set might be the make or break test. If the changes we made don't solve the problem, it may not be possible to make them out of aluminum. We'll see I guess.

That one picture is a reflection of a tree out my window.

IMG_4867.JPGIMG_4867.JPG IMG_4864.JPGIMG_4864.JPG IMG_4859.JPGIMG_4859.JPG
#185 9 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

These are so awesome! Will you eventually make these for classic Bally/Stern too? Would love to have drop targets that don't brick.

I've had some nice Pinsider's send me some of the older Bally/Stern/DE targets as well as the older Williams targets. They are on the list to make once these and the modern Stern's (both blade and rollover type) are ready. The form factor for those older targets are so different than the modern ones that we will basically be starting from scratch with them. It will all depend on how the durability testing goes.

As for your targets that brick, make sure you aren't using a big fat rubber behind them. sometimes going with a slightly smaller size and stretching it may help. Also, make sure your springs aren't stretched out, old or worn. Sometimes taking a turn or two off will get them to pull down a bit faster so they can't bounce back and catch the edge.

Quoted from Triumvirat73:

*Off topic*
ProVari hey? Very nice!
I have a Vaporshark rDNA-40 and just love it.

LOL, didn't notice that. It's been 3 years since I had a cig. That's Provari is from their first run and I've never had a problem with it, they are a rock solid product.

#187 9 years ago

Thank you.

Keep up the good work!

1 week later
#190 9 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Beautiful!
Trying to catch up without reading every post... But is there a plan for original black knight drops? I'd make that investment, these are that nice

I have the older Williams targets and a bank thanks to a generous pinsider but we haven't started on them until the testing pans out. The modern Williams type will be first, followed by modern stern/JJP as they are very similar then it will likely be the older Williams as they are the next closest in form factor, then the older Stern/DE/lollipop style as they are a total redesign but as I said, it all depends on how well these new ones hold up.

3 weeks later
#193 9 years ago

Not really. Just started testing the new version. I'm kind of a one man team with the help of a very good machine shop. I don't want to sell anyone something that won't last. I'll have to charge a premium for these due to the low production and I want to be confident that these targets will be durable and last a long time.

My goal is to be taking orders by Allentown in May. If this last change works out, I think we can do that. We may not have drops available to sell at Allentown but we should have some samples that people can put their hands on and start taking orders. Everyone who's emailed or PM'd me are still first on the list and will be contacted before any other orders are filled.

I know it's slow going, this is a pet project and I can't always devote the time I want to on it.

I'll try to post some new pics this week and show you the problems we are trying to solve so you all have a better understanding of why it's taking so long.

#195 9 years ago

I think we figured out they were the same as System 7 and WPC era is the same as System 11. They are in the plan though, likely after Stern targets. The good news is that once all this testing is done, the results should apply to those targets also.

1 week later
#196 8 years ago

Got the new targets installed the other night. We had our first league night scheduled at my house and I didn't want to take a chance of screwing up the machine so I had to wait until after the league night. I played about an hour last night just shooting at them. Some pics to come soon.

2 months later
#198 8 years ago

I'm hoping everyone hasn't given up on me yet. Both my machinist friend and I have been pretty busy over the past few months with our own things going on. I have some changes I want to make and test but we haven't been able to get together on it.

I will say that the last test set was very positive, much less wear, almost none but there is still a little room for improvement. Both of us will be pretty busy until the end of August.

I didn't end up going to Allentown because I didn't have anything to show. I had just started testing the current revision and while I have a few targets that I could let people see, they weren't in a machine and they weren't a recent revision.

I'm not giving up on this. I'm still testing targets for durability and finish. I got one more tweek I want to try and test before filling orders.

Hang in there.. won't be long now.

#209 8 years ago

wholly crap!

Thanks for all the support!

I won't be able to make Pintastic but I'll post some pics as soon as I pull them out of the machine and I'll explain some of the wear issues we had and what we are doing to prevent it.

The sucky part is I lost my original targets so I have to have another set to put in before I can take the previous ones out or I can't play

We are supposed to get together this weekend and I hope to go over a few things, It's possible I could have the new and hopefully final version to begin testing the end of next week.

4 weeks later
#211 8 years ago

UPDATE 8-5-15 (This will be a long post )

Wow this has been going on for a while. Sorry for all the delay's, As I said this is a pet project but since I have recently become unemployed I have had more time to work on these.

My main concern with selling these has been durability. If this was a $3 plastic target and you have to replace it after 1000 plays then it's no big deal, but at the prices I will have to charge I want these things to be just about bullet proof.

I have been hesitant on posting too much detailed info on our designs but I've decided that you guys have supported this endeavor and you deserve a peek behind the curtain. Some of these pictures might be scary and put you off but I feel it's more important to be up front with everyone so they know what they are buying and how hard we have worked to get them to a place where I feel comfortable selling them.

<Open Curtain>

The original targets from the first post were bare aluminum and were an exact copy of a stock target. I was pretty sure they wouldn't hold up but the best way to find out was to put them in the machine and go from there.

image_2.jpegimage_2.jpeg

The first issue was wear inside the slots where the target rode on the metal peg. After a while, the target would start sticking as the steel of the pin in the target assembly began to chaff the softer aluminum.

image.jpegimage.jpeg

This required a total redesign of the lower 2/3 of the target. To remedy this, we opened up the slots and made some nylon bushings. These worked great, like butter and even seemed to work better than a standard target. They looked great in the machine and held up for a while but eventually they started to show signs of wear across the center of the target and at the edges. The top half of the target face was also getting scuffed by the plastic ledge as they dropped. This also happens to stock targets. To correct the scuffing we made the catches that hold the target larger so they would create a clearance for the face as it retracted.

photo 2 (3).JPGphoto 2 (3).JPG

We looked into anodizing but we couldn't find anyone to do small runs and I didn't want to get into trying to do it myself with all the chemicals. I decided to try powder coating them. Since I was really only interested in testing the wear on the target face I also powdercoated some of the original targets I made.

photo 2 (4).JPGphoto 2 (4).JPG

The powder coat looked pretty great and at first seemed to hold up extremely well especially across the face of the target but the edges were taking a beating. The damage on the edges was due to the corners being sharp, and at a 90 degree angle. When the ball would hit the sides it would push the corner of the target through the powder coat. During this testing I also noticed that none of the targets were hanging up, even the old ones without the bushings. The powder coat was acting as a bushing.

Approx. 600 games
CornerWear.JPGCornerWear.JPG

This is where I was about to give up...

#212 8 years ago

In order to prevent to corner of the target from damaging the aluminum we decided to get rid of the corner and put a radius on the edges. I powder coated them and tested them.

roundover.JPGroundover.JPG

The edge wear was reduced considerably. The face of the target was showing no signs of wear, just a tiny bit on the edges, but still not good enough.

Approx. 550 games
photo 3 (3).JPGphoto 3 (3).JPG

So back to the drawing board. We increased the radius more on the corners. We really feel that these will be able to hold up but have yet to test them. I know you guys (and gals?) really want to get your hands on these. What do you think? Should I go through one last test cycle before selling or get them out there and hope for the best?

Here's the latest version, in raw aluminum.
photo 1 (6).JPGphoto 1 (6).JPG

This pic shows the mirror finish of the target face
photo 4 (3).JPGphoto 4 (3).JPG

The latest batch along with a couple of the previous version.
photo 5 (1).JPGphoto 5 (1).JPG

#214 8 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The only chemical you need for anodizing is Sulfuric Acid (just plain 'ol battery acid from the auto store).
Anodizing is a very "green" technology.

It's not out of the question but if I try anodizing now I'll have to start testing all over again. I've had some anodized knives, flashlights etc over time and they eventually wear. Coating them with plastic makes them more like the stock target. If someone here does anodizing I'll send them a couple targets and I can test them.

I'm also going to edit my above posts and put how many games were on each set of targets.

#218 8 years ago
Quoted from VacFink:

Clear Mylar over the target face would seem to be a good sacrificial wear item, similar to a decal. IMO better than engraving. The texture is bound to scuff the ball and translate to scratches elsewhere over time. with a print in black on clear or even other color on mylar would look nearly as good and might work better long term.
Great job testing and problem solving and thank too for sharing.

Each drop target will include a mylar protector that can be applied should the owner desire. The goal here was to make a target that can take a beating in a home use machine as is. Nobody in their right mind would pay more for a pretty target in a routed game (I would love to put some in one to see how they do).

The engraving will not scuff the ball as it will be into the powder coat and the powder coat, while hard, is not has hard as a case hardened steel pinball.

I'm more concerned about the ball damaging the engraving. This is still something that has yet to be tested as all the targets so far had the engraving done before the powder coat.

I plan to have the option to order the targets raw aluminum for those that want to finish themselves, Powder coated plain in colors and clear and powder coated with the engraving.

#220 8 years ago

I'm going to be contacting some folks on the pre-sale list. Right now I have a limited quantity (6) to sell. I would like to split these up across a couple machines/owners so I'm starting with machines with 3 or fewer System11/WPC type targets. Once they are shipped and the owners are happy with them I will fill the remaining.

Modern Stern Targets are likely next as they are closest to the Williams type. Not sure after that.

I may have some issues making the System 7/9 targets as they use the target itself, or more specifically a copper clip, to close the target switch. This may be an issue with a metal target but I may be able to isolate the clip somehow. These will be a totally new target and require a redesign from the ground up.
droptargetsystem7back.jpgdroptargetsystem7back.jpg

The lollipop targets (Bally, Gottlieb, Early Stern etc.) are about the same situation and a totally new target type.

The sale of all the targets go right back into the project to pay for materials, design time and machine time to create the next batch of targets and creating the new target types. Eventually I would like to branch out into standup targets and spinners but that's a bit down the road.

#223 8 years ago
Quoted from VacFink:

I seem to recall that Aluminum and Copper aren't good friends, you could end up with a corrosive reaction.

That's what I meant by isolating the clip somehow. If it's just for tension maybe we can come up with another way. The point I was making is that these targets are constructed a bit differently than the more modern ones and it will be some time before we attempt to tackle them.

6 months later
#224 8 years ago

Wow, 203 days since my last post. So long that Pinside warned me before posting. This will be long, so buckle up.

Just like this thread the project is not dead. It is in fact very much still alive, so let me update you on the progress. I know this is a little "Inside Baseball" but I've tried to be as straight forward and honest about this project so I'm sharing all the details.

I have not really been on Pinside very much in the past 6-8 months. There have been a couple issues that have caused this long delay. The main one was losing my job in July and not having the extra income to move forward and the other was issues with applying art to the face of the target.

First, the money situation.
I owed my machinist a balance on the targets he had already designed and produced for me. While I'm sure he would have done what he could to help me, I wasn't about to ask. We had been continuing to talk about idea's etc but I had run out of materials and the next step (Stern targets) was going to be alot of design time and prototyping and I just couldn't afford to move forward at the time so everything was put on hold.

Last month I cashed in my 401k to pay off my debt and get my monthly payments down to a reasonable level. I still have not found a job and really haven't put a lot of effort into finding one. I'm sick of the rat race and working for corporations that care more about the monthly report than they do about the people. I've been fixing computers and pinball machines and using the skills I have to make money over the past 6 months. It's not much, but we are getting by and by paying off all these bills we should be in good shape. Fortunately I have a great wife who understands that I can't sit at a desk all day clicking on shit and need to do something where I utilize my skills and interests to support myself and the family.

Some of my savings went into paying off the machinist and paying in advance for the next batch of design and tooling for the Stern targets and production of the Williams style targets. The William's flat and rollover targets are finalized and will be manufactured in the coming weeks. I am going to get the Stern prototypes made first so I can get them into testing and the William's will follow.

Issue #2, Artwork
My first prototypes (from the first pictures) were engraved while the target was being machined. This created some potential issues with with contaminates from the polishing getting stuck in the engraving and the durability of the powder coat over the engraved area. I decided to try the engraving after the powdercoating. Once the target was powdercoated we had issues with engraving through it. The engraver has to be very precise to go through the powdercoat but not too far into the aluminum. Because I powdercoat the whole target this caused variants in the thickness of the front and the back and made it very difficult and time consuming to get a good result and it became cost prohibitive.

So I started looking into laser engraving. I had some samples done and while the results were great the cost per target was too much. I want to revisit this in the future but until I own a laser engraver this method is off the table. I also had some concerns with the edges of the powdercoat on the engraving deforming. I have not done any impact testing as the engraving shop did not put the sample high enough on the target for the ball to impact it.

This was a previous prototype that I used to test the engraving and not the current designThis was a previous prototype that I used to test the engraving and not the current design

On my way to pay the machinist I had an idea that I think will work, won't cost much and should be just as durable as a blank target.

I didn't want to sell just a blank target because I didn't see what it offered over a stock plastic target if you were just going to apply a sticker to the front of it. If there is interest in the blank targets powder coated in a choice of color let me know as I will be able to fill those orders as I work through the artwork issue.

I know you all have heard this before but I hope to be taking and shipping orders by the end of the month. If you sent me an email requesting to be put on the waiting list I will reach out to you and make sure you are still interested and take your order. If you don't hear from me it's because your targets are something I don't make yet. Send me a PM with your email address or any questions and I will get back to you. Including 'Drop Target' in the subject will help.

Currently 4 targets will be available.
Normal flat William's type (system 11 era and various other games),
William's Rollover type (Sys 11 era and others)
Stern target with the flat back (World Poker tour and some older Sterns have them)
Stern Rollovers (ACDC and Metallica have these).

Once I have more to show I will update with some pictures and pricing. Thank you for your interest and patience, won't be long now, really, I mean it this time!

-Mike

2 weeks later
#229 8 years ago
Quoted from pinlawyer:

I'm in for as many as it takes to replace all the drops in my 35-40 pins.

That's very kind to say, I'm hoping someone with a World Poker Tour want's some, that game has like 21 targets!!

Quoted from shimoda:

If those were Gottlieb EMs you could probably buy the OP a house

I thought about doing these, but EM owners aren't very fond of modding so I didn't think there would be anyone who would want them. I have an ACD and I'm not even sure I would put them in there. Also, these are metal and I'm not sure how it will work with the way the switches are on these older assemblies, it may cause a short.

Here's a little sneak peek. Stern sneak peek coming soon.

Here's a video I took of the Williams targets in the CNC workcenter

And a pic of some of the targets with the front side done.

IMG_5934_(resized).JPGIMG_5934_(resized).JPG

#232 8 years ago
Quoted from Squeakman:

So are the system 9 Williams targets not going to happen now? I need three for my Sorcerer restore. At one time I had talked to you and you were going to make them.

Eventually yes, but not sure when. I was sent a spare sys 9 target bank and targets so I have what I need to test them but with 3 target types already it's keeping me busy.

I'm sorry I can't make all the targets yet but I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Once I start selling then I will have money to get more designed.

Here's some pics of the stern targets straight from the CNC. These are unpolished. Currently in testing. More pics to come soon.

image_(resized).jpgimage_(resized).jpg

image_(resized).jpgimage_(resized).jpg

2 weeks later
#234 7 years ago

I just bought a laser engraver!

If anyone is interested in one, they give you a $100 off code which gives both parties $100 off which would really help.

I got the basic/no filter for $2400

Coupon link is here. http://glowforge.com/referred/?kid=q8kibl

More Drop Target details, pic and order link (hopefully) coming soon.

9 months later
#240 7 years ago

Sorry for the lack of communication on this project. I recently took all my games and life's savings and opened a pinball shop. I thought I would be able to get to these sooner but everything was a lot harder than I expected (Pinball is hard). The plan is to move all my equipment over to the shop in the coming weeks and get back on this project. I hope to have some updates soon.

Thanks for the patience and support, it's not over yet.

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