(Topic ID: 239331)

Solenoid board issues.


By flappybob123

7 months ago



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  • 28 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by flappybob123
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SolenoidList_PowerPlay.jpg

#1 7 months ago

Due to the solenoid board for my 1977 Bally power play being extremely inconsistent and unreliable, as well as the wrong solenoids firing at the wrong times (etc the bump caps fire instead of the bells), I replaced and resoldered a significant amount of components on my solenoid board, including all the header pins, the 19 resistors, 19 IN4004 diodes, and 19 transistors on the bottom of the board, 9 of the 19 capacitors on the bottom of the board connected to the transistors I replaced, the two IN4004 diodes linked to the flipper relay and the high voltage regulator, the two large capacitors (c23 and c26), and capacitor c24. After all of these replacements, I plugged everything in and fired the machine up, and instead of the machine booting up like normal, the machine immediately made a loud electrical buzzing and wouldn't boot at all. I quickly unplugged the machine, and I'm not too sure where to go from here, as this wasn't the problem I had before replacing many of these components. I do not want to plug the board back in and ruin any components due to some kind of overload, but I'm not sure how else to go about testing a fault on the board. The transformer of the pinball machine hasn't had any issues before, so I don't think it is related to it, but I do plan on eventually replacing the transformer altogether due to its age. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I can post pictures of the top and bottom of the board if needed.

#2 7 months ago

I will start with an assumption that all parts were swapped for identical replacements.

The first thing I would do is confirm that there are no shorted pins...ie solder crossing over from one pin to the next. Look carefully at every joint you did under magnification. Then use a multimeter to confirm that nothing is connected to something else that should. This includes all the header pins, caps, diodes, transistors etc.

That’s the first point for me.

Dave

#3 7 months ago

It's too bad you didn't come to us first before replacing all those components. Repin connector J4 on the solenoid driver board as well as J4 on the MPU and your 'wrong solenoids firing' issue will probably clear up.

#4 7 months ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

It's too bad you didn't come to us first before replacing all those components. Repin connector J4 on the solenoid driver board as well as J4 on the MPU and your 'wrong solenoids firing' issue will probably clear up.

I wanted to replace all of the components anyways due to the board being unreliable altogether.

#5 7 months ago
Quoted from Calipindave:

I will start with an assumption that all parts were swapped for identical replacements.
The first thing I would do is confirm that there are no shorted pins...ie solder crossing over from one pin to the next. Look carefully at every joint you did under magnification. Then use a multimeter to confirm that nothing is connected to something else that should. This includes all the header pins, caps, diodes, transistors etc.
That’s the first point for me.
Dave

Thanks! I checked with a multimeter and found the transistor Q3 was shorted out to ground, causing for the knocker to lock and the electrical buzzing to occur due to the short circuit. After fixing the solder joint, I powered up the machine and it booted! However, the signals of the solenoids are still mixed up. Next task, repin all the connectors on the MPU board!

#6 7 months ago

Why would you replace your transformer?
Age has nothing to do with it.
I personal would just buy a new driver board, there not that expensive.
Are you sure you don't have your solenoid plug on backwards?
Had that problem on a stern where wrong coils were firing,
found out plug wasn't keyed and flipped over.

#7 7 months ago
Quoted from flappybob123:

Next task, repin all the connectors on the MPU board!

Just start with J4 on the MPU and J4 on the SDB. Don't take a chance of creating any other issues at this point.

1 week later
#8 7 months ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Just start with J4 on the MPU and J4 on the SDB. Don't take a chance of creating any other issues at this point.

I replaced all the connectors anyhow, but the wrong solenoids sitll continue to fire. Any ideas where to go from here?

#9 7 months ago
Quoted from wdennie:

Why would you replace your transformer?
Age has nothing to do with it.
I personal would just buy a new driver board, there not that expensive.
Are you sure you don't have your solenoid plug on backwards?
Had that problem on a stern where wrong coils were firing,
found out plug wasn't keyed and flipped over.

I'm Sure I haven't flipped the connectors. I checked the schematics to make sure each connector is in the right orientation

#10 7 months ago
Quoted from flappybob123:

I replaced all the connectors anyhow, but the wrong solenoids sitll continue to fire. Any ideas where to go from here?

You'll need to provide more details about exactly which solenoids are/aren't working when they should.

Go into solenoid test mode.
Note down which solenoids rightly, wrongly or if none activate as the solenoid numbers cycle through the test mode and report them. Then we can build a map of what is logically going wrong in the signal chain.

#11 7 months ago

Approach all early Ballys the same way, systematically and following the repair guide for all the reliability modifications. Disconnect all the harnesses. Start with verifying all the transformer secondary voltages. Then repair and upgrade the rectifier board, repin all connectors, connect the rectifier board and verify its output voltages. Proceed the same way with the solenoid driver board.

The last board would be the MPU. Never ever plug in the MPU, until you are certain the supply to it is accurate and rock solid. Refer to the guides section titled "Before powering up the game for the first time." Included in this process is checking and verifying all fuses.

#12 7 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

You'll need to provide more details about exactly which solenoids are/aren't working when they should.
Go into solenoid test mode.
Note down which solenoids rightly, wrongly or if none activate as the solenoid numbers cycle through the test mode and report them. Then we can build a map of what is logically going wrong in the signal chain.

Got it, I will post this information as soon as I get home

#13 7 months ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Approach all early Ballys the same way, systematically and following the repair guide for all the reliability modifications. Disconnect all the harnesses. Start with verifying all the transformer secondary voltages. Then repair and upgrade the rectifier board, repin all connectors, connect the rectifier board and verify its output voltages. Proceed the same way with the solenoid driver board.
The last board would be the MPU. Never ever plug in the MPU, until you are certain the supply to it is accurate and rock solid. Refer to the guides section titled "Before powering up the game for the first time." Included in this process is checking and verifying all fuses.

I've already verified all test points and fuses. All of them have been tested at the proper voltage. The machine used to work not too long ago so I don't think it's an issue with the rectifier board or the transformer. At first the solenoids would only sometimes be switched, but now they are consistently switched.

#14 7 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

You'll need to provide more details about exactly which solenoids are/aren't working when they should.
Go into solenoid test mode.
Note down which solenoids rightly, wrongly or if none activate as the solenoid numbers cycle through the test mode and report them. Then we can build a map of what is logically going wrong in the signal chain.

Here is the PROPER list of solenoid test #'s:
1: Outhole Kicker
2: Knocker
3: Tophole Saucer
4: Post down
5: Chime 10
6: Chime 100
7: Chime 1000
8: Chime Extra
9: Left Thumper Bumper
10: Right Thumper Bumper
11: Bottom Thumper Bumper
12: Left Drop Target
13: Right Drop Target
14: Left Slingshot
15: Right Slingshot
16: Post up
17: Coin lockout door
18: Flipper Enable

I ran the solenoid test mode and here are the results:

1: Right Drop Target (x)
2: Right Slingshot (x)
3: Nothing happened (x)
4: Left Thumper Bumper (x)
5: Right Thumper Bumper (x)
6: Bottom Thumper Bumper (x)
7: Left Slingshot (x)
8: Left Target Reset (x)
9: Left Thumper Bumper
10: Right Thumper Bumper
11: Bottom Thumper Bumper
12: Left Drop Target
13: Right Drop Target
14: Left Slingshot
15: Right Slingshot
16: Nothing happened (x)
17: Nothing Happened (x)
18: Flipper Enable

I placed an (x) next to the solenoids that fired incorrectly. Let me know what I should do from here!

#15 7 months ago
Quoted from flappybob123:

I placed an (x) next to the solenoids that fired incorrectly. Let me know what I should do from here!

Much better fault report.

There are four momentary solenoid select signals from the MPU board to the SDB. These are signals PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 which come from pins 4, 3, 2, 1 respectively on J4 of the MPU board and go to pins 6, 5, 4, 3 respectively at J4 of the SDB.
From the Solenoid Driver Board (SDB) schematic, below are the four PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 signal states and which solenoids the combination of states select. The four digits in the left column are binary numbers - "0" means zero volts, "1" means 5 volts.

One of these four signals is not reaching the SDB circuit. The solenoids listed on the left are what should activate, the solenoids on the right are what you are getting.
It is clear the PB3 signal is not getting from the MPU board to the SDB and the SDB is always seeing PB3 as a "1". This is a red-white wire from MPU J4 Pin 1 to the SDB J4 Pin 3. So you need to find out where the break in connection is - most likely one end of that wire has been badly crimped or the pin on SDB J4 pin 3 needs to be resoldered.

SolenoidList_PowerPlay.jpg

#16 7 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Much better fault report.
There are four momentary solenoid select signals from the MPU board to the SDB. These are signals PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 which come from pins 4, 3, 2, 1 respectively on J4 of the MPU board and go to pins 6, 5, 4, 3 respectively at J4 of the SDB.
From the Solenoid Driver Board (SDB) schematic, below are the four PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 signal states and which solenoids the combination of states select. The four digits in the left column are binary numbers - "0" means zero volts, "1" means 5 volts.
One of these four signals is not reaching the SDB circuit. The solenoids listed on the left are what should activate, the solenoids on the right are what you are getting.
It is clear the PB3 signal is not getting from the MPU board to the SDB. This is a red-white wire from MPU J4 Pin 1 to the SDB J4 Pin 3. So you need to find out where the break in connection is - most likely one end of that wire has been badly crimped or the pin on SDB J4 pin 3 needs to be resoldered.
[quoted image]

Fantastic info to share and good troubleshooting logic. Upvoted!

#17 7 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Much better fault report.
There are four momentary solenoid select signals from the MPU board to the SDB. These are signals PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 which come from pins 4, 3, 2, 1 respectively on J4 of the MPU board and go to pins 6, 5, 4, 3 respectively at J4 of the SDB.
From the Solenoid Driver Board (SDB) schematic, below are the four PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 signal states and which solenoids the combination of states select. The four digits in the left column are binary numbers - "0" means zero volts, "1" means 5 volts.
One of these four signals is not reaching the SDB circuit. The solenoids listed on the left are what should activate, the solenoids on the right are what you are getting.
It is clear the PB3 signal is not getting from the MPU board to the SDB. This is a red-white wire from MPU J4 Pin 1 to the SDB J4 Pin 3. So you need to find out where the break in connection is - most likely one end of that wire has been badly crimped or the pin on SDB J4 pin 3 needs to be resoldered.
[quoted image]

I went ahead and recrimped the red white wire on both connectors, and still the problem persists. I even checked with a multimeter for continuity, and it checks out. Any other ideas? Thanks!

#18 7 months ago
Quoted from flappybob123:

I went ahead and recrimped the red white wire on both connectors, and still the problem persists. I even checked with a multimeter for continuity, and it checks out. Any other ideas? Thanks!

Bob,

When you checked for continuity did you stick the probe into the connector on each side...would be good to be certain that the red/white wire is providing continuity between the 2 pins...

You might also try pulling the plug out slightly and checking the continuity between the pins across the wire.

Dave

#19 7 months ago
Quoted from Calipindave:

Bob,
When you checked for continuity did you stick the probe into the connector on each side...would be good to be certain that the red/white wire is providing continuity between the 2 pins...
You might also try pulling the plug out slightly and checking the continuity between the pins across the wire.
Dave

I checked the continuity of the pins, and once again it still checks out. Leads me to think the problem lies within the 5v signal itself. From my test results, the pin seems to always have a value of 1.

#20 7 months ago

You'll need to follow that malfunctioning PB3 signal from source to destination.

It starts at pin 13 of U11 on the MPU board, goes through resistor R100 then reaches pin 1 of the MPU J4 connector. Then it goes out through that red-white wire to pin 3 of J4 at the SDB and onto pin 20 of U2 on the SDB.

The following is better done with a logic probe if you have one.
Get the game in solenoid test mode. Measure the voltage on that signal at pin 13 of U11 on the MPU board. It will normally sit high at around 5 volts and briefly pulse low to zero volts when activating any of those first eight solenoids listed in the chart I posted above where you're getting wrong activations. The pulse will be too fast for your meter to show zero volts but you should see your meter react.

Follow the signal until you find the break in activity.

#21 7 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

You'll need to follow that malfunctioning PB3 signal from source to destination.
It starts at pin 13 of U11 on the MPU board, goes through resistor R100 then reaches pin 1 of the MPU J4 connector. Then it goes out through that red-white wire to pin 3 of J4 at the SDB and onto pin 20 of U2 on the SDB.
The following is better done with a logic probe if you have one.
Get the game in solenoid test mode. Measure the voltage on that signal at pin 13 of U11 on the MPU board. It will normally sit high at around 5 volts and briefly pulse low to zero volts when activating any of those first eight solenoids listed in the chart I posted above where you're getting wrong activations. The pulse will be too fast for your meter to show zero volts but you should see your meter react.
Follow the signal until you find the break in activity.

Okay, I went ahead and ordered a logic probe, once it gets here I'll run the tests. As for U2 on the SDB, I replaced it when I replaced about 70% of the parts on the SDB and the problem still persisted before and after so I don't think the problem lies on the SDB.

#22 7 months ago

How much resistance do you measure between the source of pin 13 of U11 on the MPU board and destination pin 20 of U2 on the SDB?
Compare it to one of the other solenoid select signals, say PB1 which goes from pin 11 of U11 on the MPU board and pin 22 of U2 on the SDB.

So set your multi-meter to resistance mode (if your meter isn't auto-ranging, set it to 2000 ohms range). One meter lead goes on the source pin, other meter lead goes to the destination pin.

You should read about 470 ohms according to the schematics for both signals.

1 week later
#23 7 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

How much resistance do you measure between the source of pin 13 of U11 on the MPU board and destination pin 20 of U2 on the SDB?
Compare it to one of the other solenoid select signals, say PB1 which goes from pin 11 of U11 on the MPU board and pin 22 of U2 on the SDB.
So set your multi-meter to resistance mode (if your meter isn't auto-ranging, set it to 2000 ohms range). One meter lead goes on the source pin, other meter lead goes to the destination pin.
You should read about 470 ohms according to the schematics for both signals.

The resistances are the same between the pins, around 470. When I checked in test mode with the logic probe, the PB3 signal from U11 is constantly high, while the signal from PB2, PB1, and PB0 pulse between HI and LO, as they should. Does this mean I have a bad u11? Or do the signals that enter U11 have the problem? Like does the signal enter u11 pulsed or is it supposed to only exit pulsed? And which input or inluts on u11 corresponds to the output PB3? I tried reading schematics for the PIA 6280 but they are way too complex for me to understand and are 10 pages long. Thanks for your help!

#24 6 months ago
Quoted from flappybob123:

The resistances are the same between the pins, around 470. When I checked in test mode with the logic probe, the PB3 signal from U11 is constantly high, while the signal from PB2, PB1, and PB0 pulse between HI and LO, as they should. Does this mean I have a bad u11? Or do the signals that enter U11 have the problem? Like does the signal enter u11 pulsed or is it supposed to only exit pulsed? And which input or inluts on u11 corresponds to the output PB3? I tried reading schematics for the PIA 6280 but they are way too complex for me to understand and are 10 pages long. Thanks for your help!

Where are you putting your logic probe?

If that PIA pin is not electrically connected to the MPU/driver board there is a 10k pull up resistor on the driver board that will make that signal read always high if the PIA pin is floating/ not connected.

try right on the leg of the PIA chip. If you are right on the leg of the PIA and it never goes low but the other three bits do that U11 PIA is suspect. WHat you can do is to lift that suspect leg out of the socket so it is not electrically connected. Then put the game is solenoid test again and check that leg. If it is still always high PIA is dead. If it starts to pulse, that signal is shorted somewhere to something like 5v.

#25 6 months ago

Just beat me to it barakandl

To answer your other question:

Quoted from flappybob123:

Or do the signals that enter U11 have the problem? Like does the signal enter u11 pulsed or is it supposed to only exit pulsed? And which input or inluts on u11 corresponds to the output PB3?

Data input line D3 (pin 30) has some control on what output signal PB3 on port B does. D3 also corresponds to the other output signal PA3 on port A.
When the game tests the U11 PIA during power on self test, it writes to all registers in the PIA and expects the same data when read back. A problem on input pin D3 would exhibit itself during these tests and the PIA would fail the 5th LED flash. So input pin D3 on U11 isn't your problem.

#26 6 months ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Where are you putting your logic probe?
If that PIA pin is not electrically connected to the MPU/driver board there is a 10k pull up resistor on the driver board that will make that signal read always high if the PIA pin is floating/ not connected.
try right on the leg of the PIA chip. If you are right on the leg of the PIA and it never goes low but the other three bits do that U11 PIA is suspect. WHat you can do is to lift that suspect leg out of the socket so it is not electrically connected. Then put the game is solenoid test again and check that leg. If it is still always high PIA is dead. If it starts to pulse, that signal is shorted somewhere to something like 5v.

I put the logic probe directly on the pin PB3 on the U11 chip. Still shows always high signal. So I should go ahead and order a new u11?

#27 6 months ago
Quoted from flappybob123:

I put the logic probe directly on the pin PB3 on the U11 chip. Still shows always high signal. So I should go ahead and order a new u11?

If you have another known good PIA you can try it to swap it in, probably what I would do.

Also could try rotating U10 and U11 to see if the problem moves to the other chip... would probably be some solenoid trigger.... maybe even a continuous solenoid that is not used in your game, but not sure without checking schem.

If you want to verify the PIA pull that leg out of the socket and try solenoid test again. if it is still stuck always high and all the other PIA ports are functioning then the PIA is dead with a single bad port

If it gives no reading or a bad reading (similar to sound /look of touching the probe to a finger tip where some other part of your body is earth grounded PIA is dead with an open circuit internally isolating that leg.

If it starts to pulse properly with the leg pulled out the socket that signal is shorted to something else on the MPU or driver board.

#28 6 months ago

New PIA fixed the issue. Game works as normal. However now the wrong feature lights light up, but everything else functions as it should. Time to do some more diagnosing! At least now the game is playable

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