(Topic ID: 281991)

Soldering in new target switches - solder won't stick.

By Tonup69

3 years ago


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  • 28 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Michkid
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Switch_Compare (resized).jpg
Williams Double Make switch (resized).jpg
Magic City target (resized).jpg
Old_Switch (resized).jpg
Target_Switch (resized).jpg

#1 3 years ago

Guys - I am replacing the target switches on my Magic City. There is a wire that should be soldered to the switch - at least the original switches were like this. I can't get the solder to stick to the switch mounting metal. It may be plated or coated with something. Do you sand or grind the new ones? The new switch DOES have a third terminal (original had two). Can I use the third one to ground the switch? Type of switch I am using is below (yes, I know this is not the stock switch, but those were out of stock).

Target_Switch (resized).jpgTarget_Switch (resized).jpg
#2 3 years ago

what kind of solder and iron are you using? do you know the watt and/or temp?

#3 3 years ago

Can you post a picture of your existing target switch wiring? Not sure what you mean about grounding the mount. New switches are designed only t be connected to the lugs, not sure any other parts even are electrically connected

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Can you post a picture of your existing target switch wiring? Not sure what you mean about grounding the mount. New switches are designed only t be connected to the lugs, not sure any other parts even are electrically connected

Sure. Here is the old one in place.

Old_Switch (resized).jpgOld_Switch (resized).jpg
#5 3 years ago
Quoted from northvibe:

what kind of solder and iron are you using? do you know the watt and/or temp?

40Watt Weller. Using rosin core solder.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Tonup69:

40Watt Weller. Using rosin core solder.

You could try to scuff it with a little sandpaper, otherwise if you have any flux to put down on it, that helps too. Just make sure to really heat up the lugs as they need to be hot, the wire and solder will get hot much faster. It is almost like soldering copper with brass and the brass has to be heated a little longer for it to make that connection (plumbing)

#7 3 years ago

Still not sure what that wire going to the base is accomplishing.. Does the switch have three blades instead of two or something? Are all the switches like that?

#8 3 years ago

Looking at the schematic....I see target switches for their respective relays as well as for points. So I suspect the originals have two separate switch contacts.

Can you show a photo of the switch blades on the original?

#9 3 years ago

Just sanity checking here but does the new target have two switches behind it? The original does.
Magic City target (resized).jpgMagic City target (resized).jpg
Your photo above looks like the I target with one switch between yellow and white-green wires that fires the I relay and another switch between yellow and white-red to fire the 10 point relay. Rather than two separate switches it's probably built as a double make switch like this:
Williams Double Make switch (resized).jpgWilliams Double Make switch (resized).jpg
Assuming your new switch has either a double make switch or two normally open switches you want the yellow to be common to both switches. Check the new switch with a meter to make sure that the frame is connected to one of the leaf switches like the original.

/Mark

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Still not sure what that wire going to the base is accomplishing.. Does the switch have three blades instead of two or something? Are all the switches like that?

As you can see in the photo - the original swtiches all have two connections and a wire on the base - EXCEPT the middle target switch which using one wire on the switch and one that touches the ground wire and the base - not sure why. The new swtiches have three terminals. Maybe I can use the third one to ground the switch?

#11 3 years ago

A 40 watt fully heated up Weller is likely running too hot. You may be getting the solder so hot, it just sort of falls off or gets blown away when the rosen core vaporizes.

If it was me, I would drop down to a 25 watt iron. Pre-tin both the wire and the switch. Then let them cool for a brief moment. Stick them together and hit them just long enough with the iron to melt the solder. HOLD them together and count to at least ten. Swear once or twice about your burned fingers, then let go.

Brand new switches should solder very easily.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Just sanity checking here but does the new target have two switches behind it? The original does.
[quoted image]
Your photo above looks like the I target with one switch between yellow and white-green wires that fires the I relay and another switch between yellow and white-red to fire the 10 point relay. Rather than two separate switches it's probably built as a double make switch like this:
[quoted image]
Assuming your new switch has either a double make switch or two normally open switches you want the yellow to be common to both switches. Check the new switch with a meter to make sure that the frame is connected to one of the leaf switches like the original.
/Mark

See if this photo helps - old switch on the left - new switch on the right.

Switch_Compare (resized).jpgSwitch_Compare (resized).jpg
#13 3 years ago

the old cloth wire is very difficult, sometimes the only way you can get a reliable connection is to actually dip the stripped wire in solder flux, tin it ,bend it into shape on the switch leaf and then solder it

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

A 40 watt fully heated up Weller is likely running too hot. You may be getting the solder so hot, it just sort of falls off or gets blown away when the rosen core vaporizes.
If it was me, I would drop down to a 25 watt iron. Pre-tin both the wire and the switch. Then let them cool for a brief moment. Stick them together and hit them just long enough with the iron to melt the solder. HOLD them together and count to at least ten. Swear once or twice about your burned fingers, then let go.
Brand new switches should solder very easily.

I use needle nose pliers to hold the wires while I solder. Just saying.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from Tonup69:

Guys - I am replacing the target switches on my Magic City. There is a wire that should be soldered to the switch - at least the original switches were like this. I can't get the solder to stick to the switch mounting metal. It may be plated or coated with something. Do you sand or grind the new ones? The new switch DOES have a third terminal (original had two). Can I use the third one to ground the switch? Type of switch I am using is below (yes, I know this is not the stock switch, but those were out of stock).
[quoted image]

See how the new swtich has three terminals? Can I just use these three terminals for the three wires? Ground lead for the target terminal and 10pt lead "I" lead (see schematic) for the other two wires?

LTR

#16 3 years ago

You need two separate circuits which the "double make switch" Mark has shown does. Don't think your new switch accomplishes that.

Replacing the target face should be enough, there's even a whole "Vid's Guide" on how to do it! https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-stand-up-target-faces-vids-guide

You might also be able to use the blade with the target on your old switch stack. You can drill out the rivets and use machine screws instead if you don't have the gear to replace the rivets.

#17 3 years ago

I think what you have is a single normally open switch with a third solder tab to make attaching the diode easier which would be important for solid state games. I suspect that two of the solder tabs are shorted together and that the frame isn't electrically connected to any of the solder tabs. A meter would confirm that. That might also explain why you can't easily solder to the frame - it wasn't intended to be soldered.

If that's the case you can't use this switch as a direct replacement. If you connect the yellow wire to one solder tab and the other two wires to the two solder tabs that are shorted together you'll get the I target any time 10 points are scored. You could just wire up the white-green I relay wire and give up the 10 points in a pinch.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I think what you have is a single normally open switch with a third solder tab to make attaching the diode easier which would be important for solid state games. I suspect that two of the solder tabs are shorted together and that the frame isn't electrically connected to any of the solder tabs. A meter would confirm that. That might also explain why you can't easily solder to the frame - it wasn't intended to be soldered.
If that's the case you can't use this switch as a direct replacement. If you connect the yellow wire to one solder tab and the other two wires to the two solder tabs that are shorted together you'll get the I target any time 10 points are scored. You could just wire up the white-green I relay wire and give up the 10 points in a pinch.

Bummer. I get what you are saying here. Might just have to do that - unless I can find the other type switches somewhere. I will be eating more than 10pts in that case - since new switches set me back about $40.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

You need two separate circuits which the "double make switch" Mark has shown does. Don't think your new switch accomplishes that.
Replacing the target face should be enough, there's even a whole "Vid's Guide" on how to do it! https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-stand-up-target-faces-vids-guide
You might also be able to use the blade with the target on your old switch stack. You can drill out the rivets and use machine screws instead if you don't have the gear to replace the rivets.

Yeah, I think the new switch is just 1 switch, so swapping the face or replacing whatever is broke on the original is a good idea.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Tonup69:

Bummer. I get what you are saying here. Might just have to do that - unless I can find the other type switches somewhere. I will be eating more than 10pts in that case - since new switches set me back about $40.

PBR sells single components like just a blade or fish paper etc. So you could rebuild your switch. It is cheaper, more labor, but you'll pay a chunk in shipping.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from northvibe:

PBR sells single components like just a blade or fish paper etc. So you could rebuild your switch. It is cheaper, more labor, but you'll pay a chunk in shipping.

Really was not planning on this adventure, and I already bought target switches that I thought might work. Still, I agree that this is the better solution. Guess I need that rivet tool as well.

#22 3 years ago

I just looked through a bunch of switches I have, unfortunately nothing that will work. Sorry

#23 3 years ago

Lets back the ho train up. Why are you replacing the stand up switches? If its only for cosmetics, you do know that you can buy new target faces and rivet them on for $2ish per target?

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Tonup69:

I use needle nose pliers to hold the wires while I solder.

The pliers are acting as a heat sink making this task more difficult, you're better off getting the wire into the hole in the terminal to hold it in place while you solder it. Unless you're holding it by the insulation....

But, as noted later in the thread, wrong target if it needs 2 separate circuits. I'd guess that whatever circuits it's bridging, it's ok for a brief crossing of those 2, but not a continuous which is what would happen if you wired them permanently together.

#25 3 years ago

First rule of solder is clean. Clean the solder itself and the switch terminals with alcohol. Also, cut off the old wires and re-strip them so you are soldering fresh wire. Finally, never hold the wire in place while soldering. Strip enough back that you can stick it through the hole in the terminal of the new switch and fold it around or wrap it around the whole terminal so it is already held in place on its own. Once the terminal, wire and solder are all hot enough, surface tension will make it stick.

#26 3 years ago

Rather than turn this into a full blown science project, why not just drill out the rivet on the new stand and transfer the target to the old one?

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

Rather than turn this into a full blown science project, why not just drill out the rivet on the new stand and transfer the target to the old one?

The simple answer is that I thought it would be EASY to replace the switches (and have the new ones already). However, it looks like I will be buying target faces and a tool to set the rivets. Wish I had known this would not be so simple, but now I do.

LTR

1 week later
#28 3 years ago

Crimp a wire to a round terminal and use the screws to secure it

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