(Topic ID: 149025)

Solar Fire System 7 wont boot

By DragonPin

8 years ago


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  • 34 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by DragonPin
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 8 years ago

Hi, I am working on a Solar Fire for a friend and cant seem to get the machine to boot.

When powering up I get a brief flash of zero on segment display and the two leds, then they all go blank.

I am reading 12v at TP1
4.8v at TP9,8
4.8v at cpu pin40,8

I am not sure what to do next. My next thought is to replace all of the transistors on the reset circuit, however I pulled the top 4 and they all tested fine.
I am stumped on this and feel like Im shooting in the dark. Any advice on what to check next would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

#2 8 years ago

Push the diag button on the MPU. What does the mpu diag digit show after that?

Volt meter logic probe on CPU P40. If it is 5vdc / HIGH, your reset section is working. Reset failures in System 6-7 is rare, they almost never fail.

Side note... i did a Solar Fire MPU the other day and the ROM labels where wrong from the factory!. They had IC20 and IC17 labels mixed up. I have seen that mistake on Black Knight too.

#3 8 years ago

When the button is pressed I get no response on the digit display.

So if I'm seeing 4.8 at pin40 then the reset circuit is good?
Roms in the game are kinda unknown.
History of machine is it has sat for over 10 years. No tampering with the roms as far as I know.
How can I test the cmos ram? Could that be contributing?

Thanks for the reply

#4 8 years ago
Quoted from DragonPin:

When the button is pressed I get no response on the digit display.
So if I'm seeing 4.8 at pin40 then the reset circuit is good?
Roms in the game are kinda unknown.
History of machine is it has sat for over 10 years. No tampering with the roms as far as I know.
How can I test the cmos ram? Could that be contributing?
Thanks for the reply

Your reset is fine if p40 is 4.8v.

Treat it like a non working 6802 computer at this point. I would remove the driver board and boot it up on the bench with the test ROM. If the test ROM does not run. Check the CPU external clock at CPU p37 (should be about 0.8MHz or 2.5vdc or so).

If the clock is good, swap in a new known good 6808 CPU

Still nothing i would maybe suspect the PIA. A lot of times you can tell if the PIA crapped the bed if the a bunch of outputs are floating.

Still nothing pull the ROMs out and run the board with only the CPU installed. Check every address and data line. See if any are not pulsing like the rest (buffer failure, i know the address lines are buffered, i forget if the data is buffered in s7).

Still nothing start investigating the chip select for the test ROM at IC17... It should at least pulse somewhat after a valid reset.

#5 8 years ago

Sounds like I need to get ahold of a test rom somehow. I have never used it before but I can see how useful it would be.
Another note on this, I did swap out the 6808 with a new 6802. No change in behavior.

Thanks for the help, I'm going to do some more investigating as you suggest. I only have a DMM at the moment to help me.

#6 8 years ago

Remove the driver board and see if the LED behavior changes. A faulty interconnect will lock up the MPU.

#7 8 years ago

Suspected that too given the age. I separated the boards interconnect and tried that. Same result just a flash and going blank.

#8 8 years ago
Quoted from DragonPin:

Suspected that too given the age. I separated the boards interconnect and tried that. Same result just a flash and going blank.

If it blinks consistently one time when you start up , that means the CPU isnt completely locked up and the main PIA is probably OK.

Verifying the ROMs are good would be the next least invasive step. The test ROM is a good idea too. You need one burned on 2532 for system 7.

#9 8 years ago

Thanks for the help, this has really racked my brain. Ive got the test rom and new game roms on the way. I will keep you posted.

#10 8 years ago

Following this Thread to, hopefully, see a happy ending!

#11 8 years ago

Make sure your Blanking isn't active.

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Make sure your Blanking isn't active.

Hi, how can I reliably test this? Only test I did for blanking was to make sure the continuity thru the interconnect was ok.
Still waiting on new roms...

Thanks!

#13 8 years ago
Quoted from DragonPin:

Hi, how can I reliably test this? Only test I did for blanking was to make sure the continuity thru the interconnect was ok.
Still waiting on new roms...
Thanks!

Blanking is like a safety check to make sure the software is running so outputs, like solenoids, do not lock on when the computer is crashed out.

The blanking will only go high if the display PIA is active. The blanking circuit looks for one display PIA output to be changing state. If it stops changing state, it is assumed the software has crashed so the blanking goes low disabling PIA controlled outputs like lamps and solenoids.

The blanking section itself can fail, but low blanking is typically a symptom of a non working MPU, not the cause.

#14 8 years ago

Installed new roms and unfortunately I'm getting the exact same result, total bummer.
I added a video of what I'm getting when I cycle power.
I ordered leons test rom too, I guess my next step will be figuring out how to use that and hopefully that will reveal something.
Thanks again for the help

#15 8 years ago

I'm lost on this one, if anybody has any idea or have seen this behavior before I would love some clues, thank you!

#16 8 years ago

Radical solution : Get rid of it and sell it to me

#17 8 years ago

Haven't seen it mentioned but we can assume that the ROM sockets are of good quality and the 40 pin interconnect has been properly serviced?

#18 8 years ago
Quoted from valentin27:

Radical solution : Get rid of it and sell it to me

Im fixing it for a friend.... trust me if i could convince him to sell it to me I would, love this game.

#19 8 years ago
Quoted from chucktee:

Haven't seen it mentioned but we can assume that the ROM sockets are of good quality and the 40 pin interconnect has been properly serviced?

I have tested the continuity of the chip legs to the board thru the socket, but no I have not replaced the sockets so I suppose they could be in question...

The interconnect has not been serviced, It would be wise to do that and cant rule that out, just a pain in the butt and was hoping to get some response from the game to start with. I just didn't expect the interconnect to cause this type of behavior.
I have in the heat of testing tried a different driver board that has new female connectors but I get this same result no matter what I do.

Thanks for the input

#20 8 years ago

Do you have a test eprom? Looks like the reset section isn't working.

#21 8 years ago
Quoted from Brypten:

Do you have a test eprom? Looks like the reset section isn't working.

Hi, ya I did get Leons test rom. Ive never used one before, and lack the logic probe but that looks like the next road I must go down.

I am getting 4.8v and 12v at what looks like the appropriate areas but I suspected the reset circuit too.

#22 8 years ago

Use Leon's test rom, you won't need the logic probe (or a led and resistor) to see if the reset section is working. At least you will know which board is causing the problem. The double board setup is a pain to work on, but at least with Leon's test rom you can do a pretty exhaustive bench test.

#23 8 years ago

I had some time this morning to bench test the MPU using Leons test Rom.
The result I got was exactly the same as when installed in the game. This surprised me. When 5v is applied on the bench I get a quick flash of 0 and the two LEDs then its goes blank. Does this mean the test rom is not running?
I can measure 5v at pin 40, clock signal is present, I am getting the same voltage readings as if it were in the game.

I am new to this procedure, the next step is to test IC4 thru 8. Can this be achieved with a DMM? do I measure DC voltage across the input and outputs? if any of these test "bad" does that mean its that chip or something else down stream?
Sorry for my ignorance on this, hoping to get a little clarity on the test procedure.

thanks!

#24 8 years ago

Are you running Leon's test rom with the other roms installed? Take those out, it sound like one of those is bad. When the led's flash and go off, the board is trying to boot. It could be a blanking issue too, but I think that Leon's rom will still flash the led's on and off if there is a blanking problem. You installed the test rom at IC17, correct?

#25 8 years ago

Hi, ya I have the test rom at IC17 and all other roms were removed.

#26 8 years ago

Is the display flashing then going blank a normal thing when running the test rom? This board is just kicking my ass.

#27 8 years ago
Quoted from DragonPin:

Is the display flashing then going blank a normal thing when running the test rom? This board is just kicking my ass.

Are you running the test ROM in the game with all the connectors attached?? The test rom is a bench thing. Check your solenoid fuse also..... With all respect...it seems you don't know what you are doing. It might be a good idea to send your boards to a experienced technician (John Wart Jr, Barakandl - Andrew, ..... )

#28 8 years ago
Quoted from MarAlb:

Are you running the test ROM in the game with all the connectors attached?? The test rom is a bench thing. Check your solenoid fuse also..... With all respect...it seems you don't know what you are doing. It might be a good idea to send your boards to a experienced technician (John Wart Jr, Barakandl - Andrew, ..... )

With all due respect if you read my posts you can see I said bench test. I don't know what I'm doing with test rom your right, I'm trying to learn and add to my knowledge.
Im sorry but posts like this are not constructive, If you don't have any real tech advice please move along. Solenoid fuse... gee never thought of that....

#29 8 years ago
Quoted from DragonPin:

Is the display flashing then going blank a normal thing when running the test rom? This board is just kicking my ass.

Not really. With the test rom installed the display should be flashing 0 and the leds should be blinking on and off. It's been awhile since I worked on a system 7, lately they have all been system 6 and lower.

Did you burn the test rom yourself or purchase it? I believe that someone stated it before, it should be a 2532 for a system 7.

#30 8 years ago
Quoted from Brypten:

Not really. With the test rom installed the display should be flashing 0 and the leds should be blinking on and off. It's been awhile since I worked on a system 7, lately they have all been system 6 and lower.
Did you burn the test rom yourself or purchase it? I believe that someone stated it before, it should be a 2532 for a system 7.

Hi, I purchased the test rom from John Wart, ThatPinballPlace. Its new and I assumed it would be of the correct spec. Not sure how to tell the difference in chips, I will look it up.

I was really surprised by the result too. I have followed all of the documentation very carefully and I see mention of the test not starting and possible causes. However I at least expected the display to flash or lock up.
Thank you very much for your help so far, I am digging deeper into the documentation to find some clue, was just hoping someone with real world experience could help me out as Im getting odd results that dont match up.

#31 8 years ago

Ah, you were probably referring to the onboard 7 segment display at the CPU board and not the displays in the backbox. My bad. I'm sorry for that. I am repairing circuitboards for 30 years already. Dead pinball circuitboards can be divided in roughly 3 categories:

-Those who died due to age or a short circuit somewhere in the playfield
-Those who died by leaking batteries (can be hard to repair)
-Those who have been butchered to death by some "Handy Harry" (makes me sad)

Maybe I saw the last category too many times. If my car is broken I bring it to a car repair shop, there are skilled people there (skills I am lacking in this area) with the proper tools (which I don't have); I will probably screw up and pay a bigger bill in the end when ignoring this and doing it myself anyway. But we might disagree here and I think this is not what you want to hear.

As I already said, I repair a long time already and I even created my own test ROM's as Leons' is a bit unreliable with memory testing.

I will try to help.....

-system 7 boards need +12V ( Reset circuitry) and +5V (Logic)
-Pin 40 needs to be "1", if "0" the /reset signal is active and the (test)program will go nowhere
-you can check if Leon's test ROM is running at addressline 6 pin 15 at he 6802/6808 CPU
-the program is not starting due to a defective 6802/6808 CPU
-the program is not starting due to a missing clock signal
-the program is not starting due to bad IC sockets
-the program is not starting due to a defective chipselect circuitry (LS138) or check traces if there have been leaking batteries.
-the program is not starting due to a defective chip jamming a dataline or addressline. Leon's test ROM needs only a few chips to run. You can remove both memories and both PIA's. Is the program starting now (a6 pin 15)? If positive.....re-install the removed chips 1 by 1 to find the culprit.
-The onboard 7 segment display is controlled by PIA 1 (display) via a TTL BCD decoder. This might fool you. The program is running but this PIA or BCD decoder prevents to show you anything at the onboard 7 segment display. You can swap this PIA with one from the driverboard or so if socketed.
-.....................

Good luck and I won't bother you anymore in this thread

#32 8 years ago
Quoted from MarAlb:

Ah, you were probably referring to the onboard 7 segment display at the CPU board and not the displays in the backbox. My bad. I'm sorry for that. I am repairing circuitboards for 30 years already. Dead pinball circuitboards can be divided in roughly 3 categories:
-Those who died due to age or a short circuit somewhere in the playfield
-Those who died by leaking batteries (can be hard to repair)
-Those who have been butchered to death by some "Handy Harry" (makes me sad)
Maybe I saw the last category too many times. If my car is broken I bring it to a car repair shop, there are skilled people there (skills I am lacking in this area) with the proper tools (which I don't have); I will probably screw up and pay a bigger bill in the end when ignoring this and doing it myself anyway. But we might disagree here and I think this is not what you want to hear.
As I already said, I repair a long time already and I even created my own test ROM's as Leons' is a bit unreliable with memory testing.
I will try to help.....
-system 7 boards need +12V ( Reset circuitry) and +5V (Logic)
-Pin 40 needs to be "1", if "0" the /reset signal is active and the (test)program will go nowhere
-you can check if Leon's test ROM is running at addressline 6 pin 15 at he 6802/6808 CPU
-the program is not starting due to a defective 6802/6808 CPU
-the program is not starting due to a missing clock signal
-the program is not starting due to bad IC sockets
-the program is not starting due to a defective chipselect circuitry (LS138) or check traces if there have been leaking batteries.
-the program is not starting due to a defective chip jamming a dataline or addressline. Leon's test ROM needs only a few chips to run. You can remove both memories and both PIA's. Is the program starting now (a6 pin 15)? If positive.....re-install the removed chips 1 by 1 to find the culprit.
-The onboard 7 segment display is controlled by PIA 1 (display) via a TTL BCD decoder. This might fool you. The program is running but this PIA or BCD decoder prevents to show you anything at the onboard 7 segment display. You can swap this PIA with one from the driverboard or so if socketed.
-.....................
Good luck and I won't bother you anymore in this thread

Now THAT is a constructive post Thank you very much this helps a great deal. I will report back once I get a chance to digest this and continue testing. I may end up turning to a professional in the end as a last resort but I really like learning as much of this stuff as I can understand.

#33 8 years ago

Is there data buffers on system 7? I know they took them out during parts of 6, but if not check those.... I find bad buffers quite often. The address buffers less likely to fail.

Sometimes the 5101 will shit out so hard to mucks up the data/address bus.

When i really get stuck i pull of the RAMs, PIAs, ROMs, and only have the 6808 installed. In this state it is pretty easy to check every address, data, chip enable etc. As they all will be pulsing.

9 times out of 10 when these boards are dead, all it needs is all new IC sockets, headers, and AMI PIAs replaced.

2 weeks later
#34 8 years ago

Final update, ended up just ordering the rottendog combo board.

I replaced all sockets, including PIa, ram, cpu. new header pins and interconnect. Board was still dead and Test rom would not run on the bench.
Certainly way above my experience to determine the cause.

I want to thank everyone that contributed to this thread and helped me thru the process, I learned a ton but was unfortunately not successful. Maybe next time.

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