(Topic ID: 309841)

So what happened? what are your thoughts? TAF / TZ

By ShinyBall

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by mbaumle
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    There are 92 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 2 years ago

    Recalling the days where for years, Addams family and Twilight zone battled for No. 1 and 2 position. TZ is now number 9 and Taf dropped to 19. I had both. IMO...Taf still scores higher than #19. So, Without getting into the other machines in between, why arn't they still neck and neck?

    I personally would rather have my Addams back over my excellent TZ at the time (actually both were excellent condition).
    If CGC were to bring back either...I'm in. But, what separated them so far away from each other?

    They used to be like brothers.
    Great games but the lineup always changes.

    #2 2 years ago

    I can’t remember but I think the weighting or something changed in the formula?

    I don’t care they are both good games and I enjoy them and if you do too that’s all that matters.

    31
    #3 2 years ago

    TZ will always be the greatest. Never cared for TAF that much although its a great game

    24
    #4 2 years ago

    Lots of new people that only know Stern machines.. so the rankings adjust.

    I like TZ more

    #5 2 years ago

    …and sadly they will keep dropping.

    TZs and TAFs are mostly going in private homes/gamerooms/man caves, not arcades and bars where there’s a ton of exposure for many, many new players to play

    #6 2 years ago

    TAF and TZ are effectively the exact same game rules wise, but TZ wins because it has far more interesting mechs and design than an autoflip mini flipper and a hand with a magnet stuck in it. Literally everything else that Addams has, TZ has as well....plus a buttload more.

    #7 2 years ago

    Guess I'm getting TZ schooled today...I loved that game too..just missing my taf a bit more. Just surprised that they ain't close anymore to each other.
    Both are commanding big $$

    #8 2 years ago

    TZ feels more modern. To people accustomed to newer rulesets Addams feels very clunky

    #9 2 years ago

    The problem is that TZ is the 9th best game ever, while TAF is only the 19th best game ever made.

    No argument or discussion can change these immutable facts.

    Pray that they don’t become worse games over time.

    #10 2 years ago
    Quoted from ShinyBall:

    Guess I'm getting TZ schooled today...I loved that game too..just missing my taf a bit more. Just surprised that they ain't close anymore to each other.
    Both are commanding big $$

    We prefer TAF over TZ. The fact both are still worth big $$$ shows how good they are.

    #11 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    The problem is that TZ is the 9th best game ever, while TAF is only the 19th best game ever made.
    No argument or discussion can change these immutable facts.
    Pray that they don’t become worse games over time.

    I always think about Levi.....and wonder what direction he's gonna go in his response.

    TZ and TAF belong side by side....

    #12 2 years ago

    Have both

    Love both

    Who cares about rankings??

    I agree classic wms/Bally pins are few and far between on location

    So new players young and old might never experienced these

    My son who loves pinball never seen a TZ in person until it was in the collection and was willing to let go a newer stern to see it here

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from ShinyBall:

    Guess I'm getting TZ schooled today...I loved that game too..just missing my taf a bit more. Just surprised that they ain't close anymore to each other.
    Both are commanding big $$

    TAF has more of a charm factor for me.. callouts and ticking flippers, just so much fun.

    #14 2 years ago

    Sold my TAF within 2 months of owning it. Still have my TZ after 20 years.

    10
    #15 2 years ago

    I wouldn’t get caught up in the rankings here. I find them to be worthless.
    Both games will always be highly desirable.

    #16 2 years ago

    They are still at the top IMO along with ST:TNG and
    TOM. Maybe since they are rated lower prices will tumble?

    #17 2 years ago

    Two words - Recency bias.

    Two other words - Apples, Oranges.

    When you have a ranking system that involves one of the issues above, it's a problem. When both are present, then the ranking system is suspect.

    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from ShinyBall:

    So what happened to TAF and TZ ?

    Quoted from Mike_J:

    I find them to be worthless.

    Just kidding, but see what can happen when you take a quote out of context?

    #19 2 years ago

    Sold them both when I sold off most of my collection. I miss them the most. But if I could only buy one back, it would be Twilight Zone. Lost in the Zone is incredible.

    #20 2 years ago

    Relative ratings over time are a concern now?

    Ratings as a whole are a bit silly. All pinball is great! But greatness is subjective. (See the Greatest Guitarist thread, for example!) It would behoove one to ignore the actual numbers and concentrate on which area of the rankings a game is in, like near the top, middle, bottom, etc.

    All I know is if there would have been more Rick & Mortys made, and if it had arrived more "dialed in," it would be rated much higher... and it's already "near the top."

    #21 2 years ago

    I own both,I play TZ much more than TAF.

    #22 2 years ago

    Stars, Whirlwind, Twilight Zone, Lord of The Rings, and Godzilla may be the best pinball machines ever made, but as they are made across 5 decades they are hard to compare. It's like trying to compare a 67 Shelby Mustang with a new one. They are great, but different.

    #23 2 years ago

    Wait a minute. I'm supposed to check the pinside ratings on a game before deciding how much i should like it?

    #24 2 years ago

    Rankings will always be a little weird. I’m sure as soon as Rush has 15 ratings or whatever it will but #1 all time … at least until more votes come in then it will drop. You could put more weight into a higher number of ratings but then older games would always be at the top bc more people played them. Also, if most (I said most not all) take their bias or nostalgia out of the equation and say TZ or MM or whatever just came out now for the first time ever, they would never be at the top as they just didnt have the technology that newer games do. So it’s hard to compare games separated by decades of improvements. You may love super Mario brothers and say it’s the GOAT but if never existed and this was released it today it wouldn’t compare to whatever the newest game is (not a gamer so I don’t have a good reference - Halo or whatever). How do you fairly compare a non-color DMD game to one with a TV in it? Or with 2022 coding to 1980s coding? So enjoy what you enjoy and don’t worry so much about what others rank them - especially since no one has played them all.

    #25 2 years ago

    TZ is what got me into pinball, so it will always hold a special place in my heart. Despite the bias, I'm team TZ due to the layout, shots, toys, and overall package. TAF is fun, but pretty shallow imo. I got bored of it in short order. It still holds a place in pinball history though.

    Start a poll

    #26 2 years ago

    TZ is the better game. Its a true timeless classic.

    #27 2 years ago

    I own both and love both, but TZ is my favorite overall. I do not think CGC will ever remake a widebody nor a game with so many mechs as TZ. Imagine what they would charge for a modern day CGCTZ....
    What would they charge? 25k-35K? Seriously, I wonder?

    #28 2 years ago

    Had a TAF, traded it for a TZ.

    TAF has all the same Lawlor design tropes that were used in Funhouse and Whirlwind. Seriously, compare the layouts. To me, it was just more of the same.

    TZ is just… different. Shots feel unique, risks were taken, it has loads of clever rules, and there’s literally nothing else like it out there.

    #29 2 years ago

    Both are amazing & timeless 90s classic pins. My mint TAFG is bolted to the floor but I still miss my TZ immensely.

    #30 2 years ago

    Today's modern noob looks at production numbers and doesn't realize what a disaster TZ was when it came out.

    Yeah, it sold a shitload, based upon the success and riches bestowed upon operators by TAF.

    But it basically broke instantly, repeatedly. It didn't make money. It flopped on location. It was always broken. Ops were drilling holes in the clock to help it cool down.

    TZ taught operators not to buy new games, and just continue making money with their aging TAFs. TZ taught pinball companies NOT to allow designers - even successful ones - to do whatever the Hell they wanted.

    That's why Stern isn't making TZs for you people. Ops (and owners) prefer games that work and make money.

    #31 2 years ago

    I've never understood why TAF commands what it does, especially since there are so many of them produced. It's a decent game for sure, but I don't particularly care for the layout - Everything feels tight, so you better like threading shots, otherwise it's up the middle all day.
    I'd rather own a TZ no question (and I have in the past, but traded it).

    #32 2 years ago

    Wow. It's a TZ love fest! I always thought these 2 ran together for so long and was curious why they are getting further apart as time goes on.

    Tz holding it's own. Just like someone else mentioned...It must be the "charm" that draws me back to Taf.

    Interesting thoughts...thx

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    But it basically broke instantly, repeatedly. It didn't make money. It flopped on location. It was always broken.

    I like how Lawlor even begrudgingly admits this in interviews today.

    TZ was trash back in the day. Too complex. Too hard to maintain. Too hard for players to understand. My dad, who absolutely LOVES TAF, HATES my TZ. “I need a PhD to understand this thing. What do I even do? What’s with this white ball?” He laments.

    Despite all this. I think it’s terrific. It’s like a love letter to enthusiasts.

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    TZ taught pinball companies NOT to allow designers - even successful ones - to do whatever the Hell they wanted.

    Guess hell froze over when JJP green lit
    Dialed In.

    Quoted from ShinyBall:

    Tz holding it's own. Just like someone else mentioned...It must be the "charm" that draws me back to Taf.

    Both ooze with charm often lacking in newer games. These are timeless titles regardless of current ratings.

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from mbaumle:

    I like how Lawlor even begrudgingly admits this in interviews today.
    TZ was trash back in the day. Too complex. Too hard to maintain. Too hard for players to understand. My dad, who absolutely LOVES TAF, HATES my TZ. “I need a PhD to understand this thing. What do I even do? What’s with this white ball?” He laments.
    Despite all this. I think it’s terrific. It’s like a love letter to enthusiasts.

    We all know what happens when you tell Pat Lawlor "Hey Pat, do whatever you want."

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    #36 2 years ago

    Have them both. Play TAF more. TAF is what got me into pinball. TZ is awesome.

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    #37 2 years ago

    Just like the pinside average values for games... the 100 most popular is way out of whack. Can't believe either.

    #38 2 years ago

    Never voted, who cares

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from Yoko2una:

    Two words - Recency bias.
    Two other words - Apples, Oranges.
    When you have a ranking system that involves one of the issues above, it's a problem. When both are present, then the ranking system is suspect.

    How about these two words: Keith Elwin. All of his games are ranked higher.

    How about two better words: Lyman Sheats. Look how many games he coded that are higher than both TAF and TZ.

    And if we were ranking from the standpoint of guys like me (amusements operators that have been doing it all their life), no pin would be higher than TAF. Best. Earning. Pin. EVER.

    #40 2 years ago

    Becuase they are not as good as a lot of games produced since. Simple as that.

    #41 2 years ago

    I have two twilight zones…(and two AFM’s)

    #42 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheCnyPinGuy:

    I agree classic wms/Bally pins are few and far between on location

    B/W’s are your only choice to play at our bar. Just wish I could fit all of them on the floor at once rather than rotating them

    #43 2 years ago

    If the TZ rules could be upgraded to be as deep as a Lyman or elwin game then it would easily be #1. Newer sterns advantage is deeper code and that’s it.

    #44 2 years ago

    I always wanted a TAF - bought an IPB playfield, plastics, cabinet decals, kept looking for one to restore, and every time I played one i was underwhelmed. Finally just accepted that I couldnt bring myself to like the game and sold all the stuff.

    Have had my TZ about 20 years.

    Still haven't made it to LITZ.

    #45 2 years ago

    TAF got me into pinball. TZ always kicked my butt and it was my love-to-hate machine for years. Stepped away from it. Years later I got to spend an hour with one on free-play and that had me hooked. And then another hour. And then another hour. Now I own one and cant get enough of it.

    Such a contrast the games of new…. Love GZ, for example, but games like TAF and TZ have a completely different feel. Like they are taunting you. Hard.

    In conclusion…. TZ.

    #46 2 years ago

    I always have to own one of the two. TZ is probably my favorite, but they are neck and neck.

    In fact, I have a restored TAF with new playfield cleared and built by HEP. If anyone has a comparable TZ and wants to talk swap, slide into these DMs.

    #47 2 years ago

    It does not matter what others think. People are using the rankings to not only go shopping, but after the fact, to justify their $15,000 purchases. It really makes little sense to me. I think I stopped caring when I started playing in tournaments/leagues around 14 years ago.

    #48 2 years ago

    Everybody clamors for:

    JJP world under glass
    +modern stern flipper feel,
    +unbelievable theme integration
    +non linear code with multiple ways to attack
    +B/W classic charm

    = Twilight Zone

    TZ was so far ahead of its time it's nuts.

    Add a little more code depth
    + an insane integrated topper

    =TZr

    +rework/ add a shot to the back left
    +repeatable loop

    and it would check every box there ever was.

    #49 2 years ago

    I always knew my TZ was missing something and finally I have the answer:

    Integrated topper!

    #50 2 years ago

    Both are good games! I have a TZ in my collection so I guess that says something!

    There are 92 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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