(Topic ID: 21116)
Albany, OR
Calgary, AB
We must be in the midst of some kind of mania, no way is any Stern game worth that kind of coin.
Whatever it is about Tron that makes sane people go nuts, I just don't get, it's an average game at best, even all pimped out, IMO. 
Quoted from RobT:Guys, chill. I'll be the first to say it: SHILL BIDDING / BUYER!!
That's a possibility and we will never truly know. But why would you shill bid on a Buy it Now?
Quoted from BoJo:That's a possibility and we will never truly know. But why would you shill bid on a Buy it Now?
To drive up the market price on certain titles?
I have to disagree with that. Tron couldn't hold MM's jock, even on a good day. Do you have production numbers for Tron?? The rest of us don't.
Quoted from hawkeye11:I have to disagree with that. Tron couldn't hold MM's jock, even on a good day. Do you have production numbers for Tron?? The rest of us don't.
I have both games. I think Tron is actually a lot more fun. It's has better sound, a better sound track, a way better light show, and the flow is great. MM is neat, but to be honest, a lot of the newer stuff Stern is putting out makes it look dated.
Quoted from markmon:I have both games. I think Tron is actually a lot more fun. It's has better sound, a better sound track, a way better light show, and the flow is great. MM is neat, but to be honest, a lot of the newer stuff Stern is putting out makes it look dated.
Seriously, couldn't disagree more strongly, what Stern is putting out now just shows how fantastic the WMS games from the late 90's were, still better in just about every way. I like a few of the Stern's but IMO, they are just not in the same league.
The past 5 stern releases can make older games look, feel, and play out dated. Why bother with a 80's/90's camaro when you can drive a new vette.
Quoted from hawkeye11:Do you have production numbers for Tron?? The rest of us don't.
The game in question here is TRON LE. There were only 400 TRON LE's made. Of which, word is that only about 250 are here in the United States.
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=5707
There were 4,016 Medieval Madness's made. Ten times the production run of TRON LE.
The Stern WMS argument has been going on for years, nothing much has changed and you still have cheerleaders on both sides. Both companies have made some winners and losers. Stern still hasn't done anything ground breaking yet to make the WMS pins look dated aside from color changing GI LEDs to date.
Personally I'm going to sit back and enjoy the good pins from both companies.
Quoted from dgpinball:Seriously, couldn't disagree more strongly, what Stern is putting out now just shows how fantastic the WMS games from the late 90's were, still better in just about every way. I like a few of the Stern's but IMO, they are just not in the same league.
Ehhhhh, I don't know about that. While some games are better, Williams had a bunch of lesser popular titles in the mid-late 90's : Congo, Dirty Harry, Flintstones, Jackbot, Johnny M, Junkyard, No Fear. Now in no way am I bashing those titles (Jackbot is my favorite game and I love Congo, DH, Flint, and JY), but those aren't quite up to snuff with a LOTR, SM, Tron, POTC, ACDC, etc. And games like TotAN, MB, and CV tend to be more eye candy than playability by a lot of people's standards (though I think they are great games too, especially since I just picked up a CV). And of course we can bring in the whole Pin2K discussion and how emotional people get talking about those games and how many hate them (I own both, so again I am not bashing) 
I think if you take MM out of the picture (the diamond standard of what a near perfect game should be to most people), these two companies are pretty close to each other with good and bad (though Stern did have some real stinkers). If we take the last 10+ years of each, B/W gets Popeye and Hurricane in the list.... the TRS and RCT of B/W 
I think it's real. They cost what they cost. Tron LE may be headed into the BBB range.
Let me express my personal opinion on MM and Tron , you have to shoot the middle a lot on both, so I suck at them and get STDM way too often to enjoy them. Give me something a little off center and I enjoy it more. Buy what you like to play. If you enjoy titles that cost less, ROCK OUT! you win 
you are the smartest person in the room. I think you are already ahead of the masses as a pinhead because you enjoy playing pinball, and believe it or not, some people don't. I feel sorry for those people.
as an aside - if you have not taken the leap and tried out a good System 11 like Whirlwind , DO IT! I did and may buy several more, trading out some DMD titles.
Personally I'm not sure how much more "advanced" the stern games are. I like the new sterns, so not a hater at all. However, it seems like there are lots of simple shots like spinners, ramps etc. I know there are a few cool innovative things like the spiderman upside down ramp deal and trons disc in the middle. However, it seems like a higher majority of the 90's pins were not a commercial them and focused more so on making a sweet game that was deep and highly relevant to the theme itself. A lot more creativity to make a new theme rather than basing things off movies. Just my 2 cents
Quoted from Max_Badazz:Ehhhhh, I don't know about that. While some games are better, Williams had a bunch of lesser popular titles in the mid-late 90's : Congo, Dirty Harry, Flintstones, Jackbot, Johnny M, junkyard, No Fear. Now in no way am I bashing those titles (Jackbot is my favorite game and I love Congo, DH, Flint, and JY), but those aren't quite up to snuff with a LOTR, SM, Tron, POTC, ACDC, etc. And games like TotAN, MB, and CV tend to be more eye candy than playability by a lot of people's standards (though I think they are great games too, especially since I just picked up a CV). And of course we can bring in the whole Pin2K discussion and how emotional people get talking about those games and how many hate them (I own both, so again I am not bashing)
I think if you take MM out of the picture (the diamond standard of what a near perfect game should be to most people), these two companies are pretty close to each other with good and bad (though Stern did have some real stinkers). If we take the last 10+ years of each, B/W gets Popeye and Hurricane in the list.... the TRS and RCT of B/W
You make some valid points, but to me there is just a sameness to all the Stern games that drives me crazy 
The Stern games that stands out to me is Family Guy, it was creative in a way that most others are not, very difficult for me to put into words, more of a feel thing than anything else.
Take the last 3 sterns, and with the exception of LED lighting, compare them to the games Williams put out 20 years ago, Addams, T2, TZ etc, could you really tell which was the newer game? Compare that to the state of computers, and other electronic tech, it's not even close!
Anyway, as far as the original point of this thread, I will give credit to Stern for apparently tapping into a collecting mania, there seems to almost be a fear that if you don't get one of these "LE's" right away, you'll never get one, it's similar to what video game makers used to do with their consoles and selected titles, restrict early production to create a frenzy, only of course in that world it's on an infinitely bigger scale. I'm sure there are people on this forum who have a standing preorder for any new LE at their distributors just so they don't miss out 
In any case, it's a free market, if you think you are getting good value in a Tron LE for close to $11K, then it's your money, but I sure hope you like it, because you aren't likely to ever get your $$$ out of it, especially if this bubble we seems to be in bursts 
Quoted from BoJo:That's a possibility and we will never truly know. But why would you shill bid on a Buy it Now?
Lets just say that the seller has a history. I posted about this before on RGP and gave evidence of possible shill bidding. I'm not going to take the time or effort to go look for that thread.
People can shill bid on a BIN for various reasons. Watch for this one to be re-listed.
Check the sellers other auctions. He does not personally have possession of any of those high dollar pins, he is trying to sell to them for someone else.
Quoted from dgpinball:Take the last 3 sterns, and with the exception of LED lighting, compare them to the games Williams put out 20 years ago, Addams, T2, TZ etc, could you really tell which was the newer game? Compare that to the state of computers, and other electronic tech, it's not even close!
When you compare it to newer tech, yeah - it's not close... but pinball sells nostalgia, not "newer tech". If we wanted newer tech, you could go play pinball on a PS3.
If you compare what Stern did in their games, they have gone down a few different roads to make their games stand out. In their last three titles, you have these incredible soundtracks that there was nothing like before. The call outs are infinitely more varied.
There are things you can't see, like USB code updates.
There are things that you can see, but aren't overly obvious like the different DMD screens.
So yeah, if you just look at the machine side by side, it might be difficult to know which one is older than the other, but if you understand the technology it should be pretty easy to tell. It's like playing Galaxian on an arcade machine, or playing it emulated on your Xbox. If they are doing it right, it doesn't look *that* different, but you still can tell if you look at it with any depth.
Finally, the thing that I do think that Stern has done for the last five or so years that really does improve the look of their machines is they are much brighter. I know that I have noticed it on a number of machines, WoF and POTC are the ones that come to mind, but if you put them side-by-side with a B/W title, the new ones just look so much brighter.
Again, it's not overly obvious, but there are differences... ultimately though, when you're selling a product which one of it's main attractions is nostalgia, you can't change it up too much or no one cares. Look at how well the Ultrapin sold.
Quoted from hawkeye11:I have to disagree with that. Tron couldn't hold MM's jock, even on a good day. Do you have production numbers for Tron?? The rest of us don't.
There were 400 Tron LE's made. I think that number is well settled. Many say there were under 1500 pros made.
Quoted from hawkeye11:I have to disagree with that. Tron couldn't hold MM's jock, even on a good day. Do you have production numbers for Tron?? The rest of us don't.
My Tron LE and MM are sitting side by side, and I completely disagree with you about Tron not being able to hold MM's jock even on a good day.
Very different pins, and each has things that I like better than the other. Both kick ass, and are two of my favorite pins ever.
I bought that machine. It's my first pin and the only reason I got it is because it's a TRON LE and I'm a pretty avid TRON collector that missed out when they first came out.
Now, before you blast me for how stupid I am, I did do some research for NIB TRON LEs and they all seem to be going for about $10K. This unit has supposedly just a few hundred plays, plus some mods I would have done anyway.
That said, now that I have discovered Pinside, I feel I got into this without the benefit of all the knowledge that would have been available. Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Hopefully the machine is in a condition as good as the seller described it (it should arrive this week). You'll probably see me posting questions about mods and other tweaks that can be done. I hope you'll extend me the courtesy of your knowledge and don't hold my pin n00biness against me. Thanks!
Welcome and congrats! You'll love the game. Yes, you overpaid, but almost every new pinball owner overpays for his/her first game (including me). Doesn't matter unless you have to sell it.
Quoted from hawkeye11:I have to disagree with that. Tron couldn't hold MM's jock, even on a good day. Do you have production numbers for Tron?? The rest of us don't.
I like Tron LE more than MM, and I hate the Tron movie...lol. Different strokes. I'd sell all my B/W games before Tron LE...it's that fun to me.
Welcome and be glad you found a game you wanted. Hold onto that one. I sold mine a few weeks after I bought it and still regret that. Thanks for joining us 
Quoted from BoJo:But why would you shill bid on a Buy it Now?
Quoted from Shoot_Again:To drive up the market price on certain titles?
Quoted from RobT:Lets just say that the seller has a history. I posted about this before on RGP and gave evidence of possible shill bidding. I'm not going to take the time or effort to go look for that thread.
People can shill bid on a BIN for various reasons. Watch for this one to be re-listed.
So much for it being a shill bid. 
Welcome, and yes it's a great game. Being relatively close though (SD to OC), you could have/should have picked it up in person IMO.
I have both games. I think Tron is actually a lot more fun. It's has better sound, a better sound track, a way better light show, and the flow is great. MM is neat, but to be honest, a lot of the newer stuff Stern is putting out makes it look dated.
Yeah like dated inthe way that makes you think what happened to good orignal themes, non photoshopped crap artwork and quality workmanship & materials! Yeah but if ya like crappy looking, cheaply crafted, non original pinball with great light shows... THEN TRON RULES!
Quoted from rommy:as an aside - if you have not taken the leap and tried out a good System 11 like Whirlwind , DO IT! I did and may buy several more, trading out some DMD titles.
Agree, my favorite pinball experiences are on system 11 pins, it just feels like they were not trying so hard to gain your attention with shatty gimmicks based on a movie or a previous established theme, hence WW, earthshaker, Fire, Taxi, mousin around, hell, even transporter and big guns, these titles are creative to start, I would rather play these, or better yet, buy 8-10 of them for the price of said Tron, which is a kick ass game, but bang for your buck, nope.. (MM is superior imho)
Quoted from bjorg:I bought that machine. It's my first pin and the only reason I got it is because it's a TRON LE and I'm a pretty avid TRON collector that missed out when they first came out.
Now, before you blast me for how stupid I am, I did do some research for NIB TRON LEs and they all seem to be going for about $10K. This unit has supposedly just a few hundred plays, plus some mods I would have done anyway.
That said, now that I have discovered Pinside, I feel I got into this without the benefit of all the knowledge that would have been available. Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Hopefully the machine is in a condition as good as the seller described it (it should arrive this week). You'll probably see me posting questions about mods and other tweaks that can be done. I hope you'll extend me the courtesy of your knowledge and don't hold my pin n00biness against me. Thanks!
Welcome aboard. I'm sure you will find plenty of help on this site. Sometimes you have to ask twice in case your original thread takes a twist in another direction! But its a good group of guys here.
You will get your money's worth of pleasure from her. 
Supply/Demand
Quantity/Quality
Bang for Buck
My views:
If you want an LE of anything then execute.
Buy what you want if/when it's on the market as it's drying up as a whole.
Buy Quality over Quantity makes your buys more enjoyable and liquid (asset).
As a whole I've stuck with games from $600-$2000 range, bang for buck out of my games has made me happy!
Nice, my pins are appreciating more than my stocks ! Glad I jumped on my LE right before it took off to the moon. I can't see Tron going any higher anytime soon. There are only 400 and supposedly half went over seas so I can see the rise, but there has to be a price that People say ok that's to high even for my dumb ass to overspend on.
I still haven't quite 'got it' with Tron. I love the music and the theme is decent, but I have played about 30 games on several different machines and not once has the game got my adrenaline pumping. I think AC/DC is the best of the recent Sterns, but neither game trounces MM, imho.
Brian
Quoted from HighProtein:Supply/Demand
Quantity/Quality
Bang for Buck
---
As a whole I've stuck with games from $600-$2000 range, bang for buck out of my games has made me happy!
No shame in that....that's been my general pinball purchase mantra....and I've generally always bought dirty or broken games that I could restore/repair myself which always resulted in a lower entry price. Granted, over the past few years I've said "F it" and splurged on a few NIB games ...but nothing beats a bang-for-the-buck pinball deal. I'll never forget the feeling of the $500 LOTR I picked up (and the screams of "YOU MOTHERF*CKER* from my pinball friends...hehe).
Quoted from Betelgeuse:I still haven't quite 'got it' with Tron. I love the music and the theme is decent, but I have played about 30 games on several different machines and not once has the game got my adrenaline pumping.
Ya know...it's intense yet zen-like at the same time...it's a beautiful thing.
Quoted from BoJo:So much for it being a shill bid.
Yep. Instead it was a noob who got taken, and even he admits that he overpaid.
Hell, I guess I should be happy about it. My Tron LE just went up in value. 
Quoted from Rarehero:I like TRON LE more than MM, and I hate the Tron movie...lol. Different strokes. I'd sell all my B/W games before TRON LE...it's that fun to me.
My Tron LE is the one and only pin that I can say is truly a "keeper" for me. Even other pins that I love I can let go in order to get something else and change things up. That isn't going to happen with Tron LE.
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