(Topic ID: 66176)

So is the pin market turning? And does it predict the economy?

By bladerunner

10 years ago


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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by maddog14
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    There are 198 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.
    #51 10 years ago

    The demand for the new pins are 'weeding' out pins that guys said "I'll never sell" to make room or fund their new purchase. You'll see more & more 'A' titles hitting the market over the next few years. IMO

    #52 10 years ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    I don't agree. I think that the technology has changed very little (except for WOZ) and as a result, the 90's games hold up well. In fact, they hold up REALLY well as there is more to do on them, code is complete for most of the games, and the layouts tend to be more unique. Sterns are brighter and shinier because they're new. In 20 years, I'll take a 40 year old B/W game over a 20 year old Stern.

    Now I agree completely. I just bought a CC because of the completed code. If it can be done to that game, if other WPC's feel old and outdated rules can easily be updated as well. I will take non licensed theme and stellar art packages on a 20 year old pin all day long over pixelated print shop and rehashed playfield layouts stuff from Stern.

    #53 10 years ago

    I think the market is a little more soft today than it was a year ago...

    #54 10 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    As long as more new people keep getting into pinball, the price will keep rising.
    Megan Fox got 4 new pinball machines delivered this week. I'm sure she has the cash and the room for more.

    Yes she did, but she and her husband are *not* new to pinball.

    They got rid of their BBB too. Not sure if they sold/traded anything else, so can't say if it was a net gain, loss, or stayed at the same number of pins that they already had.

    #55 10 years ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    Don't get me wrong. I enjoy playing newer Sterns too. There's no question about that. Is it because they are newer or better though? I like listening to newer music to have something fresh to listen to. On the other hand, I've listened to the Beatles Revolver at least 500 times and although it's not as exciting to me in that I know exactly how the songs sound, every chord change, every harmony, it's still the best. Just because you're a little worn out on something, that isn't the fault of the thing your worn out on.

    Music analogy is a great analogy. Classic Rock is classic for a reason, and the newer stuff if good enough will be classic in time.

    Quoted from RobT:

    (XMLE being a major exception in my opinion).

    I can see why it is not everybody's cup of tea, but it has turned out to be a good (Not Super Great) pin if people look at it for what it is and not what it could have been. If it would have had a better Wolverine to open up the lane without modding it, If it would have shipped with better code, and if it would have not have had the Aux. board problem, I think people would have liked it better.

    Too many ifs, and too much of too little too late.

    (Art, theme, dots, LEDs, modes, toys, etc...) could have made it a classic.

    People who are the second owner of this pin will probably have a different opinion than the early buyers.

    #56 10 years ago
    Quoted from ovfdfireman:

    I think I will base it on what I am seeing, and that is this, peoples collections are shifting towards newer games. Take a look at yours, as well as lots of others, It was not that long ago, people had exclusively williams, now its 50% or less in some cases, in favor of newer games like stern

    Quoted from RobT:

    I agree with this.
    I have (or will have when STLE gets here) 7 pins here (DM at my brothers). I have what I personally consider the 3 best B/W pins, and have no plans on letting them go. But the other 4 pins in my collection are newer Sterns (TRON LE, AC/DC, MET, and STLE). My collection used to be more heavily weighted towards the B/W pins. But once you've owned a good chunk of them, you get to the point where you look forward to the new pins being released, especially when Stern has had a pretty good run lately, overall (XMLE being a major exception in my opinion).

    Well, I'm an outlier (which I doubt is actually the case) because I don't have anything newer than 1997 and my oldest is 1975. I've owned plenty of Sterns and would consider several to be among the best pins ever made (TSPP, SM, IM) but the rest are in the broad mass of pins I can take or leave at anytime. But I find many of the B/Ws from the 90s and many older SS games to be much more fun to play. Deep rules are great (and probably necessary for the really good players) but they often seem like to much work. I also think the design, art, sound, and general polish of many B/W are still far ahead of most Sterns.

    As for prices or pins, I have no idea and no one else does either. I think the trend is up but there will be ups and downs like any hobby.

    #57 10 years ago
    Quoted from dmesserly:

    Well, I'm an outlier (which I doubt is actually the case) because I don't have anything newer than 1997 and my oldest is 1975. I've owned plenty of Sterns and would consider several to be among the best pins ever made (TSPP, SM, IM) but the rest are in the broad mass of pins I can take or leave at anytime. But I find many of the B/Ws from the 90s and many older SS games to be much more fun to play. Deep rules are great (and probably necessary for the really good players) but they often seem like to much work. I also think the design, art, sound, and general polish of many B/W are still far ahead of most Sterns.
    As for prices or pins, I have no idea and no one else does either. I think the trend is up but there will be ups and downs like any hobby.

    XM sure felt like work as does Avengers.

    ACDC and Metallica and Tron are fun - oh, could it be that man Lyman again??

    #58 10 years ago

    I enjoy some System11 games as much as any newer Stern I've played. To me, it's an economics issue. Why pay 4x as much, when 1x is still really, really fun?

    #59 10 years ago

    Guys will always pay top dollar for the older games that are in great condition. The older games that are not in top condition are not going to be getting the kind of money they are used to getting. A lot of people are just happy to get a game that they like that they can over look some flaws and still pay top $ but they may be the games that don't hold there value.

    #60 10 years ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    I think the market is a little more soft today than it was a year ago...

    So simple a sentence, yet true.

    #61 10 years ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    XM sure felt like work as does Avengers.
    ACDC and Metallica and Tron are fun - oh, could it be that man Lyman again??

    Heh.

    Can anybody see what the six pins that I currently have here at home have in common?

    AFM

    Tron

    MB

    MET

    AC/DC

    MM

    Come on, I know you can do it!

    #62 10 years ago

    One day I'll save enough to afford a pin

    #63 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Heh.
    Can anybody see what the six pins that I currently have here at home have in common?
    AFM
    Tron
    MB
    MET
    AC/DC
    MM
    Come on, I know you can do it!

    Fan layout, the one thing missing in my small collection. RFM?

    #64 10 years ago
    Quoted from t2:

    Guys will always pay top dollar for the older games that are in great condition. The older games that are not in top condition are not going to be getting the kind of money they are used to getting. A lot of people are just happy to get a game that they like that they can over look some flaws and still pay top $ but they may be the games that don't hold there value.

    It takes a lot of money to bring back one of these old games to life. Got a reimport FH, after changing practically everything on it (new playfield, decals, DMD, legs plastics, ramps, coin door, shooters, Rudy......), my 2k purchase cost me 6k. But it is like NIB and plays amazingly fast. Not worried if I will get my moneys back, but I am happy with it and feel good about preserving it.

    #65 10 years ago

    Maybe turning a around.. In the last month or so I've sold four pinballs.. Now I am looking for some new blood..

    #66 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Heh.
    Can anybody see what the six pins that I currently have here at home have in common?
    AFM
    Tron
    MB
    MET
    AC/DC
    MM
    Come on, I know you can do it!

    None of them are in my collection? Nailed it!

    #67 10 years ago

    The market sputters in Summer but its getting ready for a big Winter.
    ST coming on the market and the next rumored to have an LCD along.
    I have sold two in the last few months just to make room for two more.

    I have also seen prices drop after pins being on the market a few weeks.
    HS2 just sold for $1750 and it looked to be in great shape...but sat on the market at 2300 to start with.
    I too sold Hulk after posting it for $7k then dropped it to $6500.
    So yes there is a slight correction but the market is still strong.

    Stern did a wise thing in launching three good games and what looks to be another prior to jjp pumping out the rest of the first machine and well before the launch of the second. The market IMO has just about spent its pinned up demand for NIB games. Going to be real interesting price wise over the next year for all pins.

    #68 10 years ago
    Quoted from dmesserly:

    Well, I'm an outlier (which I doubt is actually the case) because I don't have anything newer than 1997 and my oldest is 1975. I've owned plenty of Sterns and would consider several to be among the best pins ever made (TSPP, SM, IM) but the rest are in the broad mass of pins I can take or leave at anytime. But I find many of the B/Ws from the 90s and many older SS games to be much more fun to play. Deep rules are great (and probably necessary for the really good players) but they often seem like to much work. I also think the design, art, sound, and general polish of many B/W are still far ahead of most Sterns.
    As for prices or pins, I have no idea and no one else does either. I think the trend is up but there will be ups and downs like any hobby.

    not much of an outlier... many of us don't have any pins newer than 1977... although against my better judgment, i do have a 1989 pin on the way...

    re: "new blood"... the problem with relying on new blood to keep prices rising (or even stable at current prices) is that once the cost of entry reaches a certain level, the new blood dries up in a hurry...

    #69 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Heh.
    Can anybody see what the six pins that I currently have here at home have in common?
    AFM
    Tron
    MB
    MET
    AC/DC
    MM
    Come on, I know you can do it!

    Quoted from shimoda:

    Fan layout, the one thing missing in my small collection. RFM?

    Tron isn't a fan layout.

    Quoted from RTR:

    None of them are in my collection? Nailed it!

    The correct answer, of course, is: Lyman F. Sheats Jr. did the software on all of them.

    http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/lyman-f-sheats-jr

    #70 10 years ago

    I think the last few pins that came out are brilliant. They are great games and they make a lot of noise to break the barrier outside the pin community. Metallica, AC/DC, Avengers, X-Men, Star Trek. These music icons, blockbusters movies and comic books franchises will only attract new blood to this awesome hobby. More people are coming in in the next few months for sure. With also another pin company growing and hoping it will come to the level of Stern. Only will bring more pins to the market.

    All time best pins in the community will always be more expensive cause after all we won't buy the latest flavor of the trimester and agree to take major lost on the best pieces of our collection. Also there is a limit per collector budget wise and available space. Great times

    #71 10 years ago

    With new pins selling at $8k-$10k, nope - definitely not turning.

    #72 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Tron isn't a fan layout.

    The correct answer, of course, is: Lyman F. Sheats Jr. did the software on all of them.
    http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/lyman-f-sheats-jr

    For the record, I wouldn't mind having a few of those in my line up!

    #73 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    The correct answer, of course, is: Lyman F. Sheats Jr. did the software on all of them.

    Hmmmm.....you are missing the best Lyman of them all, a tag team effort with Keith and Ritchie on the design

    #74 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Tron isn't a fan layout.

    The correct answer, of course, is: Lyman F. Sheats Jr. did the software on all of them.
    http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/lyman-f-sheats-jr

    Okay, but to me it plays like one.

    #75 10 years ago

    I don't know how much more new blood can come into this hobby. Sure there are anecdotal stories of people who never were in an arcade who become die hard pinball fans, but I think that is the minority. If you did not have pins around you on a regular basis in your formative years I just don't think it is going to happen for you. Many young people really enjoy playing pinball, who wouldn't, it is very fun. But enjoying it and committing a relatively large amount of space, time and money is a very different thing.

    With the huge pin craze I think most people who ever wanted to own a pin have now realized they are available and have made an effort to buy one or more.

    But how many of them are serious enough to learn to fix the maintenance nightmare that pinball games are for most people? They will get a working pin, some lights will burn out, a coil will have a wire break off, perhaps rubber will break. They will probably change the bulbs or put on new rubber, but learn to solder? What about a transistor burning up? How many will do board work (are they even comfortable removing a board to send to someone if they can correctly ID what is the problem board?)

    If they are lucky a tech is in their area (many areas seem to have no one local to help at any price). They will call the tech and have a repair bill that may get into a couple of hundred dollars(a bargain, don't get me wrong). The next time they will wait until the pin is unplayability broken with lots of problems to "save money" but by now the game has sucked to play for a long time and they are falling out of love with the idea of pinball. Do that repair call once or twice and the pin will not get played and it becomes a folding table for clothes that will eventually be sold. If they don't have the time or interest to learn to repair pins and they are not some of the lucky few that have a good local tech I just don't see them staying in the hobby very long.

    To me the market is very finite. Many of the people in this last huge boom of collectors who are getting into the market and will also get out of the market in a short time and finding buyer will get harder. How many duplicates of a title will the passionate collectors take?

    -1
    #76 10 years ago

    More people in the hobby, pins go up. Someday manufacturers quit, pin prices skyrocket.

    #77 10 years ago

    I'd like to buy a HUO $3500 ACDC Pro within 4 hours of STL

    Market sucks, better dump it now!

    #78 10 years ago
    Quoted from pinstor12:

    Someday manufacturers quit, pin prices skyrocket.

    Pin prices skyrocketed when Williams shut down the pinball business?

    #79 10 years ago

    Correction?
    th-3.jpegth-3.jpeg

    #80 10 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    Hmmmm.....you are missing the best Lyman of them all

    No, I'm not.

    #81 10 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    I'd like to buy a HUO $3500 ACDC Pro within 4 hours of STL
    Market sucks, better dump it now!

    I had a 3,600.00 dollar acdc pro an hour from st.louis but it's already sold and the price police bitched about its price.

    #82 10 years ago

    That reminds me of the FG on Ebay a few days ago for $2995 buy it now. Had blue powder coat armor on it.
    I was trying to line up pick up (it was pick up only) and it was taken off.
    I believe the price police got that one too.

    #83 10 years ago
    Quoted from Fast-Ed:

    I had a 3,600.00 dollar acdc pro an hour from st.louis but it's already sold and the price police bitched about its price.

    no, the "price cheerleaders" bitched about the price... that would be a completely different group of people than the "price police"...

    #84 10 years ago

    well I think there are a lot of new people in the hobby, which is now more like high priced art. Good in some cases but bad (for ops) in others. Very complicated but good for people wanting new stuff. When does Stern start buying out the competition and bring them into the fold? Jpop

    #85 10 years ago
    Quoted from jpop:

    well I think there are a lot of new people in the hobby, which is now more like high priced art. Good in some cases but bad (for ops) in others. Very complicated but good for people wanting new stuff. When does Stern start buying out the competition and bring them into the fold? Jpop

    I hope Stern doesn't buy-out any competition. That would be bad for the hobby.

    Stern is good at what they do and the way they do it. Gary certainly had to walk a tightrope for a few years before pinball started to rebound. JJP seems to be finding their way. Hopefully what you've doing with Zid / Pin Inventors will continue to mature. Love seeing what Skit B and other small groups of and individual enthusiasts are doing. Competition is good for the hobby.

    Lawrence

    #86 10 years ago
    Quoted from notaflyingtoy:

    I hope Stern doesn't buy-out any competition. That would be bad for the hobby.

    The bad would be that they would stifle some of the ideas and costs. The good is they would reign in the artist and impose budgets and deadlines while providing funds needed to get games out.
    The win would be more games out there with different ideas and on a manageable timeline.

    #87 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    No, I'm not.

    You really are! It just doesn't fit in with the "fan layout"/ranking system herd.......put it in there and see what happens

    #88 10 years ago
    Quoted from jpop:

    When does Stern start buying out the competition and bring them into the fold?

    Stern would have to have some actual competition to buy out.

    One game every 3 years does not make for much competition.....

    #89 10 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Stern would have to have some actual competition to buy out.
    One game every 3 years does not make for much competition.....

    Agreed!

    #90 10 years ago

    Just like every collectible, prices fluctuate. The thing about collecting is, rarity. The reason some of the games like MM and AFM are so desirable is because of the limited amount available. These games were routed, beat to death, then torn apart, burned, smashed, etc. knocking the numbers down.
    New Sterns and JJP's aren't being routed as much, they are being kept in pristine condition in someone's home. If they made 2200 Trons, there are still 2198 Trons left, minus two that got destroyed in some disaster. And all of them are nice. Nobody is playing it down to the wood these days. I've watched three EBD's torn apart to make 1 good game because back then parts weren't as readily available like they are now. I remember vast amounts of games sitting in wet warehouses just rotting. That's not happening as much these days.
    Just like Star Wars toys, the NIB from 77 is so hard to find it's worth big bucks. By the 80's and 90's people were specifically buying toys to keep in the box. That's why they aren't worth anywhere near the prices of the 77's.
    Supply and demand my friends.

    #91 10 years ago

    I just bought a Tron pro in excellent shape yesterday for $3750, market is f'd!

    -1
    #92 10 years ago

    @pinballshawn... there is a LOT more to the economics of a market than simply "supply and demand"... espcially a "small" collectibles market...

    #93 10 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Tron isn't a fan layout.

    The correct answer, of course, is: Lyman F. Sheats Jr. did the software on all of them.
    http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/lyman-f-sheats-jr

    Amazing really.

    I did not know the games I liked were coded by him - that was a year or two back. He really is a genius.

    #94 10 years ago

    You can't "buy out" what isn't for sale........Stern will have enough issues in competition with others and vice versa...

    #95 10 years ago
    Quoted from Fast-Ed:

    I had a 3,600.00 dollar acdc pro an hour from st.louis but it's already sold and the price police bitched about its price.

    Man oh man weird story full of very odd coincidences but I managed to play your game last week lol

    Wish I would have bought it

    My wife is a pregnant emotional mess right now so unless I want to end up like Phill Hartman I better let the baby & the deck/patio happen first.

    Hopefully by then ACDC Pro is a $3250 game bahahahaha!

    #96 10 years ago
    Quoted from jayhawkai:

    Pin prices skyrocketed when Williams shut down the pinball business?

    Didn't say that.

    See the "more people" part you left out. Get the whole thought.

    "skyrocket" may have been a little strong, on my end.

    Just if's. If more people are/want in, and if manufacturers would quit.

    #97 10 years ago

    ^^^

    of course, if more people are coming in, it's unlikely manufacturers will quit... possible, but unlikely... stranger things have happened, but if the market is growing, it wouldn't make sense to leave it... especially since the only business line that the current manufacturers are in is pinball... it's not like gary has another line of "stuff" to sell...

    #98 10 years ago
    Quoted from pinnyheadhead:

    I collected other hobby items before and this is what I see.
    I see longer times to sell, price reductions and people pulling pins off the market if they do not get their top price to sell. I see people testing new price points and not getting them. I see used pin prices start to bump into NIB Stern Pro machines. I see people trying to squeze out every last dime they can get on a sale of a used pin to put the dime towards a NIB purchase they may or may not be able to afford. I see people trying to sell, with little success, a 6 month old Stern with a couple of mods for 95% of what a new in box, delivered to your door costs.
    I see more gimmicks to sell games like HUO, which may or usually not be able to be verified or Collector Quality (CQ) games that people ask prices that you can buy new LE's for. What happens if you play a CQ game anyway? Does a little flaking on the playfield and a cracked plastic or two make it a nice game, but not CQ anymore? No?
    People gamerooms are getting full. How many games could people fit in their spaces tomorrow? Would that space
    be saved for the next great NIB pin?
    People love all their pins if they go up in value, but if prices drop would they love their titles that get little play? The economy is not that great. Would people need to sell to get some of their pin money out any time soon?
    I see a leveling with the price resistance to next level of asking prices on the used pins. With these stable prices you get longer sale times, but if you price a pin 10%-20% lower it sells quick and people freak out.

    Oh yeah, also we need newer players to come in and start buying. As the pin prices go up, there will be less people willing to gamble buying their first pin. Gamble meaning take a chance to see if they would like a pinball in their home to play. At $1400 buying a T2 can make sense, but not at $2400.
    Also it is hard to buy a first pin if you are a new collector. We have flippers in my area that want $2700 for Xenon, $3500 for JP, $2350 for BK2000. The machines may be nice, but a new buyer wil be hesitant to drop that kind of cash after they try them out. They will walk and say "meh" to pinball.
    Right now it seems like all we do as collectors is sell a pinball to another person and make a buck then put the original investment plus the dollar we made into another pin. The person who bought the pin after a while sells that pin for a dollar more than he paid to someone else, then reinvests the money plus the dollar into yet another pin. This goes on for only so long. We just drive up the price on ourselves. Problem is someone will have to sell for a loss during the end of chain. Happens in every hobby.

    #99 10 years ago

    @pinny...

    yup... when cost of entry becomes prohibitive, it becomes a real issue...

    and yup, it seems like most machines are merely getting sold from existing collector to existing collector...

    #100 10 years ago

    I just finished booking a mini-van for next weekend so I can drive 5 hours each way to get a pin.
    Let me know your thoughts once I get back.
    : P

    There are 198 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.

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