Paramus, NJ
Noob here. I've been playing pinball on location all my life. I'm finally at a point where I can afford these things and THIS is the market when I enter into the hobby. How do you think I feel? 
(Topic ID: 307958)
Pinball machines are expensive and have gone up considerably, in price, in recent years. At the same time, so has resale value. You are taking less of a hit after you sell it.
That’s how I look at it..
Quoted from Emkay79:Noob here. I've been playing pinball on location all my life. I'm finally at a point where I can afford these things and THIS is the market when I enter into the hobby. How do you think I feel?
Thank you for joining our little party and some of us welcome you with open arms. You may not know this, but Pinside could be a rough place.... Take nothing personally!
Quoted from Jeffswack:Elitist old man yells at cloud
Screenshot_20220113-111715-926 (resized).pngBingo
Quoted from The_Pump_House:Pinball is still boutique.
Enough new people get in to the hobby and economies of scale can kick in for the manufacturers increasing profits and reducing upward price pressure.
Enough new people get in to the hobby and demand can drive increased competition, downward price pressure and increased production capacity.
Enough new people get in to the hobby and production and supply of replacement components can increase reducing the cost of parts and increase their accessibility.
Enough new people get in to the hobby and the more incentivized skilled individuals will be to service and maintain pins as a profession.
And if Enough new people get in to the hobby and none of the above happens I can sell my collection in 15 years or so for
[quoted image]
Quoted from electricsquirrel:Maybe you need a different hobby.
Seems like at least half this hobby - at least people here - are completely miserable at any given moment. Makes you wonder why they just don't find something else to do that produces less sorrow and more joy.
Quoted from Emkay79:Noob here. I've been playing pinball on location all my life. I'm finally at a point where I can afford these things and THIS is the market when I enter into the hobby. How do you think I feel?
From a pricing perspective, yeah... I feel for new collectors. If you're not flush with cash, these games have become beyond ridiculously expensive.
This is such a weird time because pinball is on the rise, manufacturing-wise, which is great. But vibe of the collecting community has changed so much over the last few years. It's become a race to the bottom, chasing anything new and shiny. Just look at the last two years. People are throwing down money on games they've never seen. Totally uninteresting.
Quoted from MikeS:I have 10 pins at home and picked up a Godzilla Pro 2.5 weeks ago and already have 250 plays on it myself. There's probably another 150 games put on by friends and family. If someone buys a pin and plays it only 25 times they aren't really a pinball player and bought it for other reasons.
This is the definition of anecdotal evidence.
Quoted from Emkay79:Noob here. I've been playing pinball on location all my life. I'm finally at a point where I can afford these things and THIS is the market when I enter into the hobby. How do you think I feel?
Lots of deals can still be found. Make friends with the local pinball players. Play in some tournaments or leagues if any are available near you. You don't need the latest game to have fun playing.
Quoted from insight75:Thank you for joining our little party and some of us welcome you with open arms. You may not know this, but Pinside could be a rough place.... Take nothing personally!
Thank you for the welcome! So many of you are local to me! (NJ, need to update my profile) No worries, I've got thick skin and I've been enjoying the ride so far.
Overall I get the OG posts point.
I also agree with all the replies that noobs are good for the game growth parts etc.
I think the problem here lies in the gap.
The increase in demand has created a supply and price issue. For long time fans now having to compete to get in on LEs it’s frustrating.
But all during this period of influx
Which will be followed by a period of outflux with many dropping out and games become more widely available for sale again.
Certainly the pandemic has added fuel to the fire. But will also burn off quicker once/if?lol pandemic ends.
Overall it’s all positive. And a matter of when you have cash and which side of curve you’re on when buying lol.
Great thread btw. Fun.
I just really don't like all the noob softies that throw a temper tantrum if you don't cheerlead every single game thats ever been made, or point out bad business practices, or just want to ask dumb questions without taking the time to learn some of the basics themselves.
Quoted from Chisox:I’m also a long time vinyl guy which has, as everyone knows, had a crazy resurgence over the last few years. Same deal. Hobbyists are pissed about not being able to find anything anymore and the prices have gone through the roof for used records and turntables. The plus side is that pretty much every new release is coming out on vinyl which, although expensive, is very good news for guys with turntables.
eBay and the internet killed record collecting. I was recently in Istanbul looking for some rare turk psych music. Maybe saved 10% off of the discogs price on most things. Not many bargains anymore because everyone knows what people are willing to pay.
Quoted from screaminr:Oi , leave the koalas out of it , they're having a hard enough time as it is
Russell Crowe Koala.jpgQuoted from Palmer:Yeah who would of thought you would get negative reaction from a thread titled "So I'm gonna say it...new people getting into the hobby is BAD!"
Oh yeah, I purposely chose it to grab attention. And it worked in spades. Believe me, I'm neither sad nor hurt by the negative reactions or funny memes. Keep 'em coming! I posted the painfully detailed clarification, because so many people were running wild with responses that didn't actually match what I meant or intended.
Quoted from Apollo18:Great thread btw. Fun.
I agree, it's been fun reading! And yeah, I knew I would get some hate posting what I did, but I thought it might provoke some interesting discussion too. And so far it has.
Agree with the OP (read the first post and nothing else in this thread. TL:DR). I preferred having an obscure hobby and just enjoy playing the pins. Don't care if anyone new ever discovers pinball.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Oh yeah, I purposely chose it to grab attention. And it worked in spades. Believe me, I'm neither sad nor hurt by the negative reactions or funny memes. Keep 'em coming! I posted the painfully detailed clarification, because so many people were running wild with responses that didn't actually match what I meant or intended.
I agree, it's been fun reading! And yeah, I knew I would get some hate posting what I did, but I thought it might provoke some interesting discussion too. And so far it has.
You're getting "hate" because you posted new people coming into the hobby is bad, while being new yourself, then "clarified"/backpeddled once you started getting hate that "I'm happy that the hobby is growing, and I hope it continues to grow."
You stated one thing, then your clarification was a complete 180. Which is fine to change your thinking in light of better information, but the best way to get your point across is just to say it and not use some click bait topic thread that you have to "clarify" over 100+ posts 
.
Quoted from robotron911:It's not the noobs, its the ever-increasing "pinball lovers" that really are nothing more than speculators who buy games only to resell them at profit. Seriously, you can't even get in line for an LE for games that aren't even made yet if you haven't greased the skids. Why? Not because the games are so desirable, but because they are limited and the easiest to profit off of. Literally look at all of the NIB recent releases - Turtles, Godzilla, Rush - that are littering the For Sale forum. These are folks that bought them only to immediately resell them. Profiteering at it's finest. And it only works if people will buy it, which clearly many of you will.
And some even buy 2, 3 (or more?) LEs
Quoted from PoMC:Agree with the OP (read the first post and nothing else in this thread. TL:DR). I preferred having an obscure hobby and just enjoy playing the pins. Don't care if anyone new ever discovers pinball.
It is still obscure and you can still play your pins.
Quoted from Rarehero:Where did you read this? It’s absolutely false.
Jack’s business was selling games to home collectors. Stern tried to increase sales to operators & get more location players by making games simpler to service & understand, with short ball times & less deep rules. Iron Man, Tron, Big Buck, Avatar & Rolling Stones came from this era. Jack’s customers didn’t buy these games - they wanted full featured & deep games. So, he decided to start JJP to make a product that his customers wanted, but didn’t exist.
The end result is the same. Whether the pinballs were crap or scarce.
https://pastimepinball.com/americas-iconic-pinball-manufacturers-past-and-present
There's always "gatekeepers" that try and decide who "deserves" to be considered a real fan and who doesn't. It's silly.
The market for all collectibles right now is bonkers. That's capitalism, love it or hate it. I hope prices come down too but I think there's only two things that will cause that: 1. A recession or 2. Increase in supply (likely due to people selling due to a recession, not that pinball manufacturers will suddenly start making more). Things are cyclical and eventually things will change. I just ordered my first NIB, awful timing indeed.
I'm new to the buying aspect of the hobby, and not hanging out in bars over the last 2 years has afforded me the opportunity to buy a NIB CCr (whenever it becomes available). I'd be stoked to have bought a couple of older titles for that $$$, but I'll just have to space my purchases out a bit. I get it though, change is hard.
Nothing is all or none.
New people Good
Flippers Bad
When people explore and engage in new hobbies its a plus.
Their motivation is the difference if its to try and enjoy great.
But when they come in to make it a money venture with no
interest in the hobby it spoils the hobby for the rest.
I love having all these new people in the hobby. My collection practically tripled in value over a year!!! I am so grateful!
In all seriousness though, the amount of "on location" pinball here is staggering. I'll drive 30 minutes to Pinball Garage and play a Godzilla before I drop $7K on a PRO. In the long run, I save a LOT of money, and I get to be more social and meet others on location vs sitting at home and playing alone. Way more fun to interact with others.
Quoted from grantopia:You're getting "hate" because you posted new people coming into the hobby is bad, while being new yourself, then "clarified"/backpeddled once you started getting hate that "I'm happy that the hobby is growing, and I hope it continues to grow."
You stated one thing, then your clarification was a complete 180. Which is fine to change your thinking in light of better information, but the best way to get your point across is just to say it and not use some click bait topic thread that you have to "clarify" over 100+ posts .
Wrong. LOL
Quoted from Jamesays:Nothing is all or none.
New people Good
Flippers Bad
When people explore and engage in new hobbies its a plus.
Their motivation is the difference if its to try and enjoy great.
But when they come in to make it a money venture with no
interest in the hobby it spoils the hobby for the rest.
Yeah, market speculation is a real contributor to price increases. And the only way to combat flipping is for the supply to increase, which isn't/can't happen right now. Thanks to among other things, the global supply/shipping problems. Computer GPUs are going through exactly the same thing as pins, except even worse. If there's a buck to be made, people will find a way. Scarcity of supply equals scalping opportunities. And I don't necessarily even have a problem with people flipping games for profit. It's a free country, but it isn't really a healthy thing.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Wrong. LOL
Ok. LOL. Whatever you gotta tell yourself.
Maybe "I wish there were more pinball machines available" would have been a better thread title, for example.
Several people have talked about how bad it would be to go back to the early 2000s. I wasn't around then so I don't know and I am honestly curious. What was so bad about it? I'm sure it was harder to get some parts, but on the whole it seems like it was much better:
Cheap machines
No people obsessed with each new theme that might come out
A much smaller and less vocal group of people obsessed with pristine condition, huo, low plays, toppers, etc
Far fewer toys stuck all over machines
No clown puke leds
No "boutique" companies making $10,000 machines with lots of pretty lights and powder coating
New, fun machines were still being made
Just people playing pinball who like playing pinball
What was the terrible downside?
Quoted from porkcarrot:Several people have talked about how bad it would be to go back to the early 2000s. I wasn't around then so I don't know and I am honestly curious. What was so bad about it? I'm sure it was harder to get some parts, but on the whole it seems like it was much better:
Cheap machines
No people obsessed with each new theme that might come out
A much smaller and less vocal group of people obsessed with pristine condition, huo, low plays, toppers, etc
Far fewer toys stuck all over machines
No clown puke leds
No "boutique" companies making $10,000 machines with lots of pretty lights and powder coating
New, fun machines were still being made
Just people playing pinball who like playing pinball
What was the terrible downside?
And then someone posted a thread lets take pinball mainstream.Look what happened.
Early 2000s was:
- No WMS, no Capcom, no Gottleib. Just Stern, and they stunk. No real homebrew either, aside from things like CBaFGPD
- Why did Stern stink? Harley, SX, Golden Cue, Austin Powers, etc. We did get a bit of hope with Monopoly, for what that was worth.
- Prices on the good WMS games shooting upwards because of Stern's crap offerings
- People hoarding game-specific parts worse than they hoard LEs today
- Very few leagues, very small competitive scene
Early 2000s kinda sucked compared to today.
Mississauga, ON
Quoted from porkcarrot:Several people have talked about how bad it would be to go back to the early 2000s. I wasn't around then so I don't know and I am honestly curious. What was so bad about it? I'm sure it was harder to get some parts, but on the whole it seems like it was much better:
Cheap machines
No people obsessed with each new theme that might come out
A much smaller and less vocal group of people obsessed with pristine condition, huo, low plays, toppers, etc
Far fewer toys stuck all over machines
No clown puke leds
No "boutique" companies making $10,000 machines with lots of pretty lights and powder coating
New, fun machines were still being made
Just people playing pinball who like playing pinball
What was the terrible downside?
I can't speak to pins specifically but ease of access is general the downside. I've been playing rhythm games for 20 years and there was a time where you couldn't go to any mall or theater without finding a DDR machine. Then there was the period from 2008 or so to 2016 where you almost couldn't find a machine. If you owned your own machine good luck finding parts or help with it unless you were tied into the very small, niche community that still stuck to it.
Now that it's had a comeback you will find the newest DDR version in every Dave & Busters and there are several sites dedicated to selling parts for these machines that simply wouldn't have existed back then when the community was so small.
There are also homebrew versions that are as good as the official versions. The options for someone getting into it now are huge compared to 2012.
The downside is that the cost of owning your own machine is up considerably, but you have way more options to go play them outside of your home.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Oh yeah, I purposely chose it to grab attention. And it worked in spades.
The _real_ problem is that narcissism has gotten too popular.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Seems like at least half this hobby - at least people here - are completely miserable at any given moment.
And we are always here to listen!
CF2CABD2-87FE-4332-B7A8-16E7FBC3D259.gifQuoted from DakotaMike:This might not be a popular opinion to state out loud, but I wish new people would stop getting into the pinball hobby. New blood is great for pinball locations, great for tournaments and leagues, and great for pinball shows, but it's awful for us home collectors.
You didn't have to write so much, could have just said: Fuck you, I got mine.
or for the youth in the audience: FYIGM
I bought my first machine last June. I now own 6. Sorry for enjoying this hobby I couldn’t afford 10 years ago.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Seems like at least half this hobby - at least people here - are completely miserable at any given moment. Makes you wonder why they just don't find something else to do that produces less sorrow and more joy.
For someone named “crazy” Levi, you’re one of the most consistently sane people here 
Quoted from KingVidiot:For someone named “crazy” Levi, you’re one of the most consistently sane people here
You clearly need to read more of his posts! 
Quoted from metallik:Early 2000s was:
- No WMS, no Capcom, no Gottleib. Just Stern, and they stunk. No real homebrew either, aside from things like CBaFGPD
- Why did Stern stink? Harley, SX, Golden Cue, Austin Powers, etc. We did get a bit of hope with Monopoly, for what that was worth.
- Prices on the good WMS games shooting upwards because of Stern's crap offerings
- People hoarding game-specific parts worse than they hoard LEs today
- Very few leagues, very small competitive scene
Early 2000s kinda sucked compared to today.
There are no WMS, Capcom, Gottleib now. All the games that exist now existed then.
Stern had some stinkers in 99-01, but by 02 and definitely 03 they were making great games.
Prices could not have been worse than now or even close.
Game specific parts I assume were an issue.
Very few leagues sounds like no problem to me.
None of this is compelling.
Quoted from porkcarrot:There are no WMS, Capcom, Gottleib now. All the games that exist now existed then.
Stern had some stinkers in 99-01, but by 02 and definitely 03 they were making great games.
Prices could not have been worse than now or even close.
Game specific parts I assume were an issue.
Very few leagues sounds like no problem to me.
None of this is compelling.
Yep, you've convinced me...let's all agree to go back to 2003.
Quoted from mbeardsley:Yep, you've convinced me...let's all agree to go back to 2003.
I'm just saying, as far as pinball is concerned it doesn't sound so bad.
I'm fixing up a Sinbad right now with a roached playfield because I can sell it cheap to maybe get someone new in the hobby. Methinks part of the problem might be is folks want to start with high end games. I started buying cheap and then might sell 2 games to buy a nicer game and then sell....etc...etc
I was shocked at how many games I've gone through when I added T2 to my profile last week.
With a little elbow grease and a lot of "keeping eyes open" I've garnered a nice little collection in 7 years. Slow and steady can still get, and keep, you in the hobby. And I truly believe the hobby isn't as bitter as online forums like Pinside make it seem, just like any media the whiners get more airplay. We all love to read a trainwreck.....
Quoted from NEW-B:The best time to get into pinball was always 10 years before you got into pinball.
No, because then they would have been part of the separation agreement.....who wants to buy them twice?? 
Quoted from grantopia:You're getting "hate" because you posted new people coming into the hobby is bad, while being new yourself, then "clarified"/backpeddled once you started getting hate that "I'm happy that the hobby is growing, and I hope it continues to grow."
You stated one thing, then your clarification was a complete 180. Which is fine to change your thinking in light of better information, but the best way to get your point across is just to say it and not use some click bait topic thread that you have to "clarify" over 100+ posts .
Nailed it
Quoted from guard:I'm fixing up a Sinbad right now with a roached playfield because I can sell it cheap to maybe get someone new in the hobby. Methinks part of the problem might be is folks want to start with high end games. I started buying cheap and then might sell 2 games to buy a nicer game and then sell....etc...etc
I was shocked at how many games I've gone through when I added T2 to my profile last week.
With a little elbow grease and a lot of "keeping eyes open" I've garnered a nice little collection in 7 years. Slow and steady can still get, and keep, you in the hobby. And I truly believe the hobby isn't as bitter as online forums like Pinside make it seem, just like any media the whiners get more airplay. We all love to read a trainwreck.....
Yeah, I started small and worked my way up to affording the expensive stuff. Got my first pin by trading my dad's Slugfest for a Black Knight. Then bought a roached Mousin' Around with money I saved up while owning BK. Sold Mousin and Black Knight to fund a Johnny Mnemonic. Used the spare cash from that deal to buy a project Phantom of the Opera. Fixed that up, and sold it for a tidy sum. By that point, I was in deep enough I could sell or trade my way into some nice/expensive pins. And then the story goes on from there.
But those cheap/project games are scarce these days. I'd have had a much harder time getting into pinball ownership if I started this year, instead of in 2019.
Quoted from porkcarrot:There are no WMS, Capcom, Gottleib now.
Yep, instead we have Spooky, JJP, American and some smaller companies. Way better than *one* company.
Quoted from porkcarrot:Stern had some stinkers in 99-01, but by 02 and definitely 03 they were making great games
A few.. the two Keefer games, maybe T3. Lawlor's stuff paled compared to his WMS efforts.
Quoted from porkcarrot:Prices could not have been worse than now or even close
They were going up then as fast as they are now, especially on desirable titles.
Quoted from porkcarrot:Game specific parts I assume were an issue
Very much so.
Quoted from porkcarrot:Very few leagues sounds like no problem to me.
What kind of hell are you from anyway? "It's more fun to compete!" Really, you're striking me as a collector/looker rather than a player.
Reply
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!
Donate to PinsideGreat to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
