Oh sh!t. I hope there is a logical explanation for this.. I got WOZECLE and THLE on order, and this seems shifty. Grats on the WOZ though!

Got to say that's a pretty crappy way to treat the people who have pre-paid. How does the machine actually play now that you've got your hands on one? There seems to be quite a lack of unbiased reviews as they either fall into the "it's the 2nd coming" camp or "it's dreadful". Not trying to troll but genuinely interested in what the machine is actually like (as it's the one thing hardly ever mentioned!)

And I was the first on to play it last night!!! Thanks Mark

What a light show, but what the hell am i shooting for? The lights seem to change just to change.
I do really like the toto out lane and how you always get a chance to get you ball back in action. I think eventually it will be a very dope fun packed game, but its going to take more then a few updates to get it there. At least that's what I took away from it after about 8 or 9 games.

Oh hell, let the shit storm commence. There's some serious 'splainin to do. I call shenannigans on Jack for this. He told me mine would ship last August, then by last Christmas at the latest, now some new guy jumps in line and gets 5 right off? While the rest of us are still in limbo?! WTF!!!

I guess Jack was telling the truth when he said they had not made a shipment of 10 machines to a single distributor as you originally claimed. He also said that they were building standards along with the LE's.

I think the majority of people have been waiting for an LE, not a Standard, many of whom paid $6500, such as myself. I would prefer to wait for the LE. Though I'm looking forward to getting it, when I receive it does not really impact my life.

Edit/Update: This according to Jack:

"Day 1 distributor who ordered 15 games. In the queue for 5 games, asked for 5 WOZ and we shipped them."

I'm so irritated right now. Tempted to buy one of these and sell off my LE. If he had an LE in stock I'd be there tommorrow. This is my first NIB and so far the journey has not been rewarding.

Yeah, I understand how aggravating this can be for those who have been waiting. Still, Jack has a company to run. Would you turn away a $70,000 order or try to somehow fit it in with the existing orders?

WOW!
That really cant bode well for the people that paid long ago and are still waiting.

Its simply a business decision how JJP chooses to fill orders. Anyone that chooses to order direct you should see clearly who takes priority and its not the collector / single pin orders.

Pretty crappy if true and it appears so.

If I had prepaid & outstanding orders waiting for years then yes, I would.
Its a matter of principal ( for me anyway).

Damn right I would if I ever expected to sell another game to the people who helped him start up in the first place.

A good thing with pre-orders is that they have something to work for. I mean if noone pre-ordered why bothering making the game?

Anyway, sad that preorders will suffer like this.

Ideally, sure, but it might be tough if you have payroll to meet and a factory to run. The existing orders are not generating any income. The delays also mean expenses are much higher than originally anticipated, yet the initial income from the pre-sales remains the same.

I would cut JJP some slack. But as I said previously, my life isn't really impacted so it's easy for me to say.

His future pre-order sales are what's really going to suffer with sales practices like this. Kinda biting his own ass. I know I'll never pre order from him again. Seriously, why tie up your money for years when you can just go down the street and buy one with no shipping?

I can see why JJP has to do this, but I can also see how this is crap. Pretty bad deal all the way around.....

I was on the fence on ordering one before the price increase. Now it's a no brainer. HELL NO.

I can understand why people are unhappy if this is true but if people want a 2nd or 3rd pin from JJP we are going to have to let things like this slide. $70k buys a lot of parts. Or we could all keep stirring, watch JJP fold, put off anyone from starting up a pinball company again and enjoy Stern returning to classics like TRS again

Was it easy for all the buyers to fulfill their end of the obligation to come up with the money they paid ? Are they suppose to patiently wait for years only to have someone else to get the same item ahead of them ? Pretty crappy unless something else is missing from view.

Its the many little guy orders that helped to get his business off the ground. The collector market was a large target audience but you can see who gets the actual games.

If it was the other way around where distributors floated their money for years and some individuals got games ahead of them you would see lawyers involved and cancelled orders.
A distributor would not put up with the situation and I fail to see why individuals should either.

For people who say its just business remember that if jjp goes out of business because they can't drum up enough sales. Preorders seem to be their biggest cash influx and who in their right mind would plop down money early when it clearly doesn't guarantee your spot in line.

Most Hobbit orders only have about $1500 put down at this point. If people cancel there LE orders, there are others on the waiting list to fill those spots. If the person was a $6500 pre-order JJP will actually make money on the cancellation. If people sell their spot there is no net difference to JJP.

I think the reality is that if JJP turns away all new business until every LE is built, it could be a 4 month delay without any income. But, if they mix Standards in with the LE's (as Jack said he would from the beginning), all the LE's being shipped might be delayed by what, a few weeks maybe? After two and a half years, does an additional few weeks matter much?

If JJP actually builds 200 games in August as planned (20 Standards and 180LEs) the Standards would only add a 2 day delay per month, yet the loss of that business would be $560,000 over that 4 month period.

But it is not the same item. An LE is not the same as a Standard.

Again, early on, Jack said he would be building Standards with the LEs so it shouldn't come as a surprise now.

Regarding delays, I'm actually surprised they've come this far in only 2 and a half years. In general, I don't think people who haven't been involved with the design and production of a product realize how much time it takes to just put out a quality product, let alone one with innovation.

For example, for the last 15 years I've been designing electronic integrated circuits. It typically takes 1.5 to 2 years to get a single part from concept to market. That's with an entire factory already in place and in my opinion is far smaller in scale to WOZ.

Maybe it's time for a little reality check. Does anyone else who has been involved in the design and production of a product think it's taken JJP too long to build a factory and produce WOZ?

Refreshing to hear a voice of reason for a change

In the case of WOZ, plopping down early guaranteed me an LE for $6500. I wasn't so concerned with my spot in line at that point, just hoping to get a good game period. My spot in the LE line did not change either. Personally, even at $7500, I think the LE is a good value compared to the Standard at $7000.

Fully agree. The standard is still awesome but like you said for $500 more you do get a lot of extras that for the price difference makes it a good value.

Early pre-orders at $6500 have done well, will do well, but people who paid $7500 and still waiting, not so.

All businesses need cash flow. Pre-orders helped create JJP but it was a risk from day 1, everyone knew that.

I'm not referring to woz. Getting in at 6,500 was worth it I'm sure. I'm talking about the amount of future preorders they're costing themselves because of how they're handling woz.

markmon we must have missed each other. Sorry would have been nice to see you.
All I saw was LE on the line.

The-Family.jpg

Yes I know who's machine this is I am standing by...I won't share as the person might not want me to.

So apparently this distro ordered on Day 1 also. Mountain out of a molehill once again

"A couple weeks ago, he ordered 10".

That's a few years after 'day 1'.

If they have to sell some standards during this time to be successful long term I think that's well worth it for everyone in this hobby. What JJP is doing is not easy by any stretch and its very impressive they have come so far. Just think about starting a new pinball company during a time when many people thought it was not possible. Then think about setting out with the goal to make the best pinball machine ever, make it on a wide body platform which was last done 20 years ago, say you are going to make it a loaded game with new tech and then deliver on that with your very first machine. In the words of Darth Vader...lol.

Man, some of you WoZ guys are tolerant as hell... good for you though! I certainly am glad I stayed away from this WoZ debacle? (No too strong...) WoZ mess? (Yeah, that's better.)

How many here wish they would have kept their money in their pocket and stayed away and just waited to get their WoZ when they become available? I'm sure most won't admit that. I mean plenty here complain about Stern yet tolerate this? And don't kid yourself, your not saving any money. A $6500 WoZ over two years ago is the same as buying a $7500 WoZ today. And for many it will be a big disappointment. The hype will be hard (impossible?) to live up to at this point.

It looks like it will be going into 2014 for some of you... hope you guys love it!

Some will love it for sure. Some will force themselves to love it and the others will admit the whole thing was a mistake and move on without WoZ.

Which one will you be?

I would feel the same way. Anyone trying to rationalize the situation is being foolish and putting their head in the sand. At a minimum, JJP should open up it's build plans to the folks who have already paid for one. If they are building a 50/50 mix of LE's and Standards, just tell people. 6 million bucks in pre-orders deserves a more direct, professional response.

It's been clear for awhile now that WOZ standards are fairly easy to get (while LE customers continue to wait). I got a refund back in April, when JJP missed another "promise" that I'd have my machine in the first quarter of 2013. The decision to ship with incomplete software was also a broken promise. Lastly, Jack's insistence that "...we (JJP) want WOZ to be the worst game we ever build..." encouraged me to take his advice and wait for the next game. My WOZ journey wasn't the reward...it was just aggravating.

Good luck to those who continue to wait...you have more patience than I do (by far)!

I will love it. Will you let me? That is the real question.

The real question is: how long before the close did I get in?

Damn that sucks for the pre-order guys. I can certainly see both sides of this.

I'm kinda picturing how the assembly line is ran...

Assemble base machine..burn...test...etc.

"We got an order for 5 standards...take those 5 machines that were scheduled to be an LE... just throw the standard rails on them and change the apron"

On a side note..I think I read 200ish LE were shipped. Did anyone notice the #256 number on the standard? I realize people can pick their own number..but not sure a distributor would really care if they are just ordering stock. I wonder if they are running consecutive numbers

You better powder that thing quick, markmon.

Gotta love pinball

GAH! This is a TRIP. It almost seems like we are Wayne's victims, those of us who still wait for an ECLE. Really starting to feel like impending doom. Could be the IRS though

If I had room I would get a refund and go get one from a distributor. Or buy HUO. Must sell three pins right away...buy my pins!

Personally, I think threads like this one are despicable to the entire industry, because you're taking one person/company's word and using it to slam another person/company's word, on the sole assumption that person 1 is honest and person 2 is lying... when you have no basis to make a judgement call on either. That's where evidence and facts come in.

According to Jack's post an hour or so ago in the WOZ group:

"Markmon started another thread about how he got woz from a distributor.day 1 distributor who ordered 15 games. In the queue for 5 games, asked for 5 WOZ and we shipped them."

So which is it? Did Mt. Hood walk in off the street never having spoken to JJP before and order 10 standard games a couple weeks ago and already get 5 now, 5 later on, thus prompting knee-jerk-types to go ape sh*t as evidenced by this thread...

Or was Mt. Hood a day 1 customer with 15 ECLE games on order for two and a half years, and a couple weeks ago decided to add 10 standards to their order... but instead of waiting to get those standards much later, opted to swap build positions with 10 of their LE games and then used this "new" order to brag to you about how important they were?

So which is it? Which version can you actually prove to the level that would satisfy a judge? Remember, your post has already had a monetary impact on JJP based on those posting in this thread, and is thus libellous if untrue or even unprovable. Merely saying someone told you something does not absolve you of responsibility for the truthfulness of the statement.

Should people be crucifying Jack... or apologizing?

Hopefully JJP takes a lesson from Stern and starts making their future LE's with different artwork or at least something really unique... Standards can be made into LE's too easily.

I will admit I wish there was a bit more to separate the two, but I'm not that fond of the different artwork idea... because there's no guarantee that the LE version will actually be better or more desirable than the standad/pro (unless they purposefully gimp one). Just look at some of Stern's issues with multiple LE versions, or where the Premium is less favored than the Pro.

He ordered extra on top of his original order.

I don't get why distributors are shitting on Jack releasing twisted stories like this? They should be promoting the company. They are making money from selling his pins

Oh boy. Letters will be flying.

You mean and then represented to be LE and sold as LE? Wonder if there is some way to verify with JJP. Like call and ask about a specific #. Or will it not matter in the end, with LEs and Standards ending up priced exactly the same?

A big disappointment? Far from it. Nearly every review and impression for the game is great and it's build quality is better then anything we have seen for a pin. What's surprising is the high number of positive reviews the game code isn't even close to being complete. 26" LCD, 5 magnets, 5 flippers, two mini playfields, wide body, stereo sound, crystal ball with LCD, cleared screen printed cabinet, oh and Keith doing the code... damn! The wait will be well worth it for myself and other buyers.