Just for the record, RGP is still on Google Groups:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.games.pinball

I went to a newsreader when Google changed the format, but as far as I know you can still post through there also.

And reading is fundamental.

Now that Pinside is a business, are the volunteers still volunteers or are they considered employees.........time to get paid?

Is there a fee for parts/mods now? I saw Robin's initial post about fees for games based on broad price tiers (and I have to say that $15 for selling a Road Show struck me as fair enough), but I haven't seen anything other than speculation re: fees for anything else. Has anyone tried to sell a part and been assessed a fee?

Assuming there is a parts/mods fee, it seems like the fee structure and mechanism for collecting tiny fees will be crucial in determining whether it kills the Pinside market. I can't imagine they're excited about trying to collect $0.20 on a $50 sale (wouldn't the Paypal fees eat that up anyway?) so it wouldn't surprise me if the fees are just for game sales and not for parts and mods.

Yeah... can i get paid to give tech help in the Tech forum? Or if I answer enough questions, wave my fees =D

The little note at the bottom about price tiers only appears for machines, not parts and mods. Just the $2 insertion fee for non-donors it looks like.

I hadn't thought of it like that, I was referring to the "official" volunteers. I hope they get a little somethin somethin thrown there way!

I don't begrudge Robin making a profit from administering this site, which I can believe is a full-time job and which in any event he's pumped plenty of time and money into over the years.

Plenty of sites are a full-time money-making business for the owner/admin, but still staffed by volunteer mods. The example that leaps to my mind is homebrewtalk.com, the major beer brewing site. hombrewtalk.com charges vendors to advertise but doesn't have a buy/sell/trade fee for regular members doing one-off transactions. They do offer a $25 annual membership that removes ads from the site, allows you to have an avatar and extra PM storage space, and gives you the chance to enter regular prize drawings.

I happily pay at homebrewtalk.com to avoid all of the ads, and would do the same here if Pinside went that route (would probably be about the same as the small annual donation I happily make now, with full knowledge that's going to pay Robin for the time and effort spent designing and maintaining this site). Since Robin has chosen to use the market place to monetize rather than going with an ad/membership mix, I'll be happy to support the site that way if/when I sell a game through Pinside (again in lieu of my small annual donation).

Good to know, I don't frequent other sites that are moderated so I wasn't aware.

Now that I think about it, there's a pinball company or two with volunteers so I guess all is normal.

Yeah, it felt a little strange at first when I figured out that the admin of my home brew site was turning a profit, counter to the spirit of the internet or something. But then I thought about all the value I get out of the site and decided it was fair enough to pay him $25/year for providing such a great resource. It's a shift in mindset from "my money goes only to defray hosting costs" to "my money puts food and beer on the admin's table" but if the site is well run then it's worthwhile. Of course there are higher expectations for a professionally-administered site, but Pinside is already operating at that level IMO and in any event Robin seems up to the challenge.

OK, I'll bite. What are they doing to "try" to turn things around? Ripoff Rehab?

I don't know the specifics, but let's just say there has been a changing of the guard.

OK, when you have some meat, please serve it up here. I'm hungry

Here is some meat for you.

FUN! has a full time pinball repair tech who is the best board guy in the area. He is also great at making machines play like they were intended. He has a great reputation locally.

FUN! has a full time floor manager who has a stellar reputation in the local community. The floor manager knows pinball and is very pleasant and friendly with customers.

FUN! has a dedicated owner who is working with the floor manager and the repair tech to ensure that every game sold is working as it should work and is as advertised. Before a game leaves for a new owner, the repair tech has made sure that the game is working 100%. Other staff members make sure the game is clean and fitted with brand new rubbers and balls. The floor manager works with the customer to make sure that the game meets expectations.

FUN! is actively promoting pinball within the local community. This means opening up the game room for launch parties as well as special occasions.

FUN! is providing a tremendous service to the local Texas shows by offering NIB Sterns at a price that allows the show to sell them to the community. The owner, Steve Nordseth, is a terrific gentleman who consistently demonstrate generosity and respect when dealing with the local community.

In my opinion, these are all examples of how FUN! is trying to improve.

My 0.02.

Marcus

I'm not a fan of the new direction Pinside is going in. I see it benefiting a few at the expense of many.

when did FUN! make all that happen? He has reputation that he has accumulated over a decade, selling games not as described and having half ass working games, at CQ prices.

Who are the few and the many in this scenario? You mean Robin and his brother getting paid through fees?

I was going to suggest looking to see if the amount of pinsiders on at any given time has dropped but I cannot see that feature on the left side of the screen on the forum page. Has that been removed?

I don't think that would work here. Pinball is much more niche than homebrewing. I think it would cause far too many to leave.

Not to be argumentative but that is just one example. I find it hard to believe that mods would be willing to work for free while the owners are using the site as their full time job. But maybe some people like to spend their free time working for free and having people pissed at them.

Also, now that Robin is making a living off this website are we allowed to question his decisions? The old line used to be that This is Robin's site and he is running it out of the goodness of his heart so he makes the rules. But now that people are paying to use the site, do they have more say?

Can’t speak for the other Mods, but it is my choice to be a part of this team. As a volunteer I can always say no.

The site is still the same, so I’m happy with that.

Many Not for profit organisations pay staff to do all sorts of work as required. Pinside has grown to the point that it requires to pay for full time programmers, why can’t that person be Robin and Martjin, the founders? The site and all of us will benefit from having full time programmers!

**** This is my opinion and not Pinside.com *****

Yup, that's me.

I love pinball, and I love this site. I'll continue to volunteer my time for as long as they'll have me, and I don't expect a dime in return. I want to do my best to make this a better place, and it doesn't bother me at all if the site allows Robin to support his family. (He's certainly put in enough time and effort over the years to earn that).

Just being a part of this site and the pinball community is reward enough for me. I cannot tell you how appreciative I am of this site, and all the people involved. My wife and I run across so many cool people, and have made some very close friends....and that's much more valuable to me than monetary gains. If I can do all of that WHILE making Pinside better, then sign me up.

Yes, there are some "challenging" users...but as with all of life, you will drive yourself nuts if you focus on the negatives. I find that I'm much happier if my focus is on the positive aspects of this site and the community.

Pete

The exact moment he started buying ads on pinside?

I prefer to be called, "special".

I have noticed that since the pay model has been implemented, there have been very few pins for sale on here. Do you think this will hurt the market here?

I'm going to chime in here too. Honestly, I have zero interest in any compensation. I spend my time on the site because I enjoy the site, the hobby, and the people. There are an interesting mix of personalities here, and it's a unique challenge to interface with them. Unique is the keyword there folks

I've worked in IT for 20 years. In a lot of ways it's similar. We hear a lot of flak, and you grow a thick skin against it. But we also get the occasional, totally unsolicited, "hey, you guys are doing a good job, thanks!" and that makes all the difference in the world.

We all do this because we want to. The entire mod team is made up of people that care. I actually think it would be a very different dynamic if we were paid...

I prefer to be called, "unique".

Locally, many of us have volunteer our time to Lyons Classic Pinball. He operates for profit and not one of us gives a shit.

This is a good chance to Thank all of you for all the help over the years at Lyons Classic Pinball. Most of you know we started a pinball arcade out of the love of all things pinball. If profit was our main goal a strictly pinball arcade is not the way to go. Thank you Kim and all the volunteer's who have made us glad we decided to open to the public. My greatest pride is not in the amount of money we make (laughable) but in the amount of pinheads, pin collectors and pinball players we have created because of our place.
Thanks again to everyone.
Kevin Carroll
Lyons Classic Pinball

Yes. Many pinheads are remarkably cheap, and most people just have an innate dislike of "being told what to do."

But I've noticed the market slowing down anyway over the past few weeks so maybe it's just a coincidence. Wait till Gwaxt gets some new stuff in.

I have no idea if Robin's plan to cover two full-time salaries plus expenses out of pinball sales fees will work here. It may also be that the user base isn't large enough to earn that amount with a combination of ads and voluntary annual membership fees (paid by those that want to avoid the ads or have an animated avatar or whatever). I guess it's possible that everyone will run for the exits if the 0.5% fee on machine sales remains or ads start showing up, or, but I kind of doubt it. So long as this remains the place to go to talk about pinball (which you can still do for free) then it will be an attractive place to advertise games for sale.

Sounds like a sampling of the mods aren't too bothered by it anyway, so that's good news for Pinside. I'll bet you'd find similar arrangements at other forums you visit, you're just less aware of the financial structure and the amount of profit being generated because it's based on showing you ads instead of charging small fees. Maybe I'm in the minority but I'd happily pay a few bucks (and we really are talking about just a few bucks here) not to see ads.

I don't see how anything has changed. It was Robin's site last month. It's Robin's site today. He makes the rules because he owns and administers the site, not because of the profit (or loss) Pinside is operating at. And from where I'm sitting people have felt free to complain about it right along. But if you've felt the site is not sufficiently democratic, monetization of the site could be a good thing for you -- now Robin has an even stronger financial incentive to keep his users happy since if they vote with their feet and quit Pinside they're taking potential fees out of his pocket!

I just looked at a few days so it's not scientific, but I see similar numbers of games listed in the marketplace immediately before and after the new fees were announced. Are there fewer forum threads being started (and if so maybe the $2 fee for non-members to get a forum thread linked to their marketplace ad is having the intended effect?)

Has it always cost something to have a PPW ad listed in the PPW forum? I just placed my first ad looking for a Raven ramp, & was perplexed that it didn't show up in the forum. I guess unless I transfer some money to my Paypal account & donate, it'll just get buried in the ads. Doesn't really matter though. I had been meaning to do that anyways & now it'll just get me moving faster.

Robin made some clarifications about the new system here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/question-about-fee-chargd-for-selling#post-2791785

Notably from my perspective, no fees for parts/mods, and no immediate plans to shut down the regional buy/sell/trade threads or force those into the more formal market place.

I read that, but I was wondering if it was always $2 to have a wanted ad show up in the forum.

Marcus, you're "on the ground" there and have a far better handle on this than I...but what you described simply doesn't square with the hundreds of contrary posts over the years here and on RGP.

Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that George Riley is now shipping games that have the same playfields in them as shown in the "for sale" pics.

No that's new. I didn't know it applied to WTB as well as For Sale ads (could be a bug). As I understand it the rationale was to minimize exposure available to spammers/scammers since they wouldn't automatically get a forum post, but would have to clear the (very low) hurdle of contributing $1 or whatever first.

That said might be worth shooting Robin a PM to ask if it was intentional to include WTB ads in the new changes.

You seem to be right on top of most of the views posted in this thread, so I'm betting you can figure it out.

Im with you Billy, new pinside blows. Has for awhile.

*On a side note*
If anyone wants to bitch about people bringing games to shows or free pinball parties that get too crowded, Im going to tell them to Fuck off.

I do not work for FUN and I agree with this! I have seen nothing but postive contributions to pinball over the last several years from this store.

Until a few years ago, I only knew fun from the internet. Meeting Steve Nordseth and seeing, in person, the contributions FUN has made to the local community has definitely made a good impression on me.

I kind of have the opposite concern of some of the folks here. I don't see how the Marketplace fees are going to be enough to support 2 full time salaries. Let's say that on average, 10 games are sold per day, at an average $20 fee. Could you live on $100 a day? And some of that money has to go to pay for hosting too.

These fees are a step in the right direction, IMO. I just don't think they'll be enough.

All this to be a "professional" pinsider. The saddest thing ever.

Gotcha. In that case I find your comment pretty melodramatic. But it sounds like a $35 fee on a $5000 sale (in exchange for the very broad exposure that Pinside draws) is a deal breaker for you, which is fair enough, I wouldn't try to tell you how or where you should sell your games.

To charge would only cause the vendor to reconsider selling it here at all, (punishing members who want to buy)... Charging for access to the site as a member, (I would leave in a heartbeat).... To make money for the site? Allow special privileges, contests, and giveaways to donating members.

As even non vendors would. Do you think it's fair that an outfit like Fun would sell it's overpriced games here and not pay a commission but still pay e-bay theirs? Pinside is no longer a free advertising site. Get used to it.

Whose fake ID is this one? One post, new account, that's hilarious.

Easily.

that account is 8 months old and has 100 posts...

What the heck, thanks for pointing out the new scoring system for posts. I can't keep up with all this technology.