Hi all. I have a question about a snow derby I am trying to restore.
I have everything down just this last niggle.

Problem: lap unit advances from 0 to 1 on the reset of the AS advance mini stepper. The reset happens when the ball drains at the end of the bonus ladder countdown.

Something is triggering the lap unit to accept the signal from the AS unit switch, but I thought it would be cancelled any time the ball is in the drain hole, so this has me puzzled.

Help!!

Yes yes, I did do that, and it operates damn fine now!! All contacts are accurate with how the bonus advance ring lights the center of the playfield every 10 pts. Then the challenge was getting the leaf switch to register when the cam lobe passes without double stepping.

It seems odd that the switch is registering even when the ball is in the drain hole and I'm half thinking of replacing that leaf with a modern switch that has a contact for open and closed position!

This is an example of normal operation

The spinners are gapped as close to perfect as possible with some great ripping action, but mind you, the spinners only.move the ring lights. The bonus ladder appears to be the lap unit, and that is what advances on the advance unit going to home position on reset... which is actually normal when ball in play but I'm guessing it shouldn't be when ball in drain hole...

Lap unit is clean and setting to reset position correctly with the peg on the ratchet wheel opening both switches on the unit. Moves 15 bonuses correctly.

Thanks Cactus.

I have inspected everything and wires are intact and contacts are good. The machine has 28180 plays in it.

I have uploaded the schematic here but part of it is missing...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1VcWWlvAvK4R0Jabm5XRE9fNEE/view?usp=drivesdk

Interesting, mine is pretty unmolested so I'm trying to understand it as working state without changing too much.

My as relay could still need work but it appears to be understanding home position at 0, lights around the ring are going off at the right sequences and the switch to trigger the lapncountrr is working at the correct position in the rotation, every 10 positions.

It's just that my machine advances the lap counter at the start of each lap (in ball drain) when the as relay is rotating from position 9 to 0 between each ball in play....

Hnmmmm

Studied the schematic... i am stuck in trying to connect how the AS relay at matrix 10f connects to the lap advance at 10e.... because I'm thinking the tilt hold relay should interrupt this but I am not 100% sure how that comes into play at ball drain....? I'm pretty sure my novice skills are responsible here....!

All signs point to switch 1b on the credit motor?

Someone correct me before I lose control? Hahaha

Cj, this is gold.

Gonna try and digest all this!!

*reaches for advil*

From memory, there is only one switch that rides on a cam that is rotated and triggers when it crosses from 9 to 0.

However on adjacent side, there is the AS relay rotating thing that has contact points that rotate like a compass dial. The contacts on either opposing point rides a pcb, and that pcb has all terminals connected from 1-9 and 0 position which is not terminated. I figured out that this is how the machine knows to stop rotating the AS relay as the 0 position is not terminated its how it knows where home position is (not terminated)

From your description, does this switch also serve the purpose of opening the connection between AS relay and lap counter on ball drain?

Ok, I'm seeing it but the tilt is the only consistent thing I see that inturrputs this. I cannot for the life of me read this and decipher where it goes into ball drain state post subtract-coil countdown...

Cj confirms my poor description of the issue... but yes that's it.

My AS relay has been replaced from what it looks like and only one cam with a bump at 12 and 6 trigger the leaf switch to advance the lap relay... there are 20 teeth on the nylon gear that gets ratcheted so the trigger hills are 10 teeth apart

And I did mess with this a fair bit to have it operating correctly with lighting each position accurately with it now returning to home position at 0.

Yes that's the one, that bastard right there!!

Look closely, The ratchet has 20 steps. The wipers also move 20 positions but only half are actually usable.
A cam lobe opposing each other making for 2 lobes total.

12/6 were clock positions I was making reference to, apologies for the confusion.

Did some poking around. The 50pt relay stays energiezed in game over...

As in, if I hit any of the 50pt targets, as per schematic, it doesn't score but the credit wheel will turn.

Normal?

If I turn the credit motor manually in game over, it swings another few degrees by itself. I think 120 or a 3rd of the wheel.... should it be doing that?

It's energized, if I unstick it, it pulls in and I hear buzzing... so something is keeping it on....

I'll check the reset bank for the relays regarding 4th and 5th ball scoring... they swap the kick out holes to 50 points and maybe something there needs to be gapped?

There are only a couple othernplayfield rollovers or switches that score 50 points but don't keep anything engaged...

The 50 also triggers 120 om the credit wheel when in tilt!

Z relay operating ok here.... hmmmm

I checked into anything locking on or getting released on score motor manual turning and everything seems ok.

Would the 10pt in the backboxndo anything?

Mind you, the 50pt triggers kick the z relay and the credit wheel turns 120 degrees or 5 teeth on the lower wheel but there is no scoring recognized

I correct myself, its not energized, its just triggerable in game over. So its not stuck on, but if I manually trigger any of the 50pt switches, it will engage the relay and turn the credit wheel!!! Apologies!

Was re-reading what CJ posted and saw this:

Would this mean the M relay would be gapped incorrectly or jammed or energized to allow the 9th position switch to pass the advance signal to the LAP UNIT?

The 9th position switch acts consistently for every Bonus Collect value (50/100/200pts), BUT if circuit 1B is influenced by the M relay, assuming it is still engaged in G.O. would this explain the 50 point switch still being active to trigger the credit motor?

I love trouble shooting EM games but wow, this is a doozy..

I tried jumpering the trough switch to the drain switch to kick the Subtract Lap to engage and it sorta works, but not quite. It kicks out the ball and the LAP UNIT advances and over the trough switch it kicks down again but adds score.

Cj, thanks for your patience with this!

I will verify the M relay as it is in the head, but oddly, I was also thinking about that and if the switch were always closed, then wouldn't the game score the 10pt in G.O.?

Also, I would say its safe to assume the inserts are being lit correctly at the right positions at the right times and also at the correct 10pt scores.

I supposed what to examine closer is what inturrupts the Advance Switch to advance the Lap Unit, as that switch needs to be disengaged by a circuit when O relay is triggered..?

M relay 10pt is operating ok, no sticking and the switches appear to be gapped within spec...

Monitoring the game performance and sequence of events is what does have me stumped... the inserts sometimes kick back to 0 position while the ball is in the drain, and if 5 pulses are not enough, it still kicks out to the trough where it gets 5 more pulses. It does not add score on each pulse, which is good, but after it crosses the finishline from position 9 to position 0, a lap gets added and it is ONLY sometimes cleared back to 0 laps (only happened twice in a lot of back to back plays) and the Score unit turns 120 degrees - no score is added.

Hey guys, just a quick video displaying gameplay

just bumping this up to see if anyone could post a pic of the mini advance stepper of their snow derby, snow queen?
mine has been replaced, and it seems operational for the most part, but if it is indeed to have 2 switches in addition to the wipers, then I would need to check that out!

Turns out its not replaced... the wires going to it were bundled and taped up leading me to think they were replaced but they look pretty good and no splicing or dicing was done. Hmm so at the end of it, maybe I need a closer look at the as relay but that doesn't make much sense to me...

Very interesting. Thank you for posting these pics! From the looks of it, my relay appears different with the pics above which looks all original. Mine has 2 pcbs and only one switch below and your pics confirm that its incorrect.

Now to think hmmm but those pics are great!!!

Hi guys, thanks so much for the prompt action on the pic request.

The bad news is, my mini stepper has a pcb on either outboard bearing,
Left, does the bulbs around the ring
Right, identifies home position

I only have 1 switch that triggers the lap score unit.

It is plugged in, so that leads me to think its been swapped out and it doesn't latch into the relay chassis like in the pics, its screwed into the bottom of the playfield.

The good news is that the rest of the game is working fantastic and I got the switches and spinners tuned up reallly nice and the game is a real treat and plays really fast...the bulbs on the bonus and lap ring are working perfectly and not skipping positions at all and the scoring is dead on accurate.

Thanks guys for putting up with my dumb questions!! Going to see what the cam is for that 2nd switch.. It's odd because there is no single valley cam that offset to one another on Steve 's site. Single valley cams are only keyed one position...so I'm guessing it's a different shape, and on ball eject, the lap switch isn't active.... or is toggled inactive and then its active again when the ball rolls over the trough switch?

So maybe there is a way to trick the lap unit from scoring on ball eject or something....
Ideas anyone?

Bang on again. My 2nd wiper that handles zero position is closed with 1-9 terminals all soldered together and terminal 0 left unterminated. This looks factory stock as that terminal looks brand new and has never been soldered to.

All the cams are even number lumps. Since this wiper has 2 points on it, there are actually 20 positions on the ratchet, but as one arm of the wiper covers a terminal 0-9, the opposite arm of the wiper covers ground leaving only 10 usable positions. As the wiper rotates, the cycle is repeated every 10 positions.

Oh that would be cool. The parts I believe on the playfields are all the same!

Screenshot_20170729-162901 (resized).png

066868105cb4debe1e6f0365ca45b9fc931a2eeb (resized).jpg

Damn I can't figure out how to delete the pics in the web browser render of this thread.

Just ignore those pics for now!

Haha thanks fellas!

The pic I posted is actually what I'm looking for. Mine has a pcb and wipers closing both sides with only 1 leaf switch on the bottom.

I'll try to get a pic

Those pics are great.

Mine has the chassis and all the other relays. Everything looks totally stock down to the labels still attached to everything.

Heads up, may need a spinner too... and then have everything shipped out to Canada.

Help!

Oddly, what I don't get is how come my wiper pcb does the same thing with closed at all positions except 0, wouldn't the overall expected behavior be the same?

Apparently I don't have access privileges to send you a pm...

Email me?
[email protected]

Hope you get this!

So guys, thanks very much to Mike for the relay assembly. It looks to be in solid shape and all original!

I have adjusted the spring a bit to make sure the relay coil can snap back after advancing the gear.

Looks to be low mileage as well with the wiper disc still having really round contacts. The switches underneath look to open and close when they should.

Even the cotter pin was included so I'm going to get this in place and report back!

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20170810_155244 (resized).jpg

20170810_155228 (resized).jpg

For reference, my old relay.

Notice the change in wiring for the coil.

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Out of curiousity, what prevents the lap scoring when the relay advances and the switch passes from 9 to 0 position on the AS relay?

I know the bonus scoring counts down, but on ball 1-3, laps will sometimes run on over bonus countdown. And this triggers an extra lap... only sometimes?!

Update with confirmation of CACTUSJACKS schematic read, first with the AS RELAY, and then with the lapcounter Q RELAY.

GUESS WHAT? the vids online do not depict proper operation! Adjustment of the q relay results in my video linked here!!

so.. i had it working correctly, or so i thought.

it appears there are a couple switches that can be responsible for this.

1, lap count relay.. the relay should hold in to countdown and score to register (50pts per spot) but when the relay disengages it will trigger the spot to advance

2. there is a switch on the credit motor that is triggered by a lower saw-tooth type of gear and its the 5 teeth advance that count up the 50 pt score when the lap bonuses are countdown.

this credit motor switch stack is also responsible for advancing the PLAYER unit..

I have only been able to adjust the game so that the credit motor will NOT advance the spot bonuses, however that also affects the player unit solenoid from advancing correctly.. and it will only weakly pulse and miss the scoring between players.

so... with that said, I believe normal operation is just to advance the spot bonus with the lap countdown, as adjustment of the opposite is just too intermittent.

ALSO, the AS relay is only responsible for the spot location - advancing on every 10pt and returning to home on reset.

updating this:

the mini stepper was actually incorrect for this game.

a fellow on pinside graciously shipped me the exact unit I needed FOR FREE, and with some adjustment, and a quick transplant of parts from my super low mileage Match Stepper, I had a perfectly working and adjusted unit.

It played good, but i i noticed some things not making sense.
1. score reel on 10's would sometimes skip ahead on bonus countdown.
2. on ball 1-3 the spot advance would sometimes continue advancing on bonus countdown.

step 1 would be an easy fix but a lot of diagnosis.. as I didn't think of looking at the reels first. i cleaned it, and made sure it moved freely, checked the 10pt relay etc. it turns out all that it needed was the decagon spring to be slightly bent to stop the wheel from bouncing ahead on recoil.

after a few plays, it looked good and started to accurately keep score again

step 2, the spot advance had my pulling my hair out and I eventually gave up thinking it was just too old or something that I don't know was out of adjustment and I could not understand how to repair it.

Turned out I eneded up breaking a brass tongue on the credit unit and it controlled a switch stack that 1, counts score, 2 advances the player unit between balls played and 3. advances the Spot advance.

I didn't understand how this worked, and didn't realize that it connects more than just a single circuit but a series of them. I bent some metal to fix the tongue and regapped the switch stack. This got things going again and the scores on the 50pt wouldn't score.

Then i remember this:

I regapped the 50pt switches and checked the 10's relay as the 50pt must cross into the 10pt to ring out the 10pt relay 5x.
After that, and an hour of play, the game OPERATES PERFECTLY.

its scoring properly, its bonus countdown is correctly triggering now, as it was missing the occasional bonus step up. I think that switch stack mentioned earlier has to be open for the lap bonus to work correctly.

Oh and finally, the spot advance HOLDS on the bonus countdown for balls 1-3. It works better than any of the existing video examples on youtube!!

SO THANK-YOU GUYS, for helping me get this to better-than-expected performance, as it went from, "maybe i'll get it working"
to
"well, maybe i can get the rubber replaced"
to
"well its ok if it doesn't score right"
to
"yeah, the bonus lap thing doesn't stop right, is inconsistent.. its 47 yrs old."
to
"wtf is wrong with this thing, is THAT supposed to happen?"
to
"ok, i fixed it!"
to
"ok i broke this and how did THAT get out of adjustment"
to
"ok I fixed this and the other thing that i thought i fixed last week!"
to
"ok its finally playing AS IT LEFT THE FACTORY!!"

THANKS!

I'll link up a gameplay video in the coming days!