No idea of the function on this particular game or if it would cause your issue but those mini steppers are notorious for needing a full tear down cleaning in order for them to work flawless. Not sure if you've done that yet...just spit-ballin'

So the "lap" is the bonus. How's the bonus unit look? I'd start with that stepper if you haven't cleaned and adjusted the switches and the rivets etc on that unit.

Next (or before) you could look at the spinners. Those advance the bonus, correct? Maybe one of those switches is gapped too close?

Helpful would be the portion of the schematic that shows the Lap unit step up (SU) coil which would show us what would prevent the coil from stepping at the last step of the AS relay. More than likely, a contact on the O relay (outhole).

If you watch the video of what you call "Normal Operation" the ball 1, 2, & 3 50 pt bonus count adds a 10 pt spot to the lap as the bonus counts down.
I'm not entirely sure if this correct, but I will say that my very own Snow Derby does this as well. This only occurs during a 50 point bonus count(ball 1, 2, 3 on 5 ball setting).
My view is that it may possibly add 50 points to a score and that is not substantial enough to worry about.
Although I do suspect the AS relay may be in need of tweaking still.
Or, maybe Snow Derby just does this.
Any other owners wish to chime in?

Fun fact;
Snow derby was the first bonus game!
And they had to make it complicated by having it 50, 100, and 200 points per bonus.

So first, I would want to confirm a few things. As you can see by the schematic (All this at 9/10 on the schematic), there are two leaf switches on the AS "Advance unit" (G Relay). One, (Orange and Green wires) should only close at the 9th position (should be closed AT the white insert to the left of the bonus ladder). This is the one that advances the Lap Bonus Stepper (Add Lap Unit). The second one (Brown and Yell/GR wires) should be closed everywhere EXCEPT at the Zero Position (insert lamp to right of bonus ladder). So, not seeing a photo of your AS relay, I am not sure if these two switches are somehow offset from each other (Don't see how), or if they are riding on different cams and therefore close and open on different valleys and peeks. If this is the case, of course, they could have been swapped and are reacting at the wrong time in relationship to the position of the wiper. Likewise, if the Leaf switches have been serviced or replaced, the cam follower may not be in the correct position to open or close the switch at the right time (replacement leaf too long or too short).

Not sure where you are seeing Motor 1B in play here. Motor 1A simply provides 5 pulses per cycle and that is where our step pulses are coming from. Both for Lap Advances as well as Insert Lamp reset function. And this same switch powers a number of other features which I am sure are functioning fine.

So SB (Start Relay), P (Add Player Unit Relay), or O (Ball Return or Outhole relay) all can allow the Zero Position run out switch on G to move the lamp to the first position (Start of Game, When the Ball rolls across the trough runway switch to change ball or player, or Ball sitting in outhole during bonus collect).

But it is the 9th position switch that is going to produce our LAP (Bonus) advance step up. This can only happen if the M relay (10 Points) is energized (Green and White/Orange switch). Obviously, if Bonus Collect value is 50 points, the M relay is going to close this switch during bonus collect.

It is the normally closed switch on Q (Lap Bonus Score Relay) that should prevent this from happening. This same switch path also should be preventing the White Inserts from Advancing during the collection of bonus when bonus score is worth 50 points. The resetting of the insert lamps should only occur after the bonus has been collected and the ball is being served to the player. Of course this could mean up to 5 pulses are sent when the ball is in the outhole and about to be kicked out and another 5 as the ball rolls across the runway switch under the apron to advance ball or player. These combined 10 pulses insure that up to 9 pulses can be sent to cycle the lights back to the beginning position whether it is 1 away or 9 away.

Perhaps a Beer or a Shot is more in order?

Good Luck.

Except for the missing section that's not your fault, that's the best schematic I've seen uploaded here.

Here's the circuit that controls the Advance Unit (G)

Pinball (resized).png

Normally, the leaf switches on the top middle are used to handle the carry over (9's place to advance bonus etc.) and the run out switch (Zero position used to run it back to the beginning each ball) and are used to feed power to relay circuits. The PCBs and wipers on the side are normally used for Lamp control (Single PCB) and position mapping (Double PCB like when used as a Match Unit).

If one side is being used to map to the playfield insert lights, those are 6.3VAC. The 9th position or Zero pos. switches are used in the 28V relay portion of the circuit and therefore cannot be mixed. Of course, if there is a second wiper PCB and there are only 2 wires attached, then that could function as 9th position switch (circuit only made at position 9). But Gottlieb usually didn't do this so that the higher current requirements of the relay circuits wouldn't arc on the PCB traces.

There are also a few different types of cams used on the AS Relays. One, has a single valley. One has 5 valleys and 5 hills (used for Alternator function and 2nd coin unit) and there is also a 2 valley version used for 5 light sequences (instead of 10 like your White Inserts).

Since they are easily removable, and a Pain to many technicians, they were often stolen from games to repair other games. And then someone could have repopulated the game with another unit just to make it work.

A photo of your unit would be helpful to unravel the mystery.

Howard,

As I understand it, his zeroing function is working fine (runs the lights back to the first position at the end of each ball) which is the branch you have highlighted.

His problem is the branch just above for the ADD LAP UNIT. When the Advance unit is being stepped back to zero position between ball changes, the LAP unit is getting an errant advance (after being counted down to zero for bonus collect) just as the Advance unit passes from Position 9 (add bonus) to Zero (home start position).

12 & 6?

You are not describing any AS Relay that I have even know from Gottlieb. The AS (Stands for Adolph Seitz as I recall) relay is this creature and only has 10 steps total:

Not from what I can tell.

The 50 point (Z) relay can be turned on by a large number of playfield switches. Some, at any time, and the holes only when lit for 50 points.

What is odd is if its energized in G.O., it theoretically should be energized all the time except at end of score motor cycle when motor 2B would drop the hold circuit out.

What happens if in game over, you give the score motor a push to run a cycle? Does the Z relay drop out and then pull in again? Also, is it actually energized or just "Stuck"? I had the 50 point relay on my 2001 get magnetized and it would have trouble dropping out but would therefore score multiple 50 points after a drop target was hit until it finally gave way. A smack with a Hammer on Concrete to the Relay armature fixed it!

Z relay (resized).jpg

Are you sure what you are calling Z is actually Z? Sometimes, the paper strip has shifted and all the labeling is off by 1 or 2.

Yes, a Gottlieb score motor goes 120 degrees per cycle. So, 3 cycles happen in 1 full revolution.

First off, you keep saying "credit motor". I believe you are referring to the score motor as it's called (round motor on bottom board with lots of switch stacks around it).

I wondered about the two switches on M relay that are part of this circuit. One of them may be gapped too close and doesn't ever open.

Don't concern yourself that the 50 point relay can still be activated in game over. The engineers took care of it by not allowing the relay to actually add points when tilted or G.O.

Without fully studying the schematic, the returning of the white insert lamps to the start position are handled by three circuits:

1. Pushing the start button causes the SB relay to allow 5 pulses for each cycle of the score motor.

2. When a ball is in the outhole, the first task is to insure the bonus unit is counted down to zero. When at zero, the O relay comes into play and feeds 5 pulses to the G AS relay and ends by kicking a ball over the ball trough to the shooter Lane. But 5 may not be enough. So.....

3. The ball rolls over the runway switch energizing the P relay which can send 5 more pulses to finish the job.

So, there are a total of 15 pulses that ultimately are sent to try to get the G relay back to the zero position. Once at zero, all extra pulses are ignored.

Is the assembly unpluggable in your game (most AS relays are)? It still could be the wrong AS relay as they are game and function specific.

Since it is basically the same function and feature, I would think a photo of an advance unit from a Lawman or Sheriff or perhaps King Kool/Rock would be very similar. Something we determined a long time ago, even if a unit seems to be exactly the same, the wire colors are often different.

Perhaps a photo of your unit from above (Showing the armature and ratchet cams) might give us some insight on what you are dealing with.

Snow Derby

IMG_2929 (resized).JPG

IMG_2927 (resized).JPG

IMG_2930 (resized).JPG

The most important components to your are those two black cams you see that are offset from each other by one step.

I think Steve at Pinball Resource still has all three version of the cams ( I think you just need two of the single valley ones). I am not sure if he also can build the two leaf switches for you or if you will have to make them from generic parts.

I think the cam is simply inserted opposite which might provide the necessary offset.

I can't really tell in the photo: Are we seeing a second raised portion on the either cam? If so, that would make it a two lump cam. We can also see part of the part number on the inside ridge.

You will also notice one set of blades has large flat points. The other, more traditional contact points. The larger is probably used to handle the bonus unit set up (9th POS.). While the other, is the normally closed zero position switch. You say you only have one leaf switch. Is it a make/break? Otherwise, the only way the second PCB wiper could work as a zero position switch would be if they wired 1 through 9 together and left the lug for position zero blank?

I have a snow Queen (4 player) parts Playfield that I could check out to see if my AS relay is there.
Not sure if it would the same as for your Snow Derby (2 player) -

M

as long as you get your cream puffs .....

I have to un-bury my SQ PF - I'll try and get to it tonight -early evening

Can you post a pic or two of what yours looks like? maybe from a bit further away

m