(Topic ID: 193270)

Snow Derby gottlieb lap unit q


By trueno92

1 year ago



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There are 65 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

Hi all. I have a question about a snow derby I am trying to restore.
I have everything down just this last niggle.

Problem: lap unit advances from 0 to 1 on the reset of the AS advance mini stepper. The reset happens when the ball drains at the end of the bonus ladder countdown.

Something is triggering the lap unit to accept the signal from the AS unit switch, but I thought it would be cancelled any time the ball is in the drain hole, so this has me puzzled.

Help!!

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

lap unit advances from 0 to 1 on the reset of the AS advance mini stepper. The reset happens when the ball drains at the end of the bonus ladder countdown.

No idea of the function on this particular game or if it would cause your issue but those mini steppers are notorious for needing a full tear down cleaning in order for them to work flawless. Not sure if you've done that yet...just spit-ballin'

#3 1 year ago

Yes yes, I did do that, and it operates damn fine now!! All contacts are accurate with how the bonus advance ring lights the center of the playfield every 10 pts. Then the challenge was getting the leaf switch to register when the cam lobe passes without double stepping.

It seems odd that the switch is registering even when the ball is in the drain hole and I'm half thinking of replacing that leaf with a modern switch that has a contact for open and closed position!

#4 1 year ago

This is an example of normal operation

#5 1 year ago

So the "lap" is the bonus. How's the bonus unit look? I'd start with that stepper if you haven't cleaned and adjusted the switches and the rivets etc on that unit.

Next (or before) you could look at the spinners. Those advance the bonus, correct? Maybe one of those switches is gapped too close?

#6 1 year ago

The spinners are gapped as close to perfect as possible with some great ripping action, but mind you, the spinners only.move the ring lights. The bonus ladder appears to be the lap unit, and that is what advances on the advance unit going to home position on reset... which is actually normal when ball in play but I'm guessing it shouldn't be when ball in drain hole...

Lap unit is clean and setting to reset position correctly with the peg on the ratchet wheel opening both switches on the unit. Moves 15 bonuses correctly.

#7 1 year ago

Helpful would be the portion of the schematic that shows the Lap unit step up (SU) coil which would show us what would prevent the coil from stepping at the last step of the AS relay. More than likely, a contact on the O relay (outhole).

#8 1 year ago

Thanks Cactus.

I have inspected everything and wires are intact and contacts are good. The machine has 28180 plays in it.

I have uploaded the schematic here but part of it is missing...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1VcWWlvAvK4R0Jabm5XRE9fNEE/view?usp=drivesdk

#9 1 year ago

If you watch the video of what you call "Normal Operation" the ball 1, 2, & 3 50 pt bonus count adds a 10 pt spot to the lap as the bonus counts down.
I'm not entirely sure if this correct, but I will say that my very own Snow Derby does this as well. This only occurs during a 50 point bonus count(ball 1, 2, 3 on 5 ball setting).
My view is that it may possibly add 50 points to a score and that is not substantial enough to worry about.
Although I do suspect the AS relay may be in need of tweaking still.
Or, maybe Snow Derby just does this.
Any other owners wish to chime in?

Fun fact;
Snow derby was the first bonus game!
And they had to make it complicated by having it 50, 100, and 200 points per bonus.

#10 1 year ago

Interesting, mine is pretty unmolested so I'm trying to understand it as working state without changing too much.

My as relay could still need work but it appears to be understanding home position at 0, lights around the ring are going off at the right sequences and the switch to trigger the lapncountrr is working at the correct position in the rotation, every 10 positions.

It's just that my machine advances the lap counter at the start of each lap (in ball drain) when the as relay is rotating from position 9 to 0 between each ball in play....

Hnmmmm

#11 1 year ago

Studied the schematic... i am stuck in trying to connect how the AS relay at matrix 10f connects to the lap advance at 10e.... because I'm thinking the tilt hold relay should interrupt this but I am not 100% sure how that comes into play at ball drain....? I'm pretty sure my novice skills are responsible here....!

#12 1 year ago

All signs point to switch 1b on the credit motor?

#13 1 year ago

Someone correct me before I lose control? Hahaha

#14 1 year ago

So first, I would want to confirm a few things. As you can see by the schematic (All this at 9/10 on the schematic), there are two leaf switches on the AS "Advance unit" (G Relay). One, (Orange and Green wires) should only close at the 9th position (should be closed AT the white insert to the left of the bonus ladder). This is the one that advances the Lap Bonus Stepper (Add Lap Unit). The second one (Brown and Yell/GR wires) should be closed everywhere EXCEPT at the Zero Position (insert lamp to right of bonus ladder). So, not seeing a photo of your AS relay, I am not sure if these two switches are somehow offset from each other (Don't see how), or if they are riding on different cams and therefore close and open on different valleys and peeks. If this is the case, of course, they could have been swapped and are reacting at the wrong time in relationship to the position of the wiper. Likewise, if the Leaf switches have been serviced or replaced, the cam follower may not be in the correct position to open or close the switch at the right time (replacement leaf too long or too short).

Not sure where you are seeing Motor 1B in play here. Motor 1A simply provides 5 pulses per cycle and that is where our step pulses are coming from. Both for Lap Advances as well as Insert Lamp reset function. And this same switch powers a number of other features which I am sure are functioning fine.

So SB (Start Relay), P (Add Player Unit Relay), or O (Ball Return or Outhole relay) all can allow the Zero Position run out switch on G to move the lamp to the first position (Start of Game, When the Ball rolls across the trough runway switch to change ball or player, or Ball sitting in outhole during bonus collect).

But it is the 9th position switch that is going to produce our LAP (Bonus) advance step up. This can only happen if the M relay (10 Points) is energized (Green and White/Orange switch). Obviously, if Bonus Collect value is 50 points, the M relay is going to close this switch during bonus collect.

It is the normally closed switch on Q (Lap Bonus Score Relay) that should prevent this from happening. This same switch path also should be preventing the White Inserts from Advancing during the collection of bonus when bonus score is worth 50 points. The resetting of the insert lamps should only occur after the bonus has been collected and the ball is being served to the player. Of course this could mean up to 5 pulses are sent when the ball is in the outhole and about to be kicked out and another 5 as the ball rolls across the runway switch under the apron to advance ball or player. These combined 10 pulses insure that up to 9 pulses can be sent to cycle the lights back to the beginning position whether it is 1 away or 9 away.

#15 1 year ago

Cj, this is gold.

Gonna try and digest all this!!

*reaches for advil*

#16 1 year ago

Perhaps a Beer or a Shot is more in order?

Good Luck.

#17 1 year ago

From memory, there is only one switch that rides on a cam that is rotated and triggers when it crosses from 9 to 0.

However on adjacent side, there is the AS relay rotating thing that has contact points that rotate like a compass dial. The contacts on either opposing point rides a pcb, and that pcb has all terminals connected from 1-9 and 0 position which is not terminated. I figured out that this is how the machine knows to stop rotating the AS relay as the 0 position is not terminated its how it knows where home position is (not terminated)

From your description, does this switch also serve the purpose of opening the connection between AS relay and lap counter on ball drain?

#18 1 year ago

Except for the missing section that's not your fault, that's the best schematic I've seen uploaded here.

Here's the circuit that controls the Advance Unit (G)

Pinball (resized).png

#19 1 year ago

Ok, I'm seeing it but the tilt is the only consistent thing I see that inturrputs this. I cannot for the life of me read this and decipher where it goes into ball drain state post subtract-coil countdown...

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

From memory, there is only one switch that rides on a cam that is rotated and triggers when it crosses from 9 to 0.
However on adjacent side, there is the AS relay rotating thing that rides a pcb, and that pcb has all terminals connected from 1-9 and 0 position which is not terminated. I figured out that this is how the machine knows to stop rotating the AS relay as the 0 position is not terminated its how it knows where home position is (not terminated)
From your description, does this switch also serve the purpose of opening the connection between AS relay and lap counter on ball drain?

Normally, the leaf switches on the top middle are used to handle the carry over (9's place to advance bonus etc.) and the run out switch (Zero position used to run it back to the beginning each ball) and are used to feed power to relay circuits. The PCBs and wipers on the side are normally used for Lamp control (Single PCB) and position mapping (Double PCB like when used as a Match Unit).

If one side is being used to map to the playfield insert lights, those are 6.3VAC. The 9th position or Zero pos. switches are used in the 28V relay portion of the circuit and therefore cannot be mixed. Of course, if there is a second wiper PCB and there are only 2 wires attached, then that could function as 9th position switch (circuit only made at position 9). But Gottlieb usually didn't do this so that the higher current requirements of the relay circuits wouldn't arc on the PCB traces.

There are also a few different types of cams used on the AS Relays. One, has a single valley. One has 5 valleys and 5 hills (used for Alternator function and 2nd coin unit) and there is also a 2 valley version used for 5 light sequences (instead of 10 like your White Inserts).

Since they are easily removable, and a Pain to many technicians, they were often stolen from games to repair other games. And then someone could have repopulated the game with another unit just to make it work.

A photo of your unit would be helpful to unravel the mystery.

#21 1 year ago

Howard,

As I understand it, his zeroing function is working fine (runs the lights back to the first position at the end of each ball) which is the branch you have highlighted.

His problem is the branch just above for the ADD LAP UNIT. When the Advance unit is being stepped back to zero position between ball changes, the LAP unit is getting an errant advance (after being counted down to zero for bonus collect) just as the Advance unit passes from Position 9 (add bonus) to Zero (home start position).

#22 1 year ago

Cj confirms my poor description of the issue... but yes that's it.

My AS relay has been replaced from what it looks like and only one cam with a bump at 12 and 6 trigger the leaf switch to advance the lap relay... there are 20 teeth on the nylon gear that gets ratcheted so the trigger hills are 10 teeth apart

And I did mess with this a fair bit to have it operating correctly with lighting each position accurately with it now returning to home position at 0.

#23 1 year ago

12 & 6?

You are not describing any AS Relay that I have even know from Gottlieb. The AS (Stands for Adolph Seitz as I recall) relay is this creature and only has 10 steps total:

#24 1 year ago

Yes that's the one, that bastard right there!!

Look closely, The ratchet has 20 steps. The wipers also move 20 positions but only half are actually usable.
A cam lobe opposing each other making for 2 lobes total.

12/6 were clock positions I was making reference to, apologies for the confusion.

#25 1 year ago

Did some poking around. The 50pt relay stays energiezed in game over...

As in, if I hit any of the 50pt targets, as per schematic, it doesn't score but the credit wheel will turn.

Normal?

#26 1 year ago

Not from what I can tell.

The 50 point (Z) relay can be turned on by a large number of playfield switches. Some, at any time, and the holes only when lit for 50 points.

What is odd is if its energized in G.O., it theoretically should be energized all the time except at end of score motor cycle when motor 2B would drop the hold circuit out.

What happens if in game over, you give the score motor a push to run a cycle? Does the Z relay drop out and then pull in again? Also, is it actually energized or just "Stuck"? I had the 50 point relay on my 2001 get magnetized and it would have trouble dropping out but would therefore score multiple 50 points after a drop target was hit until it finally gave way. A smack with a Hammer on Concrete to the Relay armature fixed it!

Z relay (resized).jpg

#27 1 year ago

If I turn the credit motor manually in game over, it swings another few degrees by itself. I think 120 or a 3rd of the wheel.... should it be doing that?

It's energized, if I unstick it, it pulls in and I hear buzzing... so something is keeping it on....

I'll check the reset bank for the relays regarding 4th and 5th ball scoring... they swap the kick out holes to 50 points and maybe something there needs to be gapped?

There are only a couple othernplayfield rollovers or switches that score 50 points but don't keep anything engaged...

#28 1 year ago

The 50 also triggers 120 om the credit wheel when in tilt!

#29 1 year ago

Z relay operating ok here.... hmmmm

#30 1 year ago

Are you sure what you are calling Z is actually Z? Sometimes, the paper strip has shifted and all the labeling is off by 1 or 2.

Yes, a Gottlieb score motor goes 120 degrees per cycle. So, 3 cycles happen in 1 full revolution.

#31 1 year ago

I checked into anything locking on or getting released on score motor manual turning and everything seems ok.

Would the 10pt in the backboxndo anything?

#32 1 year ago

Mind you, the 50pt triggers kick the z relay and the credit wheel turns 120 degrees or 5 teeth on the lower wheel but there is no scoring recognized

I correct myself, its not energized, its just triggerable in game over. So its not stuck on, but if I manually trigger any of the 50pt switches, it will engage the relay and turn the credit wheel!!! Apologies!

#33 1 year ago

Was re-reading what CJ posted and saw this:

Quoted from CactusJack:

"But it is the 9th position switch that is going to produce our LAP (Bonus) advance step up. This can only happen if the M relay (10 Points) is energized (Green and White/Orange switch). Obviously, if Bonus Collect value is 50 points, the M relay is going to close this switch during bonus collect."

Would this mean the M relay would be gapped incorrectly or jammed or energized to allow the 9th position switch to pass the advance signal to the LAP UNIT?

The 9th position switch acts consistently for every Bonus Collect value (50/100/200pts), BUT if circuit 1B is influenced by the M relay, assuming it is still engaged in G.O. would this explain the 50 point switch still being active to trigger the credit motor?

I love trouble shooting EM games but wow, this is a doozy..

I tried jumpering the trough switch to the drain switch to kick the Subtract Lap to engage and it sorta works, but not quite. It kicks out the ball and the LAP UNIT advances and over the trough switch it kicks down again but adds score.

#34 1 year ago

First off, you keep saying "credit motor". I believe you are referring to the score motor as it's called (round motor on bottom board with lots of switch stacks around it).

I wondered about the two switches on M relay that are part of this circuit. One of them may be gapped too close and doesn't ever open.

Don't concern yourself that the 50 point relay can still be activated in game over. The engineers took care of it by not allowing the relay to actually add points when tilted or G.O.

Without fully studying the schematic, the returning of the white insert lamps to the start position are handled by three circuits:

1. Pushing the start button causes the SB relay to allow 5 pulses for each cycle of the score motor.

2. When a ball is in the outhole, the first task is to insure the bonus unit is counted down to zero. When at zero, the O relay comes into play and feeds 5 pulses to the G AS relay and ends by kicking a ball over the ball trough to the shooter Lane. But 5 may not be enough. So.....

3. The ball rolls over the runway switch energizing the P relay which can send 5 more pulses to finish the job.

So, there are a total of 15 pulses that ultimately are sent to try to get the G relay back to the zero position. Once at zero, all extra pulses are ignored.

#35 1 year ago

Cj, thanks for your patience with this!

I will verify the M relay as it is in the head, but oddly, I was also thinking about that and if the switch were always closed, then wouldn't the game score the 10pt in G.O.?

Also, I would say its safe to assume the inserts are being lit correctly at the right positions at the right times and also at the correct 10pt scores.

I supposed what to examine closer is what inturrupts the Advance Switch to advance the Lap Unit, as that switch needs to be disengaged by a circuit when O relay is triggered..?

#36 1 year ago

M relay 10pt is operating ok, no sticking and the switches appear to be gapped within spec...

Monitoring the game performance and sequence of events is what does have me stumped... the inserts sometimes kick back to 0 position while the ball is in the drain, and if 5 pulses are not enough, it still kicks out to the trough where it gets 5 more pulses. It does not add score on each pulse, which is good, but after it crosses the finishline from position 9 to position 0, a lap gets added and it is ONLY sometimes cleared back to 0 laps (only happened twice in a lot of back to back plays) and the Score unit turns 120 degrees - no score is added.

#37 1 year ago

Hey guys, just a quick video displaying gameplay

1 week later
#38 1 year ago

just bumping this up to see if anyone could post a pic of the mini advance stepper of their snow derby, snow queen?
mine has been replaced, and it seems operational for the most part, but if it is indeed to have 2 switches in addition to the wipers, then I would need to check that out!

#39 1 year ago

Turns out its not replaced... the wires going to it were bundled and taped up leading me to think they were replaced but they look pretty good and no splicing or dicing was done. Hmm so at the end of it, maybe I need a closer look at the as relay but that doesn't make much sense to me...

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

Turns out its not replaced... the wires going to it were bundled and taped up leading me to think they were replaced but they look pretty good and no splicing or dicing was done. Hmm so at the end of it, maybe I need a closer look at the as relay but that doesn't make much sense to me...

Is the assembly unpluggable in your game (most AS relays are)? It still could be the wrong AS relay as they are game and function specific.

Since it is basically the same function and feature, I would think a photo of an advance unit from a Lawman or Sheriff or perhaps King Kool/Rock would be very similar. Something we determined a long time ago, even if a unit seems to be exactly the same, the wire colors are often different.

Perhaps a photo of your unit from above (Showing the armature and ratchet cams) might give us some insight on what you are dealing with.

#41 1 year ago

Snow Derby

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#42 1 year ago

Very interesting. Thank you for posting these pics! From the looks of it, my relay appears different with the pics above which looks all original. Mine has 2 pcbs and only one switch below and your pics confirm that its incorrect.

Now to think hmmm but those pics are great!!!

#43 1 year ago

The most important components to your are those two black cams you see that are offset from each other by one step.

I think Steve at Pinball Resource still has all three version of the cams ( I think you just need two of the single valley ones). I am not sure if he also can build the two leaf switches for you or if you will have to make them from generic parts.

#44 1 year ago

Hi guys, thanks so much for the prompt action on the pic request.

The bad news is, my mini stepper has a pcb on either outboard bearing,
Left, does the bulbs around the ring
Right, identifies home position

I only have 1 switch that triggers the lap score unit.

It is plugged in, so that leads me to think its been swapped out and it doesn't latch into the relay chassis like in the pics, its screwed into the bottom of the playfield.

The good news is that the rest of the game is working fantastic and I got the switches and spinners tuned up reallly nice and the game is a real treat and plays really fast...the bulbs on the bonus and lap ring are working perfectly and not skipping positions at all and the scoring is dead on accurate.

Thanks guys for putting up with my dumb questions!! Going to see what the cam is for that 2nd switch.. It's odd because there is no single valley cam that offset to one another on Steve 's site. Single valley cams are only keyed one position...so I'm guessing it's a different shape, and on ball eject, the lap switch isn't active.... or is toggled inactive and then its active again when the ball rolls over the trough switch?

So maybe there is a way to trick the lap unit from scoring on ball eject or something....
Ideas anyone?

#45 1 year ago

I think the cam is simply inserted opposite which might provide the necessary offset.

I can't really tell in the photo: Are we seeing a second raised portion on the either cam? If so, that would make it a two lump cam. We can also see part of the part number on the inside ridge.

You will also notice one set of blades has large flat points. The other, more traditional contact points. The larger is probably used to handle the bonus unit set up (9th POS.). While the other, is the normally closed zero position switch. You say you only have one leaf switch. Is it a make/break? Otherwise, the only way the second PCB wiper could work as a zero position switch would be if they wired 1 through 9 together and left the lug for position zero blank?

#46 1 year ago

Bang on again. My 2nd wiper that handles zero position is closed with 1-9 terminals all soldered together and terminal 0 left unterminated. This looks factory stock as that terminal looks brand new and has never been soldered to.

All the cams are even number lumps. Since this wiper has 2 points on it, there are actually 20 positions on the ratchet, but as one arm of the wiper covers a terminal 0-9, the opposite arm of the wiper covers ground leaving only 10 usable positions. As the wiper rotates, the cycle is repeated every 10 positions.

#47 1 year ago

I have a snow Queen (4 player) parts Playfield that I could check out to see if my AS relay is there.
Not sure if it would the same as for your Snow Derby (2 player) -

M

#48 1 year ago

Oh that would be cool. The parts I believe on the playfields are all the same!

Screenshot_20170729-162901 (resized).png

066868105cb4debe1e6f0365ca45b9fc931a2eeb (resized).jpg

#49 1 year ago

Damn I can't figure out how to delete the pics in the web browser render of this thread.

Just ignore those pics for now!

#50 1 year ago

as long as you get your cream puffs .....

I have to un-bury my SQ PF - I'll try and get to it tonight -early evening

Can you post a pic or two of what yours looks like? maybe from a bit further away

m

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