Smoked my Pinball Magic (it gave me a headache)

I headed up the the bar last night to fix a tilt issue and install a new plunger on my F-14 , replaced a few bulbs and clean her up

then it was on to Pinball Magic , all her backglass GI's were out and some of her Play-field lights too .. I had found out what the problem was a week ago and realized the Molex was burnt and If I shook it a little things would light up ..

so I replaced the molex , but not the header( stupid me ) just as I was about to plug it in , A gal not waring much wanted to play F14 Well I was on a stool looking down when I plugged it in ... "watch this "... I turned it on and she started smoking , it was on about 3 seconds .. I melted about 10 feet of brown wire... It comes from the transformer and goes to the power supply board

what did I really screw up ? I pulled the game with the help of some guys , and am thinking about taking to the local dealer at 90 bucks an hour ... I feel I can fix it ..? with out distractions

#2 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
so I replaced the molex , but not the header( stupid me ) just as I was about to plug it in

Which molex connector and header number.

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
I melted about 10 feet of brown wire... It comes from the transformer and goes to the power supply board

Again, connector number and pin would be helpful.
Did any of the fuses blow?
If so, which one(s).

I would double check your molex rework. Did you crimp on new contacts or just change the housing?

#3 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Pd man ... thanks The Molex is J1 on the power supply board ... the pins for the brown and brown/white are #5 and #7 these two wires run strait to the large transformer in the cabinet , I stopped the melt before they reached those wires coming from that transformer ...

I checked all the fuses non are out , although F2 and F1 leds are out F3 is lit ..

here is the header pin thats burnt , I dont know if I did it or it was like that ?

looks at the work done to this board ... looks in awful shape

// Error: Image 25964 not found // // Error: Image 25965 not found //

#4 11 years ago

RIK

Rick471

Pinside member

Albuquerque, NM

13y 54,150 1,077 4 6

Its probably fixable but the problem with boards like that is you will have a hard time diagnosing problems.

It can be done with time/patience tho.

#5 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Is there anything I can test ?

should I just sent in the power supply board?

thanks

#6 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

Don't know what your electronic and troubleshooting chops are but Yes, there is a lot you can test.
First thing would be to disconnect all the Power supply feeds to the other PCBs. Then power up the pin and check all the voltages on the PS PCB. If all voltages are OK, then power down and connect power to one PCB at a time. Turn ON and recheck voltages. IF OK, power down, connect another PCB to power and turn ON the game.

If your voltages are no good when just testing the Power supply PCB, then you would troubleshoot the PS .

Do you have the Manual? Can you read schematics?

#7 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

I do have the Manual , no I do not read schematics ,

the game turns on , it has a start up noise , all the led lights on the fuses are on....f-7 -f17

I have no DMD no lights ...

I would be ok with sending the board in , I dont think anyone will take it ..

new molex on the way

#8 11 years ago

TOM

tomdotcom

Pinside member

Kamloops, BC

15y 112K 6,198 2

That board looks like someone put it in the toaster...wow...

#9 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

yes , I would say thats why I have had so many issues with the GI's, cooked looking

the next game I buy , look out Im going to remove all boards and really dig into that thing..

#10 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

Can you use a meter and at least measure voltages?
Is the wire melting again or is anything smoking?

I might be able to look at your PS PCB, I have a PM.

Do you know anyone in your area or friend that can help you troubleshoot?

#11 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

yes I can test voltages , no nothing smoking ,

nope not in Portland , , both places that work on pinball machines have never seen a capcom pinball machine, the one wanted nothing to do with it ..

could you take a picture of the transformer J1 connection so i can make sure I have the brown\white brown in the right location ?

thanks PD man ...

the thing about the J1 connection on the PS PCB is that you have 2 pins to connect each wire ..as you know ...

thanks for your wise input
TJ

#12 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
could you take a picture of the transformer J1 connection so i can make sure I have the brown\white brown in the right location ?

Will be able to get a pic Thursday night or Friday.
Will post then

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
nope not in Portland , , both places that work on pinball machines have never seen a capcom pinball machine, the one wanted nothing to do with it ..

Capcoms aren't that much different from the other Manufacturers. CPU, Driver, Switch, PS, DMD, Power Distribution, etc.
As long as they have the Manual, shouldn't be that different to troubleshoot.

#13 11 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

Quoted from pdman:
As long as they have the Manual, shouldn't be that different to troubleshoot.

Except when they hand you a $400 bill for a new board.

#14 11 years ago

BOB

MrSanRamon

Pinside member

San Ramon, CA

19y 107K 3,483 6

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
looks at the work done to this board ... looks in awful shape

Man, I thought I screwed up when I shorted out my DH with a nut driver...this is way worse.

Robert

#15 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

Quoted from TheLaw:
Except when they hand you a $400 bill for a new board.

I don't think that a new PS PCB would be needed. Even if tracks were burned it could be kluged with wire. Connectors can be replaced, Caps, resistors, etc.

I'll make sure I get some pics for you on Thursday or Friday.
Again, I may be able to repair the PS PCB for you.

#16 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Again, I may be able to repair the PS PCB for you.

thanks PD man , I would hate to see the bill at 90 bucks an hour for a 15 dollar an hour guy to do the work ..

here is the picture of what I need , which wire goes above the gray wires , brown or brown/white

thanks I will be polishing the wire forms until the molex shows up

#17 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Again, I may be able to repair the PS PCB for you.

thanks PD man , I would hate to see the bill at 90 bucks an hour for a 15 dollar an hour guy to do the work ..

here is the picture of what I need , which wire goes above the gray wires , brown or brown/white

thanks I will be polishing the wire forms until the molex shows up

trans_plug.jpg

#18 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Just read my last post .... hope I didn't sound like an asshole ..

what I ment to say is , the local Mountain coin charges 90/hr , but they pay there guys 15/hr , I've been on the phone with then and they are not that friendly ... 45 bucks for the 2 molex pins needed in the picture ..

Pdman , I would love to send you that board , I just need the knowledge of where that whire goes as shown in the picture

Thanks again

#19 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

here is the picture of what I need , which wire goes above the gray wires , brown or brown/white

I'm not sure what connector we are looking at. Can you post a pic showing what it connects to on the harness?
Also not sure on which wire brn or brn/white? Does this mean you have 2 wires that aren't connected to the connector ? Why are they not connected? Are these the wires that burned? I need more info.

Here's a pic of what I thought you were talking about. I will disconnect the connector and take closer better pics on Saturday.

100_0213.JPG

#20 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OK here you go. The Brown wire should go to pin 3 and the Brown/White wire to pin 9.

ConnMaleToHarness.JPG

#21 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

Here's the female connector that goes to the Transformer.

ConnFemToXformer.JPG

#22 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Pd man . that is awesome , thanks ... that a big help .. I will put her back together tomorrow

long day on the ocean

#23 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Everything works !!!!!! well at least it turns on and plays ... but im back to the original issue , no back box lights and there are quite a few play field lights out too..

before , I just had to wiggle J1 (the molex I just replaces on the PB) a sizzle later and the back box lights were on..

after (I replaced the molex) ----I have no F1 or F2 LEDS.. I do have power at F2's Fuse 7.4 volts but I do not have any power at F1 ....

I took the PB back out and realized how hot the BR 1-2 and 3 were (the heat sink) and how hot Q1's transister was ..to hot to touch. is that normal?

Is there something I should be testing ?

thanks all

#24 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
before , I just had to wiggle J1 (the molex I just replaces on the PB) a sizzle later and the back box lights were on..

after (I replaced the molex) ----I have no F1 or F2 LEDS.. I do have power at F2's Fuse 7.4 volts but I do not have any power at F1 ....

Did you reinspect your work at J1? Did you check continuity from the J1 pins, 1 through 13, to where they're supposed to go?
Did either F1 or F2 Blow?

When measuring at F2 fuse were you measuring AC or DC and what were your test points?
Likewise for F1.

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
I took the PB back out and realized how hot the BR 1-2 and 3 were (the heat sink) and how hot Q1's transister was ..to hot to touch. is that normal?

Well they can get Hot, I'm not sure how hot but I do recall working in the head during the summer when the temp was about 92 and the bridges were running pretty hot. But that was the summer.

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
Is there something I should be testing ?

Yes. BR2 F2 circuit is supplying +20A and +18 while the BR1 F1 circuit is supplying +20B.

With power Off, disconnect connectors J8, J6, J9, J10 and J11 from the PB.
Turn On the power and see if you can measure 20A at the D1 anode and cathode to Gnd. If good measure at PCB J8 connector. (You do have the schematic?)

Next measure 20B at D2 anode and cathode to Gnd. If good measure at J8, J9, J10 and J11.
If OK continue.

With power off, plug in the J9 connector. Measure 20B. If ok, power off, connect J10, power On and measure 20B again. do this for J11 and finally J8. If at any point you do not get ~ 20 VDC, that will indicate you are loading the voltage and can relate it to the connector that was reinstalled.

Do the same for J6 and J8 connector for 20A and +18.
You have to find what is loading the voltages.

Also, I'm pretty sure all GI is controlled by the Driver PCB dynamically, no static GI.
.

#25 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
before , I just had to wiggle J1 (the molex I just replaces on the PB) a sizzle later and the back box lights were on..

after (I replaced the molex) ----I have no F1 or F2 LEDS.. I do have power at F2's Fuse 7.4 volts but I do not have any power at F1 ....

Did you reinspect your work at J1? Did you check continuity from the J1 pins, 1 through 13, to where they're supposed to go?
Did either F1 or F2 Blow?

When measuring at F2 fuse were you measuring AC or DC and what were your test points?
Likewise for F1.

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
I took the PB back out and realized how hot the BR 1-2 and 3 were (the heat sink) and how hot Q1's transister was ..to hot to touch. is that normal?

Well they can get Hot, I'm not sure how hot but I do recall working in the head during the summer when the temp was about 92 and the bridges were running pretty hot. But that was the summer.

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
Is there something I should be testing ?

Yes. BR2 F2 circuit is supplying +20A and +18 while the BR1 F1 circuit is supplying +20B.

Next measure 20B at D2 anode and cathode to Gnd. If good measure at J8, J9, J10 and J11.
If OK continue.

Do the same for J6 and J8 connector for 20A and +18.
You have to find what is loading the voltages.

Also, I'm pretty sure all GI is controlled by the Driver PCB dynamically, no static GI.
.

#26 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Pb no I did not check continuity ,the work was inspected and looks great ....

I measured,black to ground and red, to the LED side of the fuse F1 F2
I did not blow any fuses

Hot like I will burn you ..

thanks I will try those things when I get out of work tomorrow

#27 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Im not sure where 20B at D2 is ...20? volts D2 it that one of the big CAP's?

yes the GI's are controlled dynamically ... I read that , but really have no Idea what that meens other than they are more reliable ?

I will post a pic of the attempt

Thanks

#28 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
Im not sure where 20B at D2 is ...20? volts D2 it that one of the big CAP's?

No, D2 is a diode. Look at the schematic for the PS PCB and you will see it.
Yes you are going to measure ~ 20VDC. The actual voltage should be a bit higher than 20 VDC.

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
yes the GI's are controlled dynamically ... I read that , but really have no Idea what that means other than they are more reliable ?

A lot of GI circuits are always on or off, providing 6.3 VAC to the Lamps. This is Static, always on or off.
Dynamic GI circuits are controlled by the CPU and driver PCB. This setup allows the GI lamps to be turned on and off dimmed, strobed, pulsed, etc.

#29 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

at the D1 I am getting 23v J8 plug I am getting

J8 reading

pin 1 0v
2 0v
3 4.3v
4 4.3v
5 key
6 4.3
7 4.3
8 0
9 0

D2 23V

J6 went 3.3v on Pin 7

all the rest connectors are reading 0 volts

Pm me your adress Pd man , If you like fine smoked salmon, I will send some for a thanks to you!
how do you guy know this shit ?

_{Post edited by Dawson : realized the F1 fuse was out}

#30 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

Were these measurements made with connectors J8, J6, J9, J10 and J11 disconnected from the PB?

#31 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Pb
yes

#32 11 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

I'm watching this and giving you my best wishes Dawson. pdman is a great guy and has helped me with my Magic...which I'm waiting for some parts to get around to soon.

#33 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
J8 reading

pin 1 0v
2 0v
3 4.3v
4 4.3v
5 key
6 4.3
7 4.3
8 0
9 0

D2 23V

OK you got D2 voltage at 23VDC referenced to Gnd. Where are you connecting your probe to Gnd?
The reason I ask this is because when you measured J8 - 3,4,6 and7 you are getting 4.3VDC. These pins are the Gnd or returns for the D1 and D2 voltages. Also at J8-1 and 2, you should be reading 23VDC, same as you did for D2.
So I need to know what changed with your black probe and/or where you are placing it in the circuit to make these measures.

Here is what you measured and what you should be getting at J8:
pin
1 0v sb 23VDC same as D2
2 0v sb 23VDC same as D2
3 4.3v sb 0VDC
4 4.3v sb 0VDC
5 key
6 4.3 sb 0VDC
7 4.3 sb 0VDC
8 0 sb 23VDC same as D1
9 0 sb 23VDC same as D1

#34 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
how do you guy know this shit ?

I have been repairing, modifying and designing electronic circuits since the mid 70's. Been in Hi-Tech businesses since that time as well. A lot of Hi-Tech in the Metro Boston area. I also do audio work especially music electronics, Amps, especially tube, FX and pedals, Vintage and some late model synths especially old analog synths, and on and on.

#35 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

I found a new board in AU ....at the pinball spare parts place ...99 bucks NOS...

I might have to go that route, as im trying to get this machine back out to the public before I go to Alaska..

have you guys ever ordered from over there ?

7 day shipping . 24 bucks

#36 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

what is the web site? I have ordered 2 diverter arms for the stage ramp, from Australia.
Not sure of the company though, so please provide site link.

#37 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
I found a new board in AU ....at the pinball spare parts place ...99 bucks NOS...

Your issue could be that the 20 VDC is being loaded down. A new PCB won't fix that.

#38 11 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

I've ordered parts from that site. They did me right, but I didn't get boards from them.

#39 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

TheLaw
Do you have the site address? I think it may be the same place I ordered my diverter arms.

#40 11 years ago

SMK

TheLaw

Pinside+ Addict

http://www.pinball.co/

Probably the same place...they come up on a lot of Capcom searches.

#41 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

Thanks Law

That's where I got my diverter arm for PM. They call it a paddle assembly
A-00182
Paddle Assembly, Pinball Magic
Paddle Assembly diverter
For the stage for the pinball magic
Picture in manual is different for this. it shows the wand diverter.

I emailed them when i ordered about the manual error.

#42 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

Pd man .. thanks for the advice , I asked my gal to order the part today , I dont think she did ( good thing)?

Quoted from pdman:
Dawson said:J8 reading
pin 1 0v
2 0v
3 4.3v
4 4.3v
5 key
6 4.3
7 4.3
8 0
9 0
D2 23V
OK you got D2 voltage at 23VDC referenced to Gnd. Where are you connecting your probe to Gnd?
The reason I ask this is because when you measured J8 - 3,4,6 and7 you are getting 4.3VDC. These pins are the Gnd or returns for the D1 and D2 voltages. Also at J8-1 and 2, you should be reading 23VDC, same as you did for D2.
So I need to know what changed with your black probe and/or where you are placing it in the circuit to make these measures.
Here is what you measured and what you should be getting at J8:
pin
1 0v sb 23VDC same as D2
2 0v sb 23VDC same as D2
3 4.3v sb 0VDC
4 4.3v sb 0VDC
5 key
6 4.3 sb 0VDC
7 4.3 sb 0VDC
8 0 sb 23VDC same as D1
9 0 sb 23VDC same as D1

just read this post ,

I was placing the black test wire on the PBs upper right mounting screw

I have the manual and can see what I should be getting out of these connectors ..( Im feeling smarter)

did you go to a school for this stuff? of just a lot of reading a trial and error?

thanks so much
TJ

#43 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
did you go to a school for this stuff? of just a lot of reading a trial and error?

I went to GTE Sylvania Tech way back in the early 70s. I also took night courses at Lowell Institute in Cambridge and software, programming at WPI. Plus I learned a lot on the job and In House training. Also took LabView training from NI National Instruments. I have also been fortunate to have worked with many amazing people who have taken me under their wings and showed me so many tips and info. I am indebted to them and I have always tried to pass their lessons and knowledge on, as best I can, to the next generation.

But when I was younger and even still today, I ate , drank and shit electronics!! I repaired anything I could get my hands on. I breadboarded and built project after project. Analog and Digital, Vacuum Tubes to CPU's.

You know if you have the Basics of Electronics Theory down, you can read and understand schematics and you do the hands on, you can just about fix most electronic devices.

It's also good to have a good workbench and all the test gear you can buy and make.
A DMM is a must. I am very partial to Oscilloscopes. One of my instuctors used to say, "The Scoop is in the Scope."

Last but not least the Net has been great for all areas of Electronics. Just look at here, Pinside, as an example. So much knowledge and help is available here. Forums are available for any electronic interest you may have and are great ways to learn.

I continue to learn new things all the time! You can never learn enough.

#44 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

so Is that a good ground , upper right corner of the board ?

my gal had ordered the PB .. and a couple plastics . but your saying it might not be the PB? as toasted and hacked as that board looked It cant hurt to have a backup.(thats what I thought anyway)

Quoted from pdman:
Dawson said:I found a new board in AU ....at the pinball spare parts place ...99 bucks NOS...
Your issue could be that the 20 VDC is being loaded down. A new PCB won't fix that.

what causes that ? bad transformer?

wow, thats a good bunch of school.. I have no clue what an Oscilloscope does .. (well kinda) A DMM is great if you know what your proding around at .. sometimes they make me feel smart.

#45 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
so Is that a good ground , upper right corner of the board ?

You should use J8-3, 4, 6 or 7 as Gnd points. Any one of them will do. Actually use the DMM on ohms and make sure those pins all have continuity to each other.

Next measure the following at J8:
pin
1 23VDC same as D2
2 23VDC same as D2
3 0VDC
4 0VDC
5 key
6 0VDC
7 0VDC
8 23VDC same as D1
9 23VDC same as D1

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
what causes that ? bad transformer?

No, it would be something that the 23 VDC feeds, like power for the mosfets for coils, amps, etc.
This is why you need to measure on the PB with all those connectors unplugged. Once you know you have the proper voltages, you will plug in the connectors one at a time(with power turned off) and then see which one loads the voltage down. From there you would see where that run is going toand what circuits and/or PCB.

#46 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

used J8 3,4,6,7 as ground points .. I am getting no voltage at D2 now or at pin 1-2

I an getting voltage at D1 23v and at pins 8-9 23v

when testing the connector im getting 4.3v at 3,4 6,7

continuity at grounds 3,4 and 6,7 were good 3,6 and 4,7 read 7-9 hundred?
F1 seems dead ...

blinking led on the CPU?

#47 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
used J8 3,4,6,7 as ground points .. I am getting no voltage at D2 now or at pin 1-2
I an getting voltage at D1 23v and at pins 8-9 23v
when testing the connector im getting 4.3v at 3,4 6,7
continuity at grounds 3,4 and 6,7 were good 3,6 and 4,7 read 7-9 hundred?
F1 seems dead ...
blinking led on the CPU?

I actually am getting voltages at D2...and at pin 1-2!
F1 fuse was blown although you would not believe it by looking at it ... DMM

so that seems good

Thanks TJ

#48 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member

every things a go.. wholly shit , Im still in dis array about it , I would recon it was a cracked fuse ..

sometimes it worked sometimes it didn't WTF wholly crap its running ..

Pd . smoked sockeye on your way if you want to send me your address much appreciated

#49 11 years ago

KIM

pdman

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
sometimes it worked sometimes it didn't WTF wholly crap its running ..

Wow, It was the fuse that was intermittent? And then it finally blew?

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
F1 fuse was blown although you would not believe it by looking at it ... DMM

That's why so many here stress that a fuse needs to be checked with a meter and not the naked eye! However it seems like the fuse was intermittent, possibly rubbing up against one of the end caps. Can you see a break in the fuse wire or does it look OK?

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
every things a go.. wholly shit , Im still in dis array about it

LOL! Well this has been a good learning experience. I'm glad to see your PM is up and running again.

OP
Quoted from Dawson:
Pd . smoked sockeye on your way if you want to send me your address much appreciated

Wow, sounds good, love salmon.

#50 11 years ago

TJD

Dawson

Pinside member