I'll take some steak knives

Matt R of Back Alley is an employee of JJP. Matt owns Back Alley as well. Matt did the sculpt toys for WOZ, Hobbit, and likely Pats game. He's good...don't worry.

Not an employee, but close enough. Gotta remember the sculpts all come from someone else's design and have to be approved, just like everything else. I believe Matt said on another thread that he had designs he liked better for the pop-ups, but these were chosen by the studio instead.

Wow, really? It's just one person? I assumed it was a whole creative team/company doing the toys. They rely on just 1 single person for creating the toys in an entire game?? That does not seem wise at all given their (his) past work, no?

If you're not worried I'm certainly not worried! I was just hoping for the best for this game. Actually, I was really hoping JJP was going to announce an affordable "regular" version of this game but I guess that's not happening (since the regular edition is now simply priced as the limited edition was.)

The pull out has already happened. Everyone I know personally who had TH on order is now out. The last two hold outs canceled after the demoralizing Expo reveal. Fixing what is wrong with this game beyond small things like the book toy without a time machine would mean months and months of delays. Best to cut losses, produce the games with some quick band aid fixes for damage control and move on to game 3 with Pat Lawlor possibly saving the company from outright failure.

So what you are saying is at these prices TH and STLE are for suckers only

Well. It sounds like the game at Expo wasn't even complete anyway and that was before all of the criticism. The action button on the lockdown didn't exist, the ball just dropped off the Smaug divertor, the apron looked incomplete and the book was just a placeholder. By IAAPA next month I think the game will look much more polished liked planned.

It's not time to cut losses now. I bet they have a ton of money already invested into the game. In my opinion it's time to focus, make some of the changes the customers want and produce a kick ass game. The bones for an amazing game are there but now it just needs to brought to life with some more modeled out areas and polish in other areas of the game.

If a lot of customers are backing out I hope we hear soon from Jack what some of the changes that came out of the four hour team meeting are.

I think you figured out jjp's secret. The action button brings out all kind of mechs, wireforms and shit to hit besides standup targets. Kudos on figuring it out.

Thats' where I'm worried. I don't see "the bones of a great game." Weak PF art? OK.. I can live with the "licensor handcuffed us" excuse. But the lack of any really interesting looking shots and the brutal Smaug? I don't know that there's enough lipstick to put on that pig.

If JJP were completely free to make changes on the fly, that would be one thing- but we've heard over and over all the restrictions from the license. I think that license agreement handcuffed JJP into a pinball machine whose art/mechanics were dictated by non pinball people.... hard to overcome that.

I think the smart money is flying OUT of this game. Maybe not permanently, but at least until they show its more than a great theme....

Just out of curiosity if someone switches from LE to SE will it delay production time or will LE's and SE's be done at the same time. In others words are all the LE's being made then the SE's?

Both at same time. If you go from LE to SE you will not lose your production spot

JJP will be fine. They just sold 86 to a movie theater.

I'll be at IAAPA to check it first hand. NFW will the Smaug toy "polished like planned" and that is the main reason people are bailing.

I do look forward to the controlled drop targets and hope there is some more polished software at least by then.

he was crowing about putting a quote together for this, did jack confirm the sale went through today? jack is really transparent lately, good to see. how many cancelled pre orders did he mention he had to process since expo?

You conveniently forgot to mention that the ship on STLE shoots the ball back at you. However I never said anything about the ST ship. I was thinking more like the LE Hulk or the POTC ship. They talk back to you and move, and they look much better than the Smaug. Then theres those pop up target characters, and axes. They all just look terrible in my opinion. I love my WOZ game but the witch and trees just don't look right.

I just think that JJP needs some help with their toys because they are not innovative and detailed enough. DP and Stern makes better pinball toys so far. Simple as that. Ass kicking may be a little exaggerated but this is Pinside so...

I don't know if it will happen, but just imagine, all droptargets up, one is down. You have to hit the standup target behind that droptarget. Only Problem is this gap in the droptargets is moving like a wave around, sometimes it stops and goes the other way around. So you have one moving target similar to the crane in Batman DK. Would this be a cool shot?
I don't know if we will see this. But with Keith on the code there are so many very cool things he can do with this technic, things we have never seen before in a Pinball game. So I am sure this will work out and I take it over just one smash toy that would shake or bend down. Smaug will interact as main evil antagonist of this game. Just like the witch in WOZ.
I still think all what this game needs is more bling. I don't want to see diverters and ugly flat pastics they should be covered with 3D things. I think the ramps should look like something that the dwarfs could have forged.
Smaug is the new king of the dwarf city, undisputed ruler of the lonely mountain. It's his dominion and we want to conquer him and take what he has robbed from the dwarfs. The smaug head looks good, the animation when he talks is great, but without his surrounding he looks more like one of the two old muppets who are taunting fozzy bear. I would wish, that as a player I would have to be careful not to wake him up....he will lure you in and he will kill you, cause he should act and look evil and dangerous, it's his nature.

Smaug.jpeg

With that kind of pitch, all the more reason to cancel.

Where is the IAAPA?
How many vendors go?

We don't know that. They were asked for a quote for 86 machines. Big difference.

Great to hear that someone with skin in the game will be there. Looking forward to seeing pics and your thoughts on the version of the game presented there.

Road trip?

Not at all, even though prices are pretty crazy I tend to look at relative value. And, relatively speaking, I think Smaug does much more than Stern's toys.

Of all Stern's LE's, I was considering STLE due to its sound, the way it looks, plays and its lighting effects, its toys were a detractor.

Keep believing that.

Hmmm, I think the layout looks awesome. A little vanilla granted, but awesome. It's basically a fan like AFM, MM, MB but in a widebody with a kickback, drops, spinners, pop-ups, and a captive ball. What's not to like?

Sterns toys like MET hammer that puts the ball under the playfield or like ac/dc lower playfield I like my ST pro a lot but feel the LE has no bang for the buck.

The ship doesn't shoot the ball at you, the kicker on the playfield shoots the ball at you, unlike the Borg ship on STTNG that actually shoots the ball at you.

I like Hulk, but what does he do? Raises his arms and turns. His mouth does not move.

Did you see the short game over video of Smaug. His mouth was perfectly in sync with the words, they weren't just randomly flapping. It really added to the effect.

I wondered why Smaug didn't have teeth and then I saw a photo of the real Smaug when his mouth is closed. No teeth show and the one in the game looks good compared to this. Makes sense that the mouth won't close if it's loaded with teeth.

I will withhold judgement until I see the finished product because I think filling in the missing stuff might make a world of difference.

I thought the MET hammer was a very cool idea when I first saw it revealed. But in practice I didn't like it so much because the way it was timed and synced to the sound did not bring home the effect of it pounding the ball into the playfield. It also blocked my view of the shot to Sparky from the right flipper.

It's been a while since I've played it so they may have improved the choreography.

I thought the lower playfield on AC/DC wasn't much fun and a waste the way it was used. Though that may have also changed with more recent code. Love the Bell though.

Just to clarify if I gave the wrong impression. I don't have a TH on order so no skin in the game.

IAAPA is an incredible amusements vendors show. Pinball vendors go, but that is just a fart in a windstorm compared to the full magnitude of the show itself. It is many acres both inside and outside. It is really meant to be a trade show but every day Joe's can get in on Thursday and Friday for a reasonable fee if you don't have friends who are insiders. Here is my video from a couple of years ago. Wow! Its over 5000 views!:

IAAPA runs Monday-Friday and Free Play Florida is just moments away in Orlando for the weekend! Come for both!!

www.freeplayflorida.com

Edit: Skip to about 5:45 of the video

That is the greatest bowling alley I've ever seen!!!!

Hypothetically, (because I know Jack said he is under contract to deliver the game by Dec 17th ), how many of you would trade another year of delay, in order to have an actual full dragon and mountain?

This is what it comes down to time. If the game needs to be out by Dec 17th not much will change. I would much rather have a delay and better game. I am not confident that all of my concerns about hobbit can be addressed in the given time frame, sucks because I was really looking forward to this game.

If possible I would much rather have it delayed as long as possible to get it right.

TH needs far more than those changes for me to ever purchase one.

IAAPA is in less than one month. All those who are waiting until then for a final opinion should reduce their expectations.

I don't think it'll take a year to get this right. We're talking about one feature that could easily be designed and implemented in 3 to 4 weeks. Approvals may be the bottleneck. I doubt a major redesign is called for, some really good suggestions on improving the cosmetics will satiate the majority of naysayers.

...and I think most are already done. What was at expo wasn't final. Several items were missing.

This is the rationalization I have also come to. . .

I was referring to giving Smaug a makeover. The rock has got to go. See my suggestion a couple pages back to replace it with a gold pile with the smaugs sleeping eye sticking out. Upon activation it lights up to simulate waking then rotating to reveal and improved smaug head with lit eyes like in the movie.

There is no doubt in my mind we will see moving targets with the individual drop target controls

I am under the impression that there are a couple of magnets under the playfield that also were not active at Expo. Can anyone confirm?

Who knows whats really going on with this game. They very well could have intentionally left parts off the game because itis part of the third film or they could have all the moldings made but not fully ready in time for expo. Its all really just a guess. They very well could have a fully completed machine at jjp and Jack wanted to get the customers reaction to the game to decide what things they could scrap to save money if everyone liked it. You just dont really know whats spin or not.

Bummer. I need to take the weekend off after Thanksgiving. No way I can take two weekends : (

you can totally see them in abe's pics, but go ahead and ask until your blue in the face as no one cares to comment.

Thanks. That's what I thought. I'm sure I'll hear about them eventually.

It looks like there are a couple of magnets, but they're at the top of the playfield. I would guess they are used to snag a ball from an orbit shot and either drop it into the Smaug area or the pop bumper area.

This would have been a great idea. Especially if you could shoot the ball in the front doors then reveal Smaug. I love the makeshift mockup pic. That made me laugh. But still this is already a better idea that what i've seen implemented first hand. Maybe the games not physically done yet.....but if that's the case. It's a VERY bad move for JJP to reveal something only half assed.

Back when WOZ was revealed half assed, it was a different ballgame. There really wasn't any competition and the colors and changing LED's were new and refreshing. made It look above and beyond what else was available, even if it did play like shit. But now, he can't get away with that. Too much other stuff that is above and beyond being released. The days of WoWing people with a half ready game are over. If anything, sales are going to drop off and money is going to the better presented games. Might have worked for WOZ, but it's giving to your own pooper here.

A year? No way. 3-4 months? Absolutely.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, liver lip.

Everyone is currently talking about how disappointing the game currently appears (understandably). The really pathetic thing is that nobody is overly disgusted by the annoucement of a new edition. The fact that people actually seem relieved they can "upgrade" to the SE is ludicrous. People are being incredibly gullible!!! There is absolute zero difference to the SE. Not even ONE PENNY more in BOM cost. Not a single penny!! Am I wrong? You just had your "limited edition" dilluted and you are excited about it? Ummm, why? lol ... it's insane what just happened but because the game istelf is so underwhelming that discussion is top priority right now. Helllllo ... you just got SCREWED no matter what happens! Yay!

How did anyone get screwed? The dragon art is better. If anyone thought that a 1500 piece LE was EVER going to appreciate then they need their head checked. For anyone in its the same price. For anyone not in...well, stick with the LE because you're right there isn't any extra "value" there. Zero people got "screwed".