If I was JJ I would do a publication of what to do or not be in the playfield, the software can always be improved with an update, I'm not worried about this but the hardware can not be changed. each of us could assess whether or not purchase in relation to the selling price, would be most honest to anyone feeling cheated,

That's why I am still in, that and the room for mods.

Coast to Coast pinball podcast states that the pre alpha code was in some ways is more complete than the TWD code that is loose out on the streets. What hype? More like reality. DP arrived, concurred, wowed the crowd, and left with all our money.

How many TBL pre orders got cancelled this weekend? 'Crickets....'. You want hype...try knocking on the doors of SkitB, Jpop, Stern, or JJP and see what they have to say... 'Crickets".

http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/episode-113-expo-2014-day-1_28797

skip to the 26 minute mark.

First of all, who wants to pay $7500+ for a trainwreck that needs to be salvaged by the code when JJP just could and should deliver an overall great game? Ridiculous.

You say LOTR and TH are both bland. I disaggree. LOTR looks way more interesting than TH. Even if you don't like the art you gotta admit it all fits together great. The sword ramp and the center ramp with the ring are simple but very efficient design choices, that together with the other stuff convey theme perfectly well. POTD is lame, but together with the two towers and the Balrog there's still enough going on in the toy department. The game makes you wanna play it.

TH on the other hand has not such intrigue:
* Smaug is not living up to the hype: no interaction on a mechanical level. And although the figure itself doesn't look bad it's nothing special. It wouldn't be an issue if the rest of the table could compensate for that.
* The only innovation are the individual drop targets. They are kinda nice, sure... they're just not THAT nice.
* There's a lot going on UNDER the playfield. Much of it doesn't show. So nothing on the PF looks particularly new, cool or special.
* There's nothing that ties the different elements of the table together. Smaug body? Mountain? Bag End? There's much room for improvement, literally.
* So far the flow of the game seems ok, not great. Half of the center shots don't make it up the ramp and the upper right flipper is completely useless.

I don't understand how JJP could've believed we'd be blown away by this. Show me convincing vids and pics and I will be happy to give TH a chance. But excuses and the smoke screen of upcoming code don't cut it.

Why do you have to hate on the Hobbit so much, R U buying one? I can see that your getting TBL and I'm a little nervous that you might do more than just play it, it looks good but it isn't some mind blowing new never seen before masterpiece. Not to bash it but I don't see anything special, that bowling alley will get boring real quick as will the call outs, I'm glad you like it so go back to TBL threads and praise it all you want I don't care about the comparisons anymore.

I don't hate anything: here is my main rant a few posts prior to this page.... I want all of us Pinheads to be happy instead of feeling dirty, lied to, and cheated. Reading forum posts here and watching the live steam presentations I don't think the majority pre order folks left the Expo feeling all that great about what they saw. But, I was not there...so what do I know?

I suppose I must be the only one that wants rails instead of pegs, code that does not take 12 months + to be completed, preorder games that won't take 36 months+ to ship, distributors who will offer full pre order refunds, and a color display instead of red dots on a $8K LE model. I could keep bitching, but instead I will continue to give my money to support ppl like Dutch Pinball and Pinsiders who produce kick ass toys, mods and other quality products.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/smaug-toy-revealed/page/15#post-1978762

Mods? You're kidding, right??

I understand but all the more reason to not bash it, especially if your not even on the pre-order list for TH. I mean I can cancel anytime via my distributor and if the final product is not to my liking I don't lose squat some guys are very nervous I don't think they should be but why add to the fire. Listen I know this site is for our opinions but why make it like your out when your were never in.

You cannot cancel the hobbit, this is the problem and why the pre pay model us completely broken

I beg to differ, you can but it would be premature to do so based on an incomplete demo. I think the game will rock but there are a couple things that can be addressed before it hits the assembly line.

Really, what distributor won't refund your money? That is not the policy anywhere I know of.

Peekaboo Smaug stinks. It could have been way better and to blame it all on the licensor is disingenuous and convenient.

For me I think of this episode: Shut the sock up Smog!

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/eqck5t/workaholics-sock-puppets

Given the non-ability to have Smaug truly interact with the ball I wonder why they didn't go back to the model of having an upper playfield with a flipper up in that corner like with WOZ?

They could have put some stand-up targets to spell LOCK and a little gated lock hole to open up and capture the ball. The the dragon toy could have sat above that bank like the car in Mustang, but move it's head and speak while the upper playfield is active. It seems like something along those lines would have been much more interesting.

I think some people who are comparing this to LOTR need a quick reminder of how amazing that game is. Not only is it super fun to play, but the play field is a thing of beauty. Perfectly captures the 3 films and there's so much interesting stuff to look at. Compare anything we've seen of The Hobbit to these images. Look how complete and well detailed the back of the play field is! And that flow...everything centered around the huge center ring and Balrog.

And guys remember, it's not the number of modes that makes a game good, it's how fun each mode is. I'd rather play 15 fun modes than have 45 modes of ho hum gameplay. Lastly, simplicity = fun. LOTR really invites you in because you know exactly what you have to do at all times, the callouts are perfect, and the goals / rule set are easy to follow. That's why it's considered one of the best pins ever made. Hard to think The Hobbit will be high up on the list.

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i guess anyone with a lotr can rejoice, they just appreciated 500$ since expo

Yes, by putting a ColorDMD in it.

I'm skipping the Hobbit because in order for me to pay the extra money and wait the extra time for it, the game would have to blow me away. It does not, unfortunately.

I have played Star Trek a few times, and really enjoyed that pin. And that was before the 1.5 release.

I have zero interest in Metallica (theme) or TWD (theme and looks sloooooooow).

We can talk all day about why they didn't do 'x,y, or z'. But the whole thing smacks of expense cutting to me. What they did was the least they could do and still have a Smaug feature, IMO.

I'm not getting an LE. I'm getting the Premium.

And yes, there is value in the Premium for me over the Pro. Lots of value.

A few more to show where the bar is at for the Middle Earth universe.

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Hazoff,
You are talking tons of shit brother . We are usually on the same page but not this time and only for one major reason. I went there. I went planning on buying the hobbit . It's as bad as everyone else is saying and the TWD will be a hit for routers as the theme will draw plays but will be resold faster than ST by player/ collectors.
We went , we played and we are not saying these things to f with people. It's the general consensus .

Totally agree with this, maybe this pin had to have more margin/profit in it to recoup Woz expense? Who knows.

One would think that with Pat Lawlor on the team, he could have pitched in and created something Rudy/RS like, but then again, its the license right?

I don't buy the license excuse at all. Why would they NOT want to make the most amazing game?

It's not the license. Smaug didn't have to eat balls, spit balls, or be bashed to be bad ass. And I'm not even buying the premise that those actions were show stoppers.

Someone cut the checkbook off on the Smaug toy. Period. No way you can convince me this was the best idea they had that would pass licensing.

How many plays does that LOTR have on it?

When you are standing in front of lotr, and look at the playfield when the music starts. Ready to plunge....

That playfield just sucks you into middle earth. It is that good.

I hope the hobbit does that to me again.

I started a years long saving plan and this was my target. But..... Not sure anymore. If i buy a pin in my live, it will be only one and it has to be perfect. In everything but music, cause that i can change.

Ps. Music and sound is awesome what i heard so far.

I realize people want this game to be great. But honestly the only ones I see seriously defending it weren't at Expo. And the harshest criticism for the most part comes from people who were. Who saw it in person, flipped it, watched others play, heard it, etc etc.

I mentioned this in another post somewhere, but I talked with a lot of Pinsiders at Expo who saw my name tag and came over to say hello. Just about everyone asked what I thought of Hobbit and gave their impression. It was clear pretty quickly that the show floor was not being kind to the game.

Everyone is of course seeing things through the lens of their own opinions and experience, and if you really like it that's totally cool with me. But I feel like as someone who was there I should share my honest thoughts for people who couldn't make it. I wish I could say it ruled, because I would be really happy to do that. Jack even made a Smaug cabinet just for me! But the magic wasn't there.

I can't believe I'm pre-ordering TBL, it's really not my style to pay that much, let alone pre-order. But man, they had every move just nailed. Their game was an alpha too, not done. But the way everything was done right, and the faith I have now in the company after spending time with Phil makes it feel right. If Jack could do that I'd be in his camp all day. It's not happening here.

Hopefully JJP keeps rolling and we see Pat's game and all this "license handcuffed us!" stuff goes out the window and we see the power of a fully operational battlestation.

I don't feel that way, I played some TWD and really enjoyed it, my STLE isn't going anywhere so lets agree to disagree and I can appreciate people being disappointed with first looks and plays on The Hobbit but come on man as if this hasn't happened before, many times in fact then a complete reversal, I just feel bad for the guys that are locked in they don't want to hear its a piece of crap over and over from pinsiders who played a game or 2, would you? I said already I have the option to back out whenever I want so it doesn't matter to me but Jesus lets give JJP a chance to respond and wait till these games are fully tested.

Fair enough.

LOTR is bland overall. Only because it's layout has been done a million times before. it's nothing special. There isn't really any awesome toy in it. No gimmicks really. Just a typical pattern game, with some low key little toys in it. But the software is where that game really shines. If it wasn't for the overly complex and advanced software system, the game would not be anywhere near as popular as it is. It saved that game bigtime. Otherwise it would have just been another 24, CSI, ect.....

LOTR is my 5th favorite game of all time, but i know where it's strengths are and weaknesses. Overall it comes together well, but the software is the main element that binds the whole thing together.

Nice, but please close the shades on that window that LOTR is too nice to ruin with UV rays...and no it doesn't need to be sunny for the decal to fade.

LOTR has a great layout. The left ramp is very nice to hit. The middle jump ramp is great and has the eye and a great winding exit. The balrog is a good bash toy and is cleverly hidden away. The tower shot is great. The path of the dead VUK is great and has multiple openings that change depending on mode. the sword ball lock ramp is cool. The shot through hole is cool also.

Me too...I'm going to get $hit on by all the TBL fans, but I think that bowling alley is going to suck after playing it 50 times. '$' pun intended.

Did you play it at Expo?

It does, but many shots are clunky on LOTR. It plays like a white wood to me. Software saved that game along with sound/music. I'm hoping TH doesn't play like a white wood but I know the software and sounds/music will at least rock! Worst case...it's in the same camp as LOTR.

I wonder about that myself. Wouldn't be surprised if it did.

No...I didn't. I could very well be wrong, but it just seems like it would get boring to me. FWIW, I hate ACDCs mini playfield and that stupid Congo one too. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. Everything else seemed pretty awesome on TBL though I think they are being cut more slack than Stern or JJP gets. Rolling rug broke down, car crash wall broke, software crashed a few times (due to too many sounds getting played at once?)...wolves would be picking the bones clean of Stern or JJP if that happened to them.

They were pre production games. Shit happens on unfinished games, people all know that. From any company. That's one thing you get from a show, people bash on them games, you see how they hold up. You tweak and adjust. They're still running Windows, not even on Linux yet. So it's not just the rules software that isn't done.

And yet, for alpha level games they were really damn sweet. And the bowling mech is very cool, I didn't realize how steep it was until I saw it in person, that part took me by surprise.

Yes, I get that...but still lots of people didn't get that when WOZ was first being shown for example. WOZ was torn up for stupid little crap like we saw here with TBL. It's a love fest, dude! Not that that's a bad thing though. I like all the positivity for once on a game.

What does their software stack look like? I'm genuinely curious what production level hardware / software combination can be ported that easily? We used to do arduino stuff at my last job that you could switch up pretty easy, but it wasn't exactly built to be long term, so my old co workers might be interested in their solution.

I'm just going to buy a WOZ. None of these pins is going to be available for ages, and it seems JJP may never reach the bang of their debut album again. I can walk in off the street and just buy one now. Like Rob says, if some of these were available right now I would be in, but my 2015 $ allocation is going to WOZ.

Have to say that TH really makes me appreciate my WOZ! I gave it a good clean yesterday and played a while on it beautiful, and fun, pin!

I wonder if they will be able to make it harder each time you get to bowl? That would keep it fresh. Or at the very least second time you only get 1 ball.

So why don't you head on over to a TBL thread and discuss this for a bit? In case you didn't notice, this thread is for bashing Smaug (even though WB doesn't allow it).

I was in on Hobbit and I am out now, I am gonna see what the final game looks like and then decide. I love my LotR and would love to put a Hobbit next to it but not till I see a finished product and it has to look better then the vids I saw from Expo. It looks nothing like the pre production WOZ games we all played. I have had my WOZLE for a year this Halloween and its still amazing and super fun, I actually played it tonight for a good 2 hours and had a blast on it. Fingers Crossed that JJP figures it out with Hobbit because I would love to pick one up but not right now. Didn't Jack say that the Hobbit was supposed to make WOZ look like there worst game? IMO WOZ still looks amazing and Hobbit just looks Meh, One thing I am wondering from everyone that was at expo are the continuing drop targets really as noisy as they sound in the videos? That in itself would drive me insane. Fingers Crossed that JJP has a lot more in store for Hobbit and it ends up amazing cuz if it does I am in for sure.

Right now I am really leaning towards a AlienLE.

Joe(acejedi)

Yes we know, you have a pin. Way to shoehorn your pics into a debate about "The Hobbit".