(Topic ID: 133017)

SM vs TWD Pro

By nicoga3000

8 years ago


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#1 8 years ago

I think the code on TWD has gotten to a point where this question can be asked now. HUGE wall of text coming.

With all these mumblings of SM VE, I feel like the game is finally in my budget. I don't care if the rumors are true or not, but that has helped put the game in my "OK to purchase" territory. Here's a list of my pros and cons of each title (of course entirely subjective). I'm hoping those with both games (or a bunch of time on each) can weigh in.

Please note - this is not a SM VE thread. This isn't a "just buy TWD because it's available now". If SM VE were to be announced today, my questions would still remain.

============

SM Pros

Wonderful flow - considered one of the best flow games out there
Obvious mode progression - the inserts make it very obvious how close you are to the wizard mode, although it's NOT as obvious how to start/finish these modes when you're playing (at least not immediately)
Great stacking - one of the most rewarding things ever is to go from a few million to 50m because you had one sick crazy stack session
Highly competitive - I don't think it's a one ball game like POTC, but I could be wrong
Doc Ock and Sandman - I really love the TRON reveal and Doc Ock modes
Theme - very family friendly and recognizable
Code - proven and overall very enjoyable

SM Cons

Dots - "realistic" dots are kind of hit or miss
Skewed playfield - not a real con, but ~2/3 of the game is fit in the back chunk of the playfield
Depth - one of my more major issues...The game gets played the exact same way every time I watch a tourney. There doesn't appear to be a lot of variation on the best way to play this game. Kind of contradicts the above Pro, but for a home environment, I have to comment.

============
============

TWD Pros

Unique layout - not like anything else I can really put my finger on
Playfield is full - kind of like my "not really a con" above, but there appears to be more shots within the entire field
Bash toy - I love bash toys! The well walker reminds of Wolverine, but not as in you face or playfield inhibiting. Also the Prison is kind of awesome.
Theme - I don't like the show, but I enjoyed the first 100-110 issues of the comic. It got a bit "samey" after a while, but I love zombies.
Highly competitive - it's fresh, it's new, it's a Stern. That means it will be in all the coming Sternaments (Sternoments?). That ALSO means it will be picked apart like mad (which is a good thing).
Dots - I love the classic non-show/movie dot thing.

TWD Cons

Pro vs Premium/LE - the ultimate debate. Unless I can get a Premium for $5500 or less, I have to go Pro on this one. With the additional features on the Premium/LE (2nd magnet, bicycle girl ramp, crossbow, bombs, fishtank, Woodbury drop), I am a bit concerned with what's "missing".
Sound - I know an LE replacement is in the works, but I don't think the Pro has one yet. I don't care about the show, but the voices could use some fine tuning.
Progression - I have played an LE on location a bunch and enjoyed it. This was a few months ago before major code updates. I wasn't really sure how my progression towards the wizard mode was at the time, and I really like that progression mechanic of games.
Theme - zombies, blood and guts. Not the most kid/family friendly theme. It's a pro to me, but it could be a con to visitors. How violent is it really on the DMD?
Depth - is the game shallow? Again, I haven't played enough of the Pro OR Premium/LE to make that call. From what I've seen in tourney play, the approach seems a lot more organic than something like SM, but it could have just been because people didn't really know the game yet.

============

Comments!

My assessment of the two games is based on ~20-30 games on each. I enjoy games with pretty obvious "progression" mechanics, but it's not a must have thing. My main concern with SM is something I've noticed and have read before - it's somewhat straightforward. It's not a fact as much as it's an observation. I imagine it can be played towards the wizard mode, but I've not seen that approach taken ever, so I don't know what that "looks like".

I've not played a TWD Pro, so the differences are hard for me to weigh in on. Indiana is dry in terms of location pinball - the best place to play is Mainstreet Amusements. The problem (first world problems, mirite?) is that he has Premium/LE titles...It's hard to really get a fair assessment of Pro games because of this. The art and theme of this are a bit of a turnoff from a youth perspective, but at the same time, I don't know how bad it REALLY is. MET drops f-bombs and such, but many would consider TWD to be a more mature game than MET.

The other big question in my mind for TWD (outside of the Premium/LE debate) is how the game plays in a home environment from a depth and progression standpoint. I love how unique and interesting the layout is - asymmetric layouts are fun. I also love how the game appears to take advantage of the playfield and forces you to shoot all over it - also bash toys. But in the games I've played on TWD LE, I am not entirely sure what I was doing. Mind you, this was on a very low code version, so things may have changed a LOT. The new code seems to have people dancing for joy, and that's a nice change of pace for this title.

I could go on and on and on regarding my thoughts towards each and argue out loud like a crazy person. Instead, I'd love to get some opinions of you guys and which you like and why. Or maybe why you DON'T like certain aspects/features of one title or another. I do appreciate it.

Also, there is no tl;dr version of this - there's a lot to digest in my post.

#2 8 years ago

Own both and your assessment is really good for only having limited play.

Personally, it's easily TWD for me. The code is already a lot deeper and will get even better. It's also a much harder game. SM isn't as bad as LOTR but can have long ball times. TWD is more like MET. Very unforgiving with a bigger dose of luck. And TWD has great stacking opportunities, involving more strategy than SM.

You can't go wrong. Pretty different games so just depends on your mood.

#3 8 years ago

I admire your balls to answer this. I also feel TWD is a superior game, so unique and different feeling. We WILL get flamed due to the love SM receives, but love me some TWD.

Edit: "admire your balls" ha-ha !!

Quoted from luckymoey:

Own both and your assessment is really good for only having limited play.
Personally, it's easily TWD for me. The code is already a lot deeper and will get even better. It's also a much harder game. SM isn't as bad as LOTR but can have long ball times. TWD is more like MET. Very unforgiving with a bigger dose of luck. And TWD has great stacking opportunities, involving more strategy than SM.
You can't go wrong. Pretty different games so just depends on your mood.

#4 8 years ago

I love SM a lot. Game will probably never leave.
With saying that, I have the same feelings about my TWD pro. It just becoming a go to game, probably because it is new. I like that it is not your typical flow game but still feels like one with how fast it plays. I like the bash toys on the game. Really a keeper for me after the last code update.

#5 8 years ago

I'm not going to tell you what to get or what is better. Both games rate well and have their fans. It comes down to personal preferences and it sounds like you'd enjoy both. Some good comparison and contrasting in earlier posts. I'm interested in reading more of that.

I can give you some info on TWD from ownership of it which may help and can clear up some of your TWD questions.
'
'

If you like the layout and playfield of TWD you should only enjoy it more and more as you play it. Many people who don't like TWD machine complain about the layout and playfield.

Pro vs Prem/LE is an endless debate no matter which title. People have been happy with both TWD machines. Typically if one can justify the added expense of the Prem/LE, people report appreciating the upgrades and the overall machine. Note the Prem/LE also has additional coding including zombie bombs in game play which are unique features (and lots liking it). Some people complained on pinside about a crazy amount of STDMs on the Pro, not so much the Prem/LE. By many owner accounts the problems were traced to set-up and levelling issues and it isn't talked about much any more on the forum so I assume it was addressed by that fix.

The LE has more generic zombie theme art which has certain merits (a more broad appeal and less tied to a specific time period or aspect of the genre), and which you may prefer based on your feedback of the show. It appeals to me for example.

Lyman is coding TWD and this is a strong point of the machine. Great great coding. There is a lot to shoot at and this has been coded into the game in many excellent ways. The game is deep deep deep on these machines (various modes, goals, progression options, stacking, etc). Details can be found in a few of the main TWD threads here. And with more recent updates scoring appears to be tweaked and balanced, so now there are multiple approaches and strategies that can be taken in playing the pin to get high scoring. This lends to variety in game to game play. You can go from a 5 million score shot to a 150 million score shot easily, and much higher as well.

I'm intrigued by the way TWD plays differently in each code update. It is noticeable. I have kept a copy of earlier coding and am planning to eventually change up the game from time to time to keep it fresh with the different coding options.

Both the Pro and LE have alternate sound replacement options based on the TV show clips, and there are now clean and adult versions as well. The early complaints and some continued complaints about the dialog clips in the machine are a non issue now, and almost infinite options and set-up are available.

Theme is a personal choice. It is an adult theme, but for many that is a plus. It is rare as one of the most adult/mature-themed machines ever made. Personally, I've had no problems with a 7 year old around it here.

Almost everyone finds the DMD animations really cool. Many report the DMD art is a highlight of the pin. The DMD art is pretty violent though too if you are sensitive to that. I've never had a problem with this with youth, but again it is personal and subjective.

The TWD machine shines imo in home use. The sound experience is easier to enjoy and excellent on the machine, short games don't cost money, and one can play the game a lot more to get to know it and the game play / progression / modes.

One interesting appeal on the TWD that others have mentioned before that I agree with, is that it has great just-one-more-game appeal. If that is the same for you, then you should have noticed that already. It is challenging and you end up with good games and bad games on it. Sometime you can do no wrong, sometimes you can do no right. All pushing you to just try-one-more game.

#6 8 years ago

Thanks for the replies so far guys. Really appreciate it.

And thank you dzoomer for the very detailed reply! I did read a lot about the SDTM issues, but the location LE I played did not run into this in the least bit. Also had a blast shooting the Well Walker and Prison. Also those ramps are just fantastic - I love unique ramps!

The Premium/LE features are really fascinating to me. The crossbow is kind of hit or miss for me, but the 3rd bash toy (Bicycle Girl) is pretty awesome. The Fishtank is fancy, and that Woodbury drop is cool. I've got some quotes for a Pro and a Premium, and I'm tempted to save a little more cash and try and go for a Premium if I can. I am starting to think it would be worth it. The fact of the matter is, SM is a really fun game, but the layout alone on TWD is drawing me in more and more.

#7 8 years ago

TWD LE>SM>TWD Pro

If you are deciding between TWD Pro or SM, get SM. If you are deciding between TWD Premium or SM, get TWD Premium. If you are deciding between all three, still get TWD Premium.

#8 8 years ago
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:

If you are deciding between all three, still get TWD Premium.

This made me laugh for some reason.

I'm just waiting for a call back from JJ @ GEX to make my decision.

#9 8 years ago

Thought's from a guy who just bought SM and sold TWD 2 weeks later. I do like my games fast with flow, do not like stop and go. Also love Steve Ritchie games. As with TWD sale I purchased a Star Trek PRO.

I bought TWD pro NIB when it was released, love the theme and the unique layout, actually sold my AC/DC premium to fund the machine and was going to get a Premium until stern announced no Premiums where going to be made, and I was not spending the extra for an LE. So I decided to go pro instead. When stern announced the Premium was getting made, I actually had a buyer lined up for the Pro so I could upgrade. Went and played the Premium before making the order. After already owning the pro for a few months, I did not like the way the premium felt one bit. The left ramp is horrible, I do not care what any LE/Premium owner says, it is terrible design and the ball just jumps/misses/rattles, and airballs from the left ramp way to much for my liking. The pro left ramp is nice a smooth everytime. The other extra's did not matter much to me either. I like the feel of the bicycle girl ramp instead of the bash toy for scoring. Crossbow cool toy but I can use my flipper just as well. Zombie head on the ramp, I bought had the laseriffic tank installed and you can also get the topper which is interactive with the game as well. Magnet in front of well walker just add more randomness to a game that is already very random. Drop target, too close to the flippers to be a hard shot are mean much to me. Spinner, not sure it does much for me either. The new bombs in the Prem/LE seems like a neat idea but it would fell like it was just making modes easier to achieve rather then shooting for you shots. For me on this title its Pro is the bang for the buck unless there is something you really thing 2k extra is worth to you.

Now as far a game play. You can not walk up to the game a know what is going on unless you read some rules or have someone telling you what to do. Nothing is marked on the playfield/dmd on what to hit or shoot for, most the time just look for the flashing arrow while in a mode. When you hit the drops it says dead features are lit. Most people ask me what the dead features are. Everyone always asking how do I get multi-kills? And what are they for. While the Prison multi-ball is easy to explain, Well Walker lights up the inserts the first time and then just flash's while you are trying to start, so unless you are watching the DMD you have no clue how many more hits it will take to start Well Walker multi-ball. While all the modes score different, I almost felt most of them where the same thing with a little tweak. Skill shot is neat but really easy to me. I like the blood bath the best, its fun to stack that and drop the targets again and again for ball save/add a ball.

The game does play fast, there are no scoops to stop the ball so the ball is always moving or on a magnet, or in the shooter lane, or in the pops. This does not mean the game flows great, as there are only 3 shoots that get the ball right back to your flipper, left ramp, right ramp, right loop (which is the toughest shot on the game).

About TWD STDM, ok the prison magnet does it, it will sometimes just drop it with no movement and goes down the middle. This you would hope will be fixed in code update, you can press both flippers to abort animations and most the time the magnet will pulse and rattle the ball around, and sometimes STDM as it is random at that point so people that complain about that should not own a game with a magnet. Coming out of the pop's sometimes will drain STDM, changing the post to a cliffy post helped mine alot and if the ball hits the post it bounces to the left flipper or sling. If it don't hit the post it has a chance to go STDM so be ready for a nudge, and ready to say some bad words. It is pinball these games are made to take your dollars as quickly as they can, I understand that so STDM don't bug me as much as others.

Stock sound is ok, I always used the updated code with voice actors, which is much better, but does feel a little shallow cause of the lack of any custom sound from the actors, which would be awesome.

Dots are very good, some of the best I have seen, and at times can be pretty graphical with zombie heads exploding from shotguns and all.

As for Spiderman, I have only had it for like 10 days so I can not give you much insight on it. As it is still honey moon stage so still like is the same as the day I brought it home, good theme, nice flow, pretty straight foward ruleset, sound is ok, dots are not the best IMO.

In no way do I think TWD is a bad game. It just was not the game for me, and most of my games don't last more then 2 years anyways, I like to keep is fresh, Metallica is bolted to the floor and will not leave.

Hopefully some of this information will help you make a more informed decision. Just hard a hard time myself deciding to add Star Trek Pro since I just got Spiderman. Decided to go for it, will be nice to have side by side and decide which I like better, when GOT is out one of them will be out as well.

Chris

#10 8 years ago
Quoted from Leachdude:

The left ramp is horrible, I do not care what any LE/Premium owner says, it is terrible design and the ball just jumps/misses/rattles, and airballs from the left ramp way to much for my liking. The pro left ramp is nice a smooth everytime. The other extra's did not matter much to me either. I like the feel of the bicycle girl ramp instead of the bash toy for scoring. Crossbow cool toy but I can use my flipper just as well. Zombie head on the ramp, I bought had the laseriffic tank installed and you can also get the topper which is interactive with the game as well. Magnet in front of well walker just add more randomness to a game that is already very random. Drop target, too close to the flippers to be a hard shot are mean much to me. Spinner, not sure it does much for me either. The new bombs in the Prem/LE seems like a neat idea but it would fell like it was just making modes easier to achieve rather then shooting for you shots. For me on this title its Pro is the bang for the buck unless there is something you really thing 2k extra is worth to you.
Now as far a game play.

Well thought out response but there are a few things i'd point out. My premium Left ramp was horrible like yours till I got in there and started tweaking it. Filed down the hex spacers so the transition is smooth & The ramp kit makes it to where I no longer get airballs off the left ramp & good shots travel smoothly around the ramp. Maybe not Pro version smooth but they make it with no problem at all.

The Drop target on the Premium which protects the Woodbury shot is a great add on as it prevents the slings from just randomly putting the ball into there when nothing of value is ready. The price difference for my premium was $1500 over a pro & I feel it was worth it for the color changers, spinners, added drop target & the Bombs which add a major game play difference and adds a whole new level of strategy. The crossbow isnt a major upgrade to me so that isnt a game changer.

Oh and to add one last thing....Trading out a Lyman coded game for ST??? Horrible!!!!

#11 8 years ago

You've picked 2 (or 3) excellent games - can't go wrong on any of these IMO. I like TWD Premium/LE the best. I could see getting a better price on a TWD Pro vs SM, and the TWD Premium will most likely cost the most. SM is a more "family friendly" theme, so if you're married and/or have kids, that could be a consideration.

Most of your comments are pretty accurate, I'll just highlight some key points IMO...

- TWD has short ball times, SM has long ball times
- TWD is brutal, with tight shots - SM is easier (easier *feels* more flowing)
- TWD is more immersive in "mood" played in a dark room
- Both are plenty deep - excellent rules
- SM is a 3 flipper game, TWD Premium has more interactive toys - and more bashing

Again, both are great games, but very different. To sum up my opinion...
- BOTH are great
- TWD - Scary Theme / Immersive / Short Brutal games (it's a battle!)
- SM - Family Theme / Fun / Long "flow" games (sometimes the games are too long, depending on your skill)

1 week later
#12 8 years ago

Bumping this one last time for some new info.

I was given prices on TWD Pro, TWD Premium and have a few SM options from guys I've been in touch with. It boils down to this...

I can get a TWD Pro for a good price delivered. For ~$400 more, I can get a SM. For $1600 more than the Pro, I can get a TWD Premium. I am trying really hard to justify the features of the Premium for $1600. Extra bash toys are pretty awesome...However, if I DID get the Pro, that would leave me some money on the table to start putting towards buying a SM later.

Outside of the cost difference, my only other concern between both TWD and SM are the depth.

I've been reading posts and watching videos of both games and was hoping to get just a little more thought on the depth of the two games from both a scoring and playing (home use) environment. I don't often have friends over to play, so I am trying to weigh the two games from a "depth" perspective.

Any final thoughts would be wonderful. I am hoping to finalize this purchase this week.

#13 8 years ago

I've been having a ton of fun with my pro, especially after the last few code updates, they really made the game a lot more enjoyable. I agree with most of what has been said here. TWD works best at home. It's challenging and very hard to stop playing (on free play) once you get started. No other machine has had me wanting to keep going for "just one more game" like TWD. Honestly, the Pro is great on its own. You'll probably have more fun putting 1600 toward another machine.

#14 8 years ago

From a "depth" perspective, I pick TWD. 4 Multiballs -> 2 mini wizard modes -> final wizard mode -> 6 stackable game modes -> playfield & shot multipliers -> zombie bombs -> "kill" counter. It's a game that takes a bit to understand, but it's worth it.

#15 8 years ago
Quoted from T7:

From a "depth" perspective, I pick TWD. 4 Multiballs -> 2 mini wizard modes -> final wizard mode -> 6 stackable game modes -> playfield & shot multipliers -> zombie bombs -> "kill" counter. It's a game that takes a bit to understand, but it's worth it.

Do bombs work on the pro? And is the final wizard mode coded in yet?

#16 8 years ago

The final wizard mode is still coming, and there are no bombs on the pro. There is no lockdown bar button on the pro, so there's no way to activate a bomb.

#17 8 years ago
Quoted from T7:

The final wizard mode is still coming, and there are no bombs on the pro. There is no lockdown bar button on the pro, so there's no way to activate a bomb.

I thought 1.28 added something about Walker Bombs in the Pro version?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out if $1600 is worth it or not still, haha.

#18 8 years ago

SM by a mile for me. Due to better layout, better toy integration, better sound package, and a great rule set. TWDs just isn't on the same level for me. That said, I'm glad many are loving TWD because that's what it's all about. People having fun playing pinball.

#19 8 years ago

The Dude Abides is right on. SM by a wide margin.

#20 8 years ago

There are no bombs in Pro currently.
It's a tough call. The premium is definitely better than the pro. I think TWD has a lot more to offer premium vs pro than with many other Stern machines. $1600 is a good chunk of change though. Just wanted to let you know the Pro version is also definitely a blast to play, again and again. I love the stacking modes, and it's a game I feel like I can go for different goals each time I play, I don't always play it the same way with each game. No doubt the premium is even better.

#21 8 years ago

SM is more fun. Anything else you need help deciding?

#22 8 years ago

I enjoy both, but it's TWD for me... especially with the sound mod (which IS available for the Pro). The unique layout, intense music, addicting gameplay, great code (that keeps getting better), and overall ominous tone pull me right in.

If you get a Pro, you'll want to redo the LEDs. The stock LEDs are boring, but other than maybe Tron, there's not a game out there that's more fun to mod.

8 months later
#23 7 years ago

Now that TWD has "finished code" and SMVE is out what do you guys think?

1 week later
#24 7 years ago
Quoted from chubtoad13:

Now that TWD has "finished code" and SMVE is out what do you guys think?

TWD Premium by a mile. SM is the same old game with an art package and new toys (in the same position that they were in on the old version). TWD Premium lighting, spinners, fish tank and drop target make a huge difference IMO.

#25 7 years ago

Twd pro is one of the most watered down sterns comprable to its premium version imo, that will be regretable after a while. Id go spidey- i got rid of my premium twd- it got a little bland for me two bash toys 3 if you count the lift ramp on the prem will get old quick- magnets throw ball in outlanes all the time which sux. Other people will disagree ofcourse but i think you're gonna see a lot of twd for sale in the next year or so- pick it up used.

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