Lotr by a mile. Sm wizard is cool, but all games feel the same.
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The SM AFM argument isn't there. People say this because of the drop target bank. Other than that, there is nothing similar in them other than where the pops are. AFM is a ruthless speed machine. Shooting for the ships means something, and is exciting to do. In SM, sandman just happens in the midst of the other stuff, it's a moot point in play.
WPT and AFM are closer. The open PF and entire rear of WPT is more of less the same as AFM, but again, doesn't play anything alike.
It's like saying LOTR and MB are too similar to be in the same collection, as they are the exact same design. I have all of the ones mentioned, and none play the same.
SM needs more modes. Always the same game, few modes, couple MBs, Battle Royale, couple more modes, couple more MB's, try for Super Hero, always feels the same. Super Hero is very cool. It's deeper than Tron and IM, but much more shallow than LOTR, WPT and TSPP. It's balanced well though for it's play. I just don't care to play the modes though, bonesaw is fun, and the daily news, but meh, start and continue with what you need for SH.
LOTR is f'ing epic in every sense, and every meaning of the word as it applies to a pinball machine. You have to be concerned with winning everything, and knowing what you are doing. Much better rules, as are all Keefer games.
Quoted from Razorbak86:Yeah, yeah... You're obviously biased because you have inside information!
Seriously, though, Atomicboy is a member of a rather exclusive club here on Pinside.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/valinor-club
I aspire to become a member myself... someday.
I got to SDMEWM in TSPP as well Both were huge accomplishments, TSPP likely more. Super Hero is great though, and although I have got there a few times in the relatively short time I have owned SM, I have not beat it, but wow is it long and in depth. SM's staying power for me lies in Super Hero alone.
Quoted from Baiter:My first reaction is that LOTR "games feel the same" to me too, but YMMV.
(This post went long, sorry 'bout that!)
I'm surprised by this. SM is all about just starting everything. LOTR you have to complete everything, well nearly everything. Some days you are playing a modes like nothing and collecting into double digits for gifts, and TABA comes easy, but you are just off with a couple of the movie MB's. Other days you nail the requirements for the MB's, but you are just not beating (not starting, beating) the modes of DTR, and just not collecting gifts.
The stars have to be aligned, and everything firing 100% to have a shot at Valinor (same with SDMEWM in TSPP). With SM, you can literally just coast through the game to the wizard via starting and not really playing, providing you are still having a decently long game. Other than Ock, the other guys literally get completed through normal progression without really having to concentrate on them.
You have to finish the 4 villains, but you are constantly trying to start Ock to combine with something, so he's never an issue. I always shoot for venom when a ball comes down from the right orbit, as I'm sure most do, so he just gets done in the process, and in MB's, goblin and sandman get enough shots to advance. Once I played all the modes, there is maybe one villain I have to finish up to have SH ready to go.
I still think SM is one of Stern's better games (which for a lot of what they made, isn't saying a whole lot still, but none the less, it's within the best), but LOTR, TSPP, ACDC and WPT (yeah, I said it!) are the best. I think SM is right after that though. It's a fun game, with a easy but fun layout. Venom ramp is addictive to shoot for. I expected more excitement out of many aspects of it though. Sandman, when you get to know the game, has to be one of the biggest disappointments for pre-conceived notions, especially if you are familiar with how well AFM used that same (original) design.
Even though I suggest WPT is better, to many, it would not be, as WPT can be a boring ass game if you aren't doing well, and don't know what you are doing. In that sense, if by your own admission you are not a great player, you would probably hate WPT, and love SM for that reason. Once you peel the layers of WPT, it opens up and gets crazy, just like LOTR and TSPP (Keefer designs).
I also get some people don't like the long ball times of LOTR. There is no question LOTR has the longest ball times of any machine ever made. It's a journey, and it's meant to be, and it plays like that, and when you get through it all, or even had a great game, you feel like you just watched a kick ass movie and were part of it.
In the end, getting back to the op, I think you would enjoy both. No question the are both in Stern's best list, and both get tons of love and praise.
So what shots are clunky? I'm having a hard time understanding this. The cave shot is meant to be as it is. I like it, it's not a for sure shot, and I aim for the sides to make a shot that sticks, but it's a unique design, what do you want, another scoop or a saucer that's deflector eventually bends back and doesn't work right?. Chalk that up to the dock ock, which on most machines bricks out many times, as can be just as unreliable.
The back post in LOTR can be an issue, but there is an easy fix to make it 100% in adding a few washers under the PF.
Other than that, the right orbit, inner orbit, ring shot, left ramp, and right ramp all return in flow fashion, and three can be stopped/diverted. SM has both outer orbits, that are closed more than they are open, and three ramp shots. By all counts, there is more flow in LOTR than SM on average.
Quoted from Pimp77:Ok, LOTR clunkiness...on the left you have the Shire saucer, or rather: large gaping cutout/area, not saucer. A shot here will clunk and slop about when hit directly. Also, shots dropping here from the POTD will clunk rather ungracefully off the Arwen plastic and into the area. Next we have the Pippen loop...its not too bad except for the 50% clunk and rejection rate of the saucer at the base of the tower that it dead ends at. Then you have the frodo/ring ramp...if you are lucky, the magnet grabs the ball. Most of the time it doesn't matter because the mode starts anyways, but when you are destroying the ring and you get hosed over and over by that f*cking magnet it gets frustrating. The Galdalf loop is one of the clunkiest shots in pinball which requires no explanation. A direct hit to the Gimli saucer will clunkily bounce through most times robbing you of the award. When you do get it into Gimli it often takes a couple tries of the VUK to get it onto the habitrail. Ugghhh. Aragorn's sword ramp runs into a dead end stand-up target and sloppily rolls down into the sword lock. I do love the look and idea of the sword though. The Merry loop is nice when it sails all the way through the loop, however if its going to the Orthanc tower get ready to hear an awful sounding clunk. Frequently, when being sent to the POTD, the ball ricochets off the SIDE OF THE CABINET and either drops back into Orthanc or falls off the back of the POTD. I owned two LOTRs because I had thought my first one may have been a lemon. Nope. They both had these issues. A lot of these can be tweaked and remedied somewhat, but not all. Anyways, I'd still buy a VE if it came out. The rules and theme are that good!
First off, half of what you are talking about is Stern stuff that needs adjustments. Again, I'll point you to the bricking out of the dock ock saucer. Yes, the rear diverter needs a tweak, the arwen plastic needs the pinbits protectors, but what Stern game in existence doesn't need some form of protectors and tweaks? Unlike b/w, where I have many wpc's they don't have any protectors on them, and don't need them. Stern's are not the same.
As for the shire - LOL?! You're maybe a borg man then, magnet bash toy – with change being the devil? The shire was different, and is a catch for the POTD. It’s made to be unpredictable – that was the design! If it lands in the shire, more souls, if it doesn’t, the return ramp catches. Who wants another boring saucer? The area, with the VUK, is different and unique. Much better and more interesting than its predecessor - the MB creach saucer. Some people hate change and innovation, I get it… Gomez used the MB layout again, as most stern designers seem to “have” to do, I’m guessing due to budget limitations, but with this, and avengers, he has done so many alternatives to the original concept that you have to give him credit for great ideas despite the restrictions.
Other than the typical stern issues on all games that have to be tweaked, mine plays flawlessly, without any issues. I've bent it over, been to Valinor, and intend on being back more times, and it's been one of my least problematic machines all in all come to think of it. The cab hits are a result of the left return ramp, not the POTD. The game is wild, and feels like you're doing battle. I've never played a game that feels like the theme more than LOTR. But clunky? I now second the idea that you need to have played a better version, or refined some of the aspects of it. Too bad you missed out on one of the best machines ever made, mine is never leaving. The game sends the ball, by design airborne from the path of the dead, and into the ring. That’s just cool. Sign me up for more cool stuff like this please.
Again, on my HUO SM I had to dick around forever on the dock ock and it's still not 100%. Still now on slow moving balls, as was the issue in LOTR for the rear diverter, trickle through the blacksuit lock, and come out into the bumpers instead of going into the lock. If LOTR is clunky, well, so is every stern to some degree - it's the nature of their beast.
Anyway, this is a silly conversation. You rated LOTR 28 on your short list, which is ludicrous. LOTR is a show stopping masterpiece, both in design, rules, play, and all around fucking awesomeness.
Another member pm'd me about this when reading. I'm sure I've posted about it before, and there are threads on it, but if you haven't done this yet, this is the rear diverter fix:
Add washers to the mech base screw under the PF closest to the front of the PF, under the plate, this allows the post sit on a angle towards to the front of the PF. This makes the post stick out a little further, and catches the balls that are not hugging the rear orbit guide, which is the problem.
Fast shots stop, it's one that don't have full force, and thus do not hug the rear guide the entire time, as the post is against this. After doing this fix, I maybe get 1 out of 20-30 that don't make it, which for a post stopper on any game is quite good. I usually beat Ents every game since the fix. Love that mode, as it gets you towards the Achilles heal of Valinor – ROTK/souls.
I see more trickle passed in SM, but in all fairness, it's not as much of an issue on SM though for play, as they get counted the same, and I haven't looked into see if the same fix would apply.
I forgot to comment on the rear saucer. This is another typical thing. I think I was getting rejections here and there for this as well at first, but added some dampening foam, and issue gone forever. Again, this is more of an issue on SM, as the saucer is much closer, and takes much harder shots. I'm going to take this apart completely and try a double bend to this deflection piece, as I have in other games. This is expected though, even with b/w games. Such as in IJ and other machines with powerful flippers and a close saucer stop, it's bound to be an ongoing issue, no matter what the fix.
Quoted from jarjarisgod:Ugh... Have to say I'm glad I don't have to live in that world. One of the best aftermarket mods ever!
It seems like it, but it's actually not. Get the protectors, which included a sandwich plastic set for arwen. I can't imagine anyone seeing Valinor without collecting all the souls through a long game needed to start ROTK at least twice. By the third time to ROTK, it's handing out souls in the 700-800 range for drops in there, you can't ignore that for getting to Valinor.
The plastics should have been protected more from factory of course, but you'll never see something such as this from Stern. Hell, they are aware of how bad they cabs wear around the flippers, and for what $0.05 a piece in bulk could easily make plastic half moon flipper button protectors, but don't.
I just think it's cool the ball rolling off that into the shire as well.
Quoted from RobT:Nope. Made shots are clunky. See Pimps post above.
Quoted from Rarehero:Both great but I vote for LOTR. Bought it in 2008 and still have it, still play it.
Also, I'm in the "not clunky" club. Maybe mine is more dialed in or something - but it plays like a charm. For example, very often the ring ramp is off center from the factory....with a little adjustment, mine has played perfectly for years. Shots up the ramp smoothly & goes directly into the ring.
Made shots are clunky?? Mine fly around so fast it can be hard to track them to protect the return at times. Seriouslly guys, we're talking about the same machine here right...? Has a ring, a sword, POTD....?
Before this thread, if you would have asked me what the best flowing games are, I would have said LOTR. I'm at a loss as to what everyone's issues could have been. Inner loop returns with a fury. My post now works almost 100% of the time. The back saucer never rejects - ever now. Again, I count more ongoing flow shots in LOTR, than SM.
The cave shot is what it is, and again, despite somedays it being frustrating, you have to learn you are not shooting for it dead on. I applaud the unique design of this, and the shire, over two more boring saucers or scoops. Not to mention if it was a dock ock sort of scoop, guess what, you get bricks out of that as well!
Seriouslly, well done Gomez, two ideas, *in the stern era*, that were not previously done!
Quoted from jarjarisgod:Good point on Valinor. I have no hope of ever getting there for many reasons beyond soul collecting. So not a big concern. If I turn into a good player over night, I'll have to reconsider.
Don't talk like that, you'll never get there thinking that crap! Concentrate each game on the goals. You get closer and closer, and then one day have "the game".
Even though I beat this, and did well on other games, the SDMEWM in TSPP still seemed impossible. I was somewhat close many times, but continued trying over and over. One day, it happened, the stars aligned. I may never get to that again, as this is by far the hardest thing I can imagine in pinball, but I'll be damned if I don't try each and every time to do it again!
Quoted from RobT:No need to take it personal. If you disagree, fine. Be happy. Obviously I'm not going to convince you that it's clunky any more than you are going to convince me that it's not.
Oh the stick poking between you and I. There's nothing personal, we've been down this road before Rob We agree on most things, but just like TWD, I'm sure you'll come around to my line of thinking in the end
And you won't convince me, I have one, have owned a long time, and still do, and maybe mine is the only one in existence that is not clunky, I can accept that. For that, I feel bad for those of you playing clunky machines in need of tuning, as it's sooooo smooth to play when operating correctly.
LOTR was up last night for me to play. Two shots away from Valinor and drained out... Given I'm mad, I'll label it a clunker today to spite it.
Took off Gandolf in an insane racking up of ROTK after beating it and he laid on the center ramp blocking it.
Fucking love LOTR…
Quoted from RobT:What "tuning" have you done to the sword ramp to make the ball not rattle when it hits the target before coming down the sword?
What "tuning" have you done to make a shot to Gimli stay in the saucer and not go flying past it?
And don't get me started on the orbit shots.
Well, read back, I described what I did, and what the fix is for the outer orbit shot and rear saucer. The inner orbit I had to add more space to the diverter, as is hugged the PF too much and wouldn't stay in it's place perfectly, making shots there hold up.
The Cave shot/Gimli - nothing. Look at it. The visual obviousness of it is that it was intended to make hard enough shots sneak through. That's clear when looking at it without even playing the game for the first time. Again, I have heard many times that was by design. You have to aim to graze one of the side posts. I like this, it's different. Again, you would prefer a bouncing out saucer like dock ock here instead? Booooooooooring... That would have been the option, and it would have been a problem on them all, just as in SM – that’s clunky!
The sword ramp is 100% on any game I play. I don't get it, clunky? It goes up the ramp, hammers the stand up, and rolls back perfectly onto a wickedly cool sword ramp. Is it simply because this is not a looping ramp like in MB that you call this clunky? It does it's design, as it should, every time. That's not clunky. By that definition every bash toy is clunky then I guess...?
I just don't see what you refer to. With a few tweaks (again, as per any stern), everything does what it is supposed to, cleanly. The sword ramp is made to hit like a sword in my opinion, and roll back down. If that equates to clunky to you, so be it, but clunky has a negative connotation in that description which I just don't see or accept, as this works as intended, and flawlessly on any machine I have played.
I still have more frustration with the dock ock bounce outs, the sandman vuk that sometimes doesn't make the vuk and lands on the plastics, or if you load two balls in there, one surely flies out somewhere else as it's not designed to handle two, and the rear post not catching enough.
Quoted from Lethal_Inc:For a used maybe even routed machine for $5k, no fu$&in way! For that kind of cheddar ill wait to see what the future holds VE or not.
Then when it doesn't, HUO's will be going for even more.
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