I own LOTR and it will always be in my collection. My buddy has SM and it is cool. If I had to pick one I would pick LOTR. LOTR by a large margin

The items that need "completing" to reach SH are the 2nd and 3rd Venom modes, (1st is on a hurry up countdown) all 3 Sandman modes and all 3 Goblin modes. Everything else on the web just needs to be played/activated and there is no order of doing X before Y.

Valinor is much more strict where a successful DTR must be the last task after all else is completed, which is why Valinor often requires several DTR sessions in a game.

^ 100% accurate.

Whatever...

Shut up, you Valinor elitists!

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Back at ya.

No need to take it personal. If you disagree, fine. Be happy. Obviously I'm not going to convince you that it's clunky any more than you are going to convince me that it's not.

I've owned 3 different LOTRs, including an LE. The (made) shots are all clunky, with the exception of the left ramp, and this was the case on all 3 that I've owned, and has been the case on every LOTR that I've played, including the one I played last weekend. It's the nature of the design.

It's not like I'm saying the game sucks or the pin isn't playable. For God's sake, I wouldn't have owned 3 of them if I thought that.

But you haven't played mine Rob!

The other thing that annoyed me after a while was the spinner sound and VUK sound. They grate. Oh, and Gimli saying "Get ahold of yourself" every trip to the POTD! Everything else is brilliant in the sound/music department though.

Oh the stick poking between you and I. There's nothing personal, we've been down this road before Rob We agree on most things, but just like TWD, I'm sure you'll come around to my line of thinking in the end

And you won't convince me, I have one, have owned a long time, and still do, and maybe mine is the only one in existence that is not clunky, I can accept that. For that, I feel bad for those of you playing clunky machines in need of tuning, as it's sooooo smooth to play when operating correctly.

SM without hesitation
lord of the rings is boring

Maybe it's really just a different use of the term "clunky". Sword ramp is a good example - the ball doesn't smoothly and continuously flow through that ramp like e.g. on Monster Bash (which is a similar ramp concept-wise), it travels up, hits a target causing a full stop (= a "clunk") and then just dribbles down the ramp without power. It's not a buttery smooth shot, it's kind of "edgy" (if you prefer this word over "clunky").

On PotD it also doesn't leave the mini-PF smoothly, it drops uncontrolled onto the Arwen plastic (clunk 1) and does another uncontrolled drop (clunk 2) into the VUK as opposed to being smoothly guided from the mini-PF to the VUK.

But as previously mentioned this roughness (= clunkiness) adds to the rough feel of the theme, so it's a very positive and intended clunkiness to me.

I might be wrong, havn't paid attention for a while, but I think it alternates with the callouts "the path of the dead" and "the dead are coming", it's not always "get ahold of yourself".

I guess we already noticed that the sound quality varies heavily from game to game. On mine with the complete PinballPro setup including the high power sub upgrade the VUK sound is a deep undistorted thump that even makes the machine shake slightly. The Spinner sound is a very clear "swords clashing" sound. I do remember that the factory speakers were a serious mess and couldn't handle the dynamics of the modified (only the sound was upgraded from standard whitestar boards) LotR-CPU/Soundboard at all, especially for very deep (VUK) and very high (Spinner) sounds.

SM is boring and sucks. LOTR is one of the best games made. Choice is easy.

This thread kind of supported my impression that the sound quality varies heavily between different machines. LotR uses a custom whitestar CPU with a heavily upgraded 16Bit sound segment (standard Whitestar is 8 bit sound). Maybe they used different components for different runs of the custom LotR boards or some components do not age well or some have the standard whitestar sound components, but I'm really just guessing.

So I'm not comfortable to say if you upgrade the speakers the sound will be great. On my machine the sound was ok before the upgrade, it wasn't really great though and especially the more dynamic sound bits were slightly "scratchy". This more or less completely vanished after the speaker upgrade on mine.
I've had visitors (who own LotR themselves) who asked me if I'm using something like the pinball browser or pinsound board to get such clear sound, but it's just the standard setup with PinballPro speakers. I guess they make the best out of what the board can deliver while the Stern stock speakers which can hardly handle 8-bit-sound are completely overcharged by the 16-bit range used in LotR.

Yeah, we are good.

Have to ask though...what kind of "tuning" have you done to the Shire shot to make it "not clunky"??

What "tuning" have you done to the sword ramp to make the ball not rattle when it hits the target before coming down the sword?

What "tuning" have you done to make a shot to Gimli stay in the saucer and not go flying past it?

And don't get me started on the orbit shots.

Allow me.

He hasn't really done anything out of the ordinary, nor does his LOTR play differently than any others. He simply sees "clunky" as a derogatory term, and will defend against it til the bitter end. His LOTR clunks just like every other.

It's simply LOTR. There are no special ones, but simply players who are so accustomed to their machine and love it so dearly they cannot bear thinking of it as 'clunky.' Though it undoubtedly is. Every nuance of the playfield geometry and shots, whether by chance or design, melds perfectly with the rules and software: the ball separation and staggering during multiballs, the way the modes are timed and the fed returns, etc. LOTR is a phenomenal machine, but to suggest it's not a clunky playing game is absurd. Unless your machine does not have an Orthanc, Shire, Baradur, Sword Ramp, etc.

To the original topic, I'd say it's a good comparison. The software is perfect on LOTR, maybe the best overall package ever coded. SM is a far superior layout, to me, and yet the software is not as fine-tuned to the playfield, nor the rules and mode goals as intuitive, as LOTR. I'd rule it a draw. Depends what sort of gameplay you're after.

So! You admit that the LOTR you sold to me was clunky?!

BEWARE: BAD SELLER ALERT!!!

Spiderman all the way. i just happen to have one for sale...

http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/rcbrown316rcbrown316/library/Stern%20Spiderman

Lol. Hey I did eliminate the Shire clunk at least, with the ramp diverter on POTD, but it completely crippled me towards ROTK and single-handedly kept me from Valinor multiple times.

LOTR is meant to be clunky, and it doesn't like it when you try and mess w that. Lol

I'd say only the sword ramp feels a little clunky and maybe the right orbit. Other than that, it's pretty smooth if you have it leveled correctly.

There is nothing you can do about the shire, Gandalf loop, Gimli saucer, and sword ramp being clunky. I'll say it again...it doesn't hinder my desire to own one again someday (VE please) because the game is that good. People who say it's a smooth game are in denial.

I dont find those shots clunky. Gimli saucer works like shit half of the time, so I guess i agree with that. Least the location is better so it doesn't act like the saucer in avengers. (shudder)

Agree on Avengers saucer...double shudder.

Ironically I removed the ramp diverter almost as soon as I got it. I'm not the player you are, and I needed those extra souls to start ROTK. So I made it even clunkier than when I received it!

Is soooo good that you're getting rid of it. Very compelling argument.

LOL. I JUST CANT GET INTO IT WHEN I COMPARE IT TO MY B/W GAMES

LOTR was up last night for me to play. Two shots away from Valinor and drained out... Given I'm mad, I'll label it a clunker today to spite it.

Took off Gandolf in an insane racking up of ROTK after beating it and he laid on the center ramp blocking it.

Fucking love LOTR…

Well, read back, I described what I did, and what the fix is for the outer orbit shot and rear saucer. The inner orbit I had to add more space to the diverter, as is hugged the PF too much and wouldn't stay in it's place perfectly, making shots there hold up.

The Cave shot/Gimli - nothing. Look at it. The visual obviousness of it is that it was intended to make hard enough shots sneak through. That's clear when looking at it without even playing the game for the first time. Again, I have heard many times that was by design. You have to aim to graze one of the side posts. I like this, it's different. Again, you would prefer a bouncing out saucer like dock ock here instead? Booooooooooring... That would have been the option, and it would have been a problem on them all, just as in SM – that’s clunky!

The sword ramp is 100% on any game I play. I don't get it, clunky? It goes up the ramp, hammers the stand up, and rolls back perfectly onto a wickedly cool sword ramp. Is it simply because this is not a looping ramp like in MB that you call this clunky? It does it's design, as it should, every time. That's not clunky. By that definition every bash toy is clunky then I guess...?

I just don't see what you refer to. With a few tweaks (again, as per any stern), everything does what it is supposed to, cleanly. The sword ramp is made to hit like a sword in my opinion, and roll back down. If that equates to clunky to you, so be it, but clunky has a negative connotation in that description which I just don't see or accept, as this works as intended, and flawlessly on any machine I have played.

I still have more frustration with the dock ock bounce outs, the sandman vuk that sometimes doesn't make the vuk and lands on the plastics, or if you load two balls in there, one surely flies out somewhere else as it's not designed to handle two, and the rear post not catching enough.

Both epic games, both great themes. Whichever is first released as a VE is the one I'm getting.

Why wait for something that may never happen? Just go pick up a HUO version of either one. They made plenty of both & they pop up for sale all the time.

yep, get both.. both great games, and yes both on the ol' wishlist.

Lotr is a tough game. SM is like AFM. Quick flowing game.

Either combo should be had in a collection. I have AFM and want a LOTR. Just rounds a collection nicely.

I've given up on posting what you are posting above.

There obviously seem to be many pinheads that rate the attribute "NIB" higher than the model/theme/game they are getting. Look how often posts in this thread have the message "i'll rather buy an inferior (given the general consent that LotR is one of Sterns best 3 pins of all time) pin than a used one".

If it never happens then I won't buy either. Problem is these HUO sellers are too proud of their games I guess cause all the ones I see for sale are $5K plus. For a used maybe even routed machine for $5k, no fu$&in way! For that kind of cheddar ill wait to see what the future holds VE or not.

Then when it doesn't, HUO's will be going for even more.

It still strikes me how differently pinheads think.

For me a new and readily available in best case "ok" game with mediocre build quality and unfinished code is worth much less than a game which is out of production (= "rare" to a certain extent), packed with features, one of the best of it's kind and has a build quality Stern will most likely never reach again.

A 5K plus LotR is MUCH better value than a 6 or 7K WWE, TWD or Mustang...

To me NIB is the most overrated and overpriced approach to pinball.

It's interesting to see people thinking exactly the other way around.

All this VE talk in this thread...jiFfM.jpg

Not sure why? I mean, this is a pinball forum, Stern is going to announce the next VE in a few months so the discussion is relevant, and it will be LOTRVE.

Triple_facepalm.png

Instead of a Vault Edition, shouldn't it be...

More silliness to follow...

Since Gary Stern confirmed at TPF that any old re-releases (VEs) will be on the original systems, there will be no increase in sound quality on LOTR even on a VE. So even less reason to wait for a VE of LOTR.