(Topic ID: 187701)

Slide save - cheating or just nudging/pinball skill?


By spinal

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 126 posts
  • 55 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by chuckwurt
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “The slide save is...”

    • ... cheating at pinball. If you're physically moving the pin across the floor it's going too far! 61 votes
      28%
    • ... just another form of nudging. Just because the legs move a bit across the floor doesn't make a difference - I'll just move it back a bit after I drain and all is good. 156 votes
      72%

    (217 votes)

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    There are 126 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #51 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    Your definition of nudging includes sliding the pinball machine across the floor a few inches?

    Yep. Also, a tilt bob isn't supposed to detect and prevent cheating. It's a way to reduce ball times and game times like all the other settings a game has. Slam tilts are there for game abuse.

    Not sure I can think of anything on a pinball machine where its purpose is to stop cheating. Well maybe the playfield glass. Haha

    #52 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Yep. Also, a tilt bob isn't supposed to detect and prevent cheating. It's a way to reduce ball times and game times like all the other settings a game has. Slam tilts are there for game abuse.
    Not sure I can think of anything on a pinball machine where its purpose is to stop cheating.

    The most obvious is the glass over the playfield.

    #53 2 years ago

    Nudging 100%...but sliding the pin is kinda funky to me....I've played with some of the best players in the world and never seen anyone slideing the pin...on a side note my best pinball friend is the biggest extreme sliding king ever....

    #54 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    Then please quote someone who said that nudging is cheating. I said that the machine "slid an inch or two". That is not not the same as nudging. Thanks.

    i can't disagree any more strongly with your wrong, incorrect opinion.

    -1
    #55 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    i can't disagree any more strongly with your wrong, incorrect opinion.

    Ditto. What's your point?

    #56 2 years ago

    i already made my point, which is you are objectively wrong.

    -1
    #57 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    i already made my point, which is you are objectively wrong.

    Then please state your objective.

    #58 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Yep. Also, a tilt bob isn't supposed to detect and prevent cheating. It's a way to reduce ball times and game times like all the other settings a game has. Slam tilts are there for game abuse.

    New games from Stern have only one tilt that is enabled and ready when your game is shipped to you. That is the tilt bob. Of course, you do need to hang the bob on the rod. There is a physical slam tilt switch connector hard wired on the door, but no optional slam tilt switch installed. In fact, I think it has been well over ten years since Stern shipped a game with a slam tilt ready to go. Also, unless this has changed recently, even if you install the optional slam tilt switch the code isn't in the game to enable it! Chas wasn't sure which game they quit coding it in. That reminds me that I need to call Stern and check to see if that issue was rectified.

    Decades ago games had several tilts to stop players from abusing games. Pick up the front of the game to save the ball? Ball roll tilt. Kick the bottom of the game? Pick up the game and drop it? Slam tilt on floor of game. Kick the front door? Slam tilt on door. Shove the game sideways? Tilt bob with no warnings and another tilt on underside of playfield. If you slid the game, you would tilt out.

    #59 2 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    No. Machines were built to nudge and its part of the game. Any owner that says you can't nudge I guess I'd have to be done playing and want to leave because that person was too ridiculous to hang with.

    You can nudge my machines anytime, Markmon.

    #60 2 years ago

    I consider it fair game, was taught to me in my local arcade on Frontier from some college students. Tilt was set fairly and you could save quite a few balls this way. Game was on carpet but the kind that you would find in a casino. Game could slide fairly easily on it but you had to do it slow and steady and ease into and out of the slide or you were sure to Tilt. Good move, I say fair game...how do tournaments rule the maneuver?

    #61 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    You want a sporting event. If a foul is committed but the referee/umpire does not see it, is it still a foul?
    C'mon. That's a far better analogy than a cargument.

    It is better. Except in this case, the ref is the tilt bob. The penalty is tilting the machine and losing points, but I just moved it 2 inches and it didn't tilt so there is no foul. In a tournament last week I moved an Aerosmith probably 4-5 inches, it didn't tilt out, no big deal. Mind you I didn't think, "Ok i need to pick up the machines and move it to one side," I just reacted and the machine moved over a concrete floor...what am I to do? Just walk away from the game mid ball saying I'm sorry?

    Quoted from Pinballlew:

    Good move, I say fair game...how do tournaments rule the maneuver?

    Up to the tournament director. If it's a player running it i have never had an issue. If it's a collector I've had 1 person bitch at me, but I was rage tilting so it was deserved on their part.

    Once again, make the tilt tougher...use games that deal with bonii after the ball...stops it right quick.

    #62 2 years ago

    How would it be ruled at say PAPA?

    #63 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballlew:

    How would it be ruled at say PAPA?

    It's perfectly fine. If you tilt, you tilt.

    Only exception would be if you bumped into another player / game hard enough to disrupt them, or if the game had rubber footies and you moved the game off of them (which is a separate rule). But sliding itself is legal.

    #64 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballlew:

    How would it be ruled at say PAPA?

    Here's a video showing a MASSIVE slide save by Josh Sharpe at the Louisville Arcade Expo (PAPA Circuit Event) in 2014.

    #65 2 years ago

    You bet, slide saves, just like nudging, are just another way to move the machine to change the balls path. No tilt, no fowl.

    #66 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballlew:

    How would it be ruled at say PAPA?

    Here's another video... this time showing a slide save by Joshua Henderson at the 2013-14 IFPA Illinois State Pinball Championship.

    #67 2 years ago
    Quoted from Razorbak86:

    » YouTube video

    If it's ok for the championships..it's ok in life. Nobody can disagree with that.

    #68 2 years ago
    Quoted from Taygeta:

    Nudging, slapsaves etc are fine.
    Death saves or any moves that damage the structural integrity of the game not so much. Have heard the wood splinter at tournaments when some players with anger issues kick the legs.

    How the f.....is a slide save the same as KICKING THE GAME?

    Do you people even read anything that's said or just let the verbal diarrhea fly?

    #69 2 years ago

    Learn some effing history!

    Nudging was part of pinball before flippers were part of pinball. To not move a machine is silly. Moving the cabinet to influence the ball is part of the game.

    #70 2 years ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Learn some effing history!

    Or at the very least, learn to play pinball!
    Stop putting that p**ball on a pedestal...
    It's been a commercial machine long before you were born.

    You think Way2wyrd's 32-33' Bally Airway has been pampered it's entire life?
    Hell-f*<k-NO!

    I can picture all the non-slide saving no-nudgey mo-fo's collections right now.
    Immacculate/glossy sub 75 plays B/W 90's A-listers galore, color bombed GI PF's (or at least a $#!t-ton of purple...) set up at a pedestrian 5.5 degrees, game-matched dust covers, overpriced/oversized toppers, velvet ropes, no EM's OR early Solid State to be found.

    Crappy beer on all SEVEN taps.

    All in all,
    A generally "un-fun" environment.

    #71 2 years ago
    Quoted from Razorbak86:

    Here's a video showing a MASSIVE slide save by Josh Sharpe at the Louisville Arcade Expo (PAPA Circuit Event) in 2014.
    » YouTube video

    What I dig is that afterwards he has the courtesy to readjust the camera.

    Later,
    EV

    #72 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    You want a sporting event. If a foul is committed but the referee/umpire does not see it, is it still a foul?

    Your logic is a little flawed. Dangers are allowed in Pinball, fouls in sports are not. Besides, the tilt bob is never looking the wrong way.

    I think slide saves are just fine. Unless it's my prized 1968 Bally Safari. Slide save that and I'm throwing your ass out on the pavement.

    I did read this before, so I guess there is something other than the tilt bob that will decide if you can successfully pull off a slide save.

    From the PAPA rules:

    "Any player who moves a game to the point it slides off of a rubber foot beneath the game’s leg will be given a score of zero for the game. This is determined based on any portion of the leg leveler being in physical contact with the ground."

    -1
    #73 2 years ago

    Cheating is determined by the rules of the game/tournament. Period.

    If you're in a tournament, and slide-saves are not barred, then it is not cheating. If you're at someone's house in a home tourney, and the owner says slide-saves are barred, it's cheating.

    Doesn't matter what the "origins" of the game or any other non-sense state. Cheating is to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage. If the tournament says you can only flip with the right flipper, then it is cheating to flip with the left. No one cares about the fact that the left flipper was invented in 1947.

    #74 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    You want a sporting event. If a foul is committed but the referee/umpire does not see it, is it still a foul?
    C'mon. That's a far better analogy than a cargument.

    Better analogy for sure, because you can still get fined by the league. (Owner of the game)
    But there is nothing wrong with a slide save, it's part of the game. If you don't tilt, good job!
    But if you're playing someone's collection, for fun, and know that is frowned upon. Bad job!
    As far as damaging the game/cabinet, shouldn't happen. But would seem more likely to occur if the feet are in those rubber footies, sticking them to the floor and stressing the cabinet more.
    Also, I've seen games on sealed concrete floors, and when you go for a slide save they break loose and slide 6 inches like they're on ice, that sux.
    All said, some people are more aggressive and slide more than they should, and some people are too protective of the machine, going off when they see it move at all. Hope the two aren't in the same place.

    #75 2 years ago
    Quoted from maffewl:

    No one cares about the fact that the left flipper was invented in 1947.

    Well, technically it wasn't...
    It was however finally electrified around that time.

    #76 2 years ago
    Quoted from NimblePin:

    Well, technically it wasn't...
    It was however finally electrified around that time.

    Lol... I knew someone was bound to check the date. NimblePin is that guy.

    Edit: And I still don't care.

    -17
    #77 2 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    I'm pretty sure the Ninjargument above takes the cake... like...really...how the hell can you quote Devo as a defense for refusing to develop an actual skill? How many of the "ninjas" at the highest echelon of pinball players DON'T NUDGE?
    Zero?
    Oh...

    Um....those who fail to learn from Devo are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Santana said that years ago, and it holds true today. Not to mention those who fail to learn from the very words of Pinball Wizard wherein (and I quoteth) "He stands like a statue/becomes part of the machine/Felling all the bumpers/ALWAYS PLAYING CLEAN". Now, if that isn't proof positive I don't know what is.

    So, as we have all seen in pretty much any Ninja movie (and 'Ninja' is capitalized, thank you), there is always the brash youngster who shows up full of piss and vinegar who gets his ass kicked by the aged, feeble-looking bald Ninja master and must learn to rethink his ways before becoming a true Ninja warrior.

    A true Ninja (or Tommy) would never need to manhandle the machine because he would always be in complete command of the ball.
    Shoving the machine around is like putting Vaseline on the baseball or deflating the football a tad. It's dirty pool, old man. You might get away with it, but .....

    Show me two players with equal scores and the one who didn't need to jostle the machine is the better player.

    And as for the old 'pinball machines are meant to be shoved around argument' ... that's ludicrous. It's more like 'Pinball makers know that the machines will be abused by mooks in public settings so they account for that in their design'. Those are two different things.

    12
    #78 2 years ago
    Quoted from GregCon:

    Um....those who fail to learn from Devo are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Santana said that years ago, and it holds true today. Not to mention those who fail to learn from the very words of Pinball Wizard wherein (and I quoteth) "He stands like a statue/becomes part of the machine/Felling all the bumpers/ALWAYS PLAYING CLEAN". Now, if that isn't proof positive I don't know what is.
    So, as we have all seen in pretty much any Ninja movie (and 'Ninja' is capitalized, thank you), there is always the brash youngster who shows up full of piss and vinegar who gets his ass kicked by the aged, feeble-looking bald Ninja master and must learn to rethink his ways before becoming a true Ninja warrior.
    A true Ninja (or Tommy) would never need to manhandle the machine because he would always be in complete command of the ball.
    Shoving the machine around is like putting Vaseline on the baseball or deflating the football a tad. It's dirty pool, old man. You might get away with it, but .....
    Show me two players with equal scores and the one who didn't need to jostle the machine is the better player.
    And as for the old 'pinball machines are meant to be shoved around argument' ... that's ludicrous. It's more like 'Pinball makers know that the machines will be abused by mooks in public settings so they account for that in their design'. Those are two different things.

    Wrong.

    #79 2 years ago

    So unbelievably wrong. Show me one high level player who doesn't nudge. There aren't any. Zero.

    #80 2 years ago
    Quoted from GregCon:

    Um....those who fail to learn from Devo are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Santana said that years ago, and it holds true today. Not to mention those who fail to learn from the very words of Pinball Wizard wherein (and I quoteth) "He stands like a statue/becomes part of the machine/Felling all the bumpers/ALWAYS PLAYING CLEAN". Now, if that isn't proof positive I don't know what is.
    So, as we have all seen in pretty much any Ninja movie (and 'Ninja' is capitalized, thank you), there is always the brash youngster who shows up full of piss and vinegar who gets his ass kicked by the aged, feeble-looking bald Ninja master and must learn to rethink his ways before becoming a true Ninja warrior.
    A true Ninja (or Tommy) would never need to manhandle the machine because he would always be in complete command of the ball.
    Shoving the machine around is like putting Vaseline on the baseball or deflating the football a tad. It's dirty pool, old man. You might get away with it, but .....
    Show me two players with equal scores and the one who didn't need to jostle the machine is the better player.
    And as for the old 'pinball machines are meant to be shoved around argument' ... that's ludicrous. It's more like 'Pinball makers know that the machines will be abused by mooks in public settings so they account for that in their design'. Those are two different things.

    So you better write to directors of PAPA tournaments and tell them a song from The Who determines what's legal & what isn't.

    10
    #81 2 years ago
    Quoted from GregCon:

    Um....those who fail to learn from Devo are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Santana said that years ago, and it holds true today. Not to mention those who fail to learn from the very words of Pinball Wizard wherein (and I quoteth) "He stands like a statue/becomes part of the machine/Felling all the bumpers/ALWAYS PLAYING CLEAN". Now, if that isn't proof positive I don't know what is.
    So, as we have all seen in pretty much any Ninja movie (and 'Ninja' is capitalized, thank you), there is always the brash youngster who shows up full of piss and vinegar who gets his ass kicked by the aged, feeble-looking bald Ninja master and must learn to rethink his ways before becoming a true Ninja warrior.
    A true Ninja (or Tommy) would never need to manhandle the machine because he would always be in complete command of the ball.
    Shoving the machine around is like putting Vaseline on the baseball or deflating the football a tad. It's dirty pool, old man. You might get away with it, but .....
    Show me two players with equal scores and the one who didn't need to jostle the machine is the better player.
    And as for the old 'pinball machines are meant to be shoved around argument' ... that's ludicrous. It's more like 'Pinball makers know that the machines will be abused by mooks in public settings so they account for that in their design'. Those are two different things.

    Get a life.
    Nudging IS pinball & exactly how pinball started. The early pins had NO flippers. The only way to control anything was to nudge.

    #82 2 years ago
    Quoted from dasvis:

    Get a life.
    Nudging IS pinball & exactly how pinball started. The early pins had NO flippers. The only way to control anything was to nudge.

    Gee, and "Pinball Wizard" wasn't even on the radio yet - how did they know how to play back then?

    #83 2 years ago
    Quoted from GregCon:

    And as for the old 'pinball machines are meant to be shoved around argument' ... that's ludicrous. It's more like 'Pinball makers know that the machines will be abused by mooks in public settings so they account for that in their design'. Those are two different things.

    *snort*

    It's as if you've kept your eyes closed.. Why do you think there are posts with rubber with these inlane gates?? To protect the ball or something?

    ij (resized).jpg

    centaur (resized).jpg

    #84 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    *snort*
    It's as if you've kept your eyes closed.. Why do you think there are posts with rubber with these inlane gates?? To protect the ball or something?

    Playing with your eyes closed is how a true ninja plays (& never attains a high score of any kind).

    #85 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    *snort*
    It's as if you've kept your eyes closed.. Why do you think there are posts with rubber with these inlane gates?? To protect the ball or something?

    Add Flip Flop and Silverball Mania to the list of games where nudging/moving the game is necessary to keep the ball in play... If the ball is going down the left outlane on SBM and my center kicker is activated, I'm moving that game (either by nudge or small slide) to get it there. Even if it's not activated, I still get points for the center drain so I'm ALWAYS nudging... Sorry I don't have example pics, but most would know what I'm talking about.

    -Steve

    #86 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    *snort*
    It's as if you've kept your eyes closed.. Why do you think there are posts with rubber with these inlane gates?? To protect the ball or something?

    also, there are games (WOZ is one) that actually award +1 Tilt Warning as a mystery award -- thus ENCOURAGING you to nudge to the point of receiving warnings.

    plus both of WOZ's outlanes are intentionally nudge games.

    #87 2 years ago

    I'm curious about how people's opinions on slide saves relate to things like how long they've been in pinball, how many machines they own, whether they've bought routed machines or only new, etc. I will do slide saves, but not on people's private games without asking them first. It's not because I think it's cheating, though. It's only out of respect for others' property.

    -1
    #88 2 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    I'm curious about how people's opinions on slide saves relate to things like how long they've been in pinball, how many machines they own, whether they've bought routed machines or only new, etc. I will do slide saves, but not on people's private games without asking them first. It's not because I think it's cheating, though. It's only out of respect for others' property.

    There's a difference between how you treat games at home versus at someone else's house or a public location.

    I love how I didn't even need to defend my position above, and I'm not even going to bother at this point, because now it's just LULZ. I'm glad that so many people seem to 'get it' while there's a few people that will never know what a wizard mode feels like, or a tournament win. LOL

    #89 2 years ago
    Quoted from dasvis:

    Get a life.
    Nudging IS pinball & exactly how pinball started. The early pins had NO flippers. The only way to control anything was to nudge.

    "Get a life." Really?

    -1
    #90 2 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    I'm curious about how people's opinions on slide saves relate to things like how long they've been in pinball, how many machines they own, whether they've bought routed machines or only new, etc. I will do slide saves, but not on people's private games without asking them first. It's not because I think it's cheating, though. It's only out of respect for others' property.

    If you mean move it 1-2" on a surface that's compatible.. that's pinball. If you move it to slam into something or it twerks the legs/cabinets.. that's generally not cool on location or at home

    Of course it always helps to understand your host... some people think their games are snowflakes and can't handle anything. It generally helps to learn from people how they approach the games and go from there. Heck, usually half of them are not even aware of such skills such as nudging, slaps, shifts, etc.

    You want a tougher spot to figure out.. try moving other people's games

    #91 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    If you mean move it 1-2" on a surface that's compatible.. that's pinball. If you move it to slam into something or it twerks the legs/cabinets.. that's generally not cool on location or at home
    Of course it always helps to understand your host... some people think their games are snowflakes and can't handle anything. It generally helps to learn from people how they approach the games and go from there. Heck, usually half of them are not even aware of such skills such as nudging, slaps, shifts, etc.
    You want a tougher spot to figure out.. try moving other people's games

    So....since you basically agree with me, I'm trying to figure out why you downvoted me.

    -1
    #92 2 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    So....since you basically agree with me, I'm trying to figure out why you downvoted me.

    I don't agree with this...

    Quoted from Frax:

    There's a difference between how you treat games at home versus at someone else's house or a public location.

    The games on location are owned by someone too... they don't deserve to be second class citizens by people who actually care about the hobby (vs random abusive public).

    I don't treat games any differently. Now if someone has made a game some beauty queen and puts it up on a pedestal.. I'll generally be more ginger with it because we are probably looking at it more than we are playing it hard. I mean, when a game looks fragile.. treat it as such.

    I'm more concerned about my cosmetics when I move the games over open ground, or people gouging them by going inbetween the games, than I am how anyone actually PLAYS them. Short of kicking the game, iron fisting the glass, doing bang backs, etc... its not much anyone is going to do to hurt a game that is solid.

    I put the games far more at 'risk' when I'm pivoting them, dragging them, and dropping them.

    -1
    #93 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    I don't treat games any differently. Now if someone has made a game some beauty queen and puts it up on a pedestal.. I'll generally be more ginger with it because we are probably looking at it more than we are playing it hard. I mean, when a game looks fragile.. treat it as such.

    Right, so you treat them diff'rent, got it.

    #94 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Right, so you treat them diff'rent, got it.

    For the reading impaired...
    Screen Shot 2017-05-08 at 3.23.34 PM (resized).png

    -1
    #95 2 years ago

    God you're even more boring than usual. You usually make more sense though.

    #96 2 years ago

    I'm going to put casters on the legs. That way everyone can be happy.

    #97 2 years ago
    Quoted from Fixie:

    I'm going to put casters on the legs. That way everyone can be happy.

    Funny you should say this, the Lost World I bought had them on it. Sure made it easy to get it to my van.

    #98 2 years ago
    Quoted from Fixie:

    I'm going to put casters on the legs. That way everyone can be happy.

    LED'd or just powder coated?

    #99 2 years ago

    I'm with pezpunk here. The answer is so clearly "not cheating" that I'm honestly baffled how "cheating" is getting around 30% of the vote.

    #100 2 years ago
    Quoted from Beatnik-Filmstar:

    I'm honestly baffled how "cheating" is getting around 30% of the vote.

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