(Topic ID: 187701)

Slide save - cheating or just nudging/pinball skill?


By spinal

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 126 posts
  • 55 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by chuckwurt
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic poll

    “The slide save is...”

    • ... cheating at pinball. If you're physically moving the pin across the floor it's going too far! 61 votes
      28%
    • ... just another form of nudging. Just because the legs move a bit across the floor doesn't make a difference - I'll just move it back a bit after I drain and all is good. 156 votes
      72%

    (217 votes)

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 5 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    Screen Shot 2017-05-08 at 3.23.34 PM (resized).png
    centaur (resized).jpg
    ij (resized).jpg
    image (resized).jpg
    image (resized).jpg

    There are 126 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 2 years ago

    The Slide Save: Your ball is heading SDTM so you grab the sides of the machine and physically slide it sideways, legs moving some distance across the floor (possibly as much as inches). The ball kept its original trajectory but you've successfully moved the playfield underneath the ball far enough to get a flipper on it. Success! You've kept the ball in play without a full tilt and keep on playing.

    Is the slide save considered cheating or just another form of nudging/pinball skill?

    Under what circumstances is it OK to perform a slide save? At a friends house? In competition?

    #2 2 years ago

    I almost always do this on my CFTBL after not getting it quite up the left ramp. Comes back SDTM every time, so I do the slide save. I don't think that game has a tilt bob so I probably couldn't do it on a game that has one

    #3 2 years ago

    The tilt switch is there for a reason. If you trigger it, you've moved the game too much. If not, no problem.

    The only real exception is if there's contact with the machine or player next to you. That's definitely not okay; I'm not sure what the ruling would be if it affected the other player's game in a tournament.

    #4 2 years ago

    I think people that just watch the ball go stdm are mush

    18
    #5 2 years ago

    If you don't tilt the machine, it's skill. If you tilt the machine you need to practice your skills.

    #6 2 years ago

    I feel anything that can get the ball to a flipper before draining and not tilting is fair game to me.

    #7 2 years ago

    I do not consider slide saves cheating it's just another way of saving the ball I do it all the time in tournaments. The only thing I consider cheating are death saves and bang backs.

    #8 2 years ago

    Agreed with all the responses so far. Note that some high-level competitions have started adding rubber feet to the front legs of their tournament machines, both to make slide saving harder and also to be able to implement a rule that says that moving the machine out of a rubber slider is a DQ.

    -5
    #9 2 years ago

    No tournament expert here but I though slide saves are not allowed. Now in home play for fun that's up to the player.

    #10 2 years ago

    Slide saves are ABSOLUTELY a valid and legal form of play. Obviously this technique is only applicable to modern games where a tilt warning or two occurs before a tilt. If the legs of the machine are not visibly lifted off the game floor, this is perfectly valid. That being said, I think some players take it far too much considering what's needed to alter the ball 1-2" to get onto a flipper, but that's part of the tilt risk. If operators don't wish slide saves to be used (any damage would be to non-carpeted flooring if you have some really shitty leg levelers), then they can 1.) make the tilt bob tighter 2.) use pin footies which grip the floor better and make this technique tougher

    #11 2 years ago
    Quoted from Coolpinballdino:

    I do not consider slide saves cheating it's just another way of saving the ball I do it all the time in tournaments. The only thing I consider cheating are death saves and bang backs.

    I don't even consider death saves and bangbacks cheating as long as the tilt is set properly and they aren't done in a way that damages the machine or any property. I do understand why they are banned for tournaments though.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pickle:

    No tournament expert here but I though slide saves are not allowed. Now in home play for fun that's up to the player.

    Don't you think it should be up to the owner of the machines.... I have played some collections where the owner prefers no nudging of the machines.... you need to respect thier wishes ....

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    I don't even consider death saves and bangbacks cheating as long as the tilt is set properly and they aren't done in a way that damages the machine or any property. I do understand why they are banned for tournaments though.

    I see your point why you might not consider death saves cheating mikeS if you have the tilt properly set but it gets really annoying when you are playing​ a game on route that doesn't have a tight or no tilt at all especially when you play with someone who will abuse it like evan pinsider wxforcaster he is the king of death saves.

    #14 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pickle:

    No tournament expert here but I though slide saves are not allowed. Now in home play for fun that's up to the player.

    http://pinballvideos.com/?v=486&s=3139

    Check the highlight if it doesn't go directly to it.

    #15 2 years ago

    I always thought this was just one of the side benefits of keeping your games on sliding Teflon casters...

    #16 2 years ago

    The game should tilt if you slide it across the floor....

    #17 2 years ago

    Slide saves are part of pinball play.

    You take what the game gives you.

    It's a counter measure when an on location pin has been set up unfairly (or not set things up properly at all).

    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from toasterman04:

    Don't you think it should be up to the owner of the machines.... I have played some collections where the owner prefers no nudging of the machines.... you need to respect thier wishes ....

    Playing someones collection, sure. But, if they are hosting a tournament/league, nudging needs to be allowed.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from toasterman04:

    Don't you think it should be up to the owner of the machines.... I have played some collections where the owner prefers no nudging of the machines.... you need to respect thier wishes ....

    If they don't want their machines nudged all they have to do is set the tilt tight to prevent it.

    #20 2 years ago

    I do not see how anyone could vote for cheating.
    The machine is built to beat you. Take every GD advantage you can. lol.

    #21 2 years ago
    Quoted from JosephT:

    I think people that just watch the ball go stdm are mush

    depends on the game. Games where all your score is bonus. like TOTAN. or Indy 500. You really going to risk a tilt if you have a shiton of bonus built up?

    #22 2 years ago

    No, no, he didn't slam you, he didn't bump you, he didn't nudge you... he *rubbed* you. And rubbin, son, is racin'.

    Same can be said of pinball -- slide'n is pinball.

    #23 2 years ago

    get carpet in your game room and all the slide will not be a concern anymore.

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from toasterman04:

    Don't you think it should be up to the owner of the machines.... I have played some collections where the owner prefers no nudging of the machines.... you need to respect thier wishes ....

    No...well I guess it is since they own it but if you can't bare to watch your machine get moved a few inches, you need to find a new hobby because you're doing this wrong. Those are THE LOWEST FORM of people in the hobby IMO.

    #25 2 years ago

    Live catches, loop passes, tap passes, plunging into the correct inlane without using lane change buttons, shaking and nudging a ball out of an outlane--these are all examples of pinball skills.

    Anyone can shove a pinball machine sideways and take advantage of the tilt debounce. Where is the skill in that? Just knowing that you will get two dangers and it won't tilt? Tightening up the tilt to stop game shoving simply makes the game less fun to play for everyone. Eliminating a tilt warning has a similar effect.

    Players that think that slide saves, death saves and bangbacks don't hurt games has yet to fix a broken tab weld on a lockdown bar, replace bent legs, or fix cabinet damage, not to mention possibly tearing up the floor of the location.

    Yeah, I operate pins and if I see you throwing a game around I will politely ask you to stop, if you do it again you will be asked to leave.

    #26 2 years ago

    Very interesting: more than one third (at the time of this posting) think that the slide save is cheating at pinball! So I guess one should ask first before performing this at a friends house.

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from spinal:

    So I guess one should ask first before performing this at a friends house.

    And then leave if they start crying.

    #28 2 years ago

    its part of the game... and of course linked to how TILT is set-up... but for sure, no prob here !
    few ago, the owner of a machine in a tournament held my son (after his game) because he was ungry he have "slide" it (while perfectly saving the ball)

    i talk with the guy (ok he's a friend), he stay on his position (than not happy), i stay on mine (than well done son) ...
    and of course, we did this with our own pinballs too, absolutly no agression againts the machines here

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    And then leave if they start crying.

    I know at least one person local to me that would probably have a coronary.

    #30 2 years ago

    Absurd that 35% of Pinside answered this incorrectly.

    #31 2 years ago

    And for the record, the only time I WOULDN'T use a slide save in a tournament if I felt it was absolutely necessary is if I'm playing Demo Man by the handles. THAT *is* asking for cabinet damage.....and probably a shoulder injury, LOL. I dunno. I'm used to playing at home where my games are head to head, and the location I typically play at the games are head to head, so it's not really like I can do what's in that video above where it moves two feet..

    Quoted from BrianBannon:

    Players that think that slide saves, death saves and bangbacks don't hurt games has yet to fix a broken tab weld on a lockdown bar, replace bent legs, or fix cabinet damage, not to mention possibly tearing up the floor of the location.

    I've never done a death save OR bangback, but I do slide saves all the time and no game I've ever owned and sold in 6 years has ever had any of these problems.....nor out of the ~55 games I've owned, have I ever purchased a game with any of these problems other than 'bent legs' (Frankly they usually look like such a pile of crap I don't care if they're bent! They're getting replaced anyways, so a little twist on them is kind of irrelevant!) that looked like it was due to abuse as much as NORMAL wear and tear, or overtightened leg bolts.

    I'll give you the floor damage. The flooring under my pins looks like dog crap.

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    And for the record, the only time I WOULDN'T use a slide save in a tournament if I felt it was absolutely necessary is if I'm playing Demo Man by the handles. THAT *is* asking for cabinet damage.....and probably a shoulder injury, LOL. I dunno. I'm used to playing at home where my games are head to head, and the location I typically play at the games are head to head, so it's not really like I can do what's in that video above where it moves two feet..

    I've never done a death save OR bangback, but I do slide saves all the time and no game I've ever owned and sold in 6 years has ever had any of these problems.....nor out of the ~55 games I've owned, have I ever purchased a game with any of these problems other than 'bent legs' (Frankly they usually look like such a pile of crap I don't care if they're bent! They're getting replaced anyways, so a little twist on them is kind of irrelevant!) that looked like it was due to abuse as much as NORMAL wear and tear, or overtightened leg bolts.
    I'll give you the floor damage. The flooring under my pins looks like dog crap.

    I've never had any issues either with damage to a pin through slide saves.

    Just put protectors on the feet to prevent carpet/floor damage -- easy & cheap.

    Doing regular maintenance/occasional tightening of leg bolts, head bolts, etc. should prevent any damage.

    Not sure how you could even bend a leg unless you neglect to ever tighten the bolts every now and then.

    Pins aren't going to fall apart because of slide saves, they're pretty robust machines.

    -10
    #33 2 years ago

    While I recognize moving the machine is a valid form of playing, I consider the 'best' player to be one who doesn't move the machine at all. I try to play that way, though in the heat of the battle I sometimes don't achieve that.

    But I'm sure not gonna slide the whole machine....I am sure that a true Ninja would never do that any more than he would kick his opponent between the legs. And, to paraphase Devo, are we not Ninjas?

    #34 2 years ago

    The legs on my pins are sunk an inch deep in the carpet.
    No way to slide them

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from Humph:

    I've never had any issues either with damage to a pin through slide saves.
    Just put protectors on the feet to prevent carpet/floor damage -- easy & cheap.
    Doing regular maintenance/occasional tightening of leg bolts, head bolts, etc. should prevent any damage.
    Not sure how you could even bend a leg unless you neglect to ever tighten the bolts every now and then.
    Pins aren't going to fall apart because of slide saves, they're pretty robust machines.

    +1, Old Chicago must have traveled over a mile 3 inches at a time on Friday night, eh Humph?

    -8
    #36 2 years ago

    I'm having a hard time with this; not sure what to think. The people who say that "anything that doesn't result in a tilt is not cheating" are not looking at this objectively in my opinion. By that logic, shoplifting is not shoplifting if you don't get caught. Seems to me it's still shoplifting. There can only be so many mechanical checks in place to ensure that cheating is not happening but if there is not a mechanic that can detect that the machine has smoothly slid an inch or two, that does not mean that it's not cheating and the designers of the games would condone it as a legitimate strategy. Personally, I'll do a slap save but I don't believe that physically moving the game during play is something that any pin designer would consider as legitimate, if it's detected or not.

    I do love pinball either way!

    -3
    #37 2 years ago

    Not sure if it's "cheating" as much as a total dick move and what I would consider against proper pin etiquette. If it's your own machine do as you wish.

    #38 2 years ago
    Quoted from toasterman04:

    Don't you think it should be up to the owner of the machines.... I have played some collections where the owner prefers no nudging of the machines.... you need to respect thier wishes ....

    No. Machines were built to nudge and its part of the game. Any owner that says you can't nudge I guess I'd have to be done playing and want to leave because that person was too ridiculous to hang with.

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    By that logic, shoplifting is not shoplifting if you don't get caught. Seems to me it's still shoplifting.

    Finally, something worse than a cargument.

    maybe if you changed this to a sporting activity and not something that is by it's definition a crime, you may see it diff'rently.

    Quoted from markmon:

    No. Machines were built to nudge and its part of the game. Any owner that says you can't nudge I guess I'd have to be done playing and want to leave because that person was too ridiculous to hang with.

    I do appreciate Gravitar taking the sides of the poor machines...a notorious game abuser

    -2
    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Finally, something worse than a cargument.
    maybe if you changed this to a sporting activity and not something that is by it's definition a crime, you may see it diff'rently.

    Your handle is "TheLaw" but you don't think a reference pertaining to crime and punishment is valid? Okay.

    You want a sporting event. If a foul is committed but the referee/umpire does not see it, is it still a foul?

    C'mon. That's a far better analogy than a cargument.

    #41 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Finally, something worse than a cargument.

    I'm pretty sure the Ninjargument above takes the cake... like...really...how the hell can you quote Devo as a defense for refusing to develop an actual skill? How many of the "ninjas" at the highest echelon of pinball players DON'T NUDGE?

    Zero?

    Oh...

    #42 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    Your handle is "TheLaw" but you don't think a reference pertaining to crime and punishment is valid? Okay.
    You want a sporting event. If a foul is committed but the referee/umpire does not see it, is it still a foul?
    C'mon. That's a far better analogy than a cargument.

    it's not a foul unless the tilt bob says it's a foul.

    i'm dumbfounded there are so many people who incorrectly believe nudging is somehow cheating.

    #43 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    Absurd that 35% of Pinside answered this incorrectly.

    wouldn't be the first time. I've seen pinside wrong a lot about a lot of things.

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    it's not a foul unless the tilt bob says it's a foul.
    i'm dumbfounded there are so many people who incorrectly believe nudging is somehow cheating.

    Then please quote someone who said that nudging is cheating. I said that the machine "slid an inch or two". That is not not the same as nudging. Thanks.

    #45 2 years ago

    Nudging, slapsaves etc are fine.

    Death saves or any moves that damage the structural integrity of the game not so much. Have heard the wood splinter at tournaments when some players with anger issues kick the legs.

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    Then please quote someone who said that nudging is cheating. I said that the machine "slid an inch or two". That is not not the same as nudging. Thanks.

    but if your tilt is setup right, it will tilt out if the offender pushed the limits. Hell, watch bowen play in the tutorials. everything he does is tournament legal and pulls that shit a lot.

    he does say death saves are always illegal, but that's a whole different animal then sliding the game over a bit. Hell, when I move my games i'll pick up the front and drag it's ass around the basement with no sliders on.

    #47 2 years ago
    Quoted from mtkinf:

    Then please quote someone who said that nudging is cheating. I said that the machine "slid an inch or two". That is not not the same as nudging. Thanks.

    I disagree. That is 100% a part of nudging imo.

    #48 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    but if your tilt is setup right, it will tilt out if the offender pushed the limits. Hell, watch bowen play in the tutorials. everything he does is tournament legal and pulls that shit a lot.
    he does say death saves are always illegal, but that's a whole different animal then sliding the game over a bit. Hell, when I move my games i'll pick up the front and drag it's ass around the basement with no sliders on.

    So is everyone's tilt "set up right"? This goes back to my original post.

    "There can only be so many mechanical checks in place to ensure that cheating is not happening but if there is not a mechanic that can detect that the machine has smoothly slid an inch or two, that does not mean that it's not cheating and the designers of the games would condone it as a legitimate strategy."

    If the cabinet can be slid several inches or lifted off the floor without the tilt mechanism being tripped, is it set up right?" Or is it not robust enough to detect these movements?

    #49 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    I disagree. That is 100% a part of nudging imo.

    Your definition of nudging includes sliding the pinball machine across the floor a few inches? I would disagree.

    #50 2 years ago

    Not cheating
    image (resized).jpg
    Cheating
    image (resized).jpg

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 49.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 999.00
    Flipper Parts
    Mircoplayfields
    $ 239.99
    Cabinet - Toppers
    Tilttopper
    $ 16.00
    Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 20.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Flashinstinct
    $ 114.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    From: $ 19.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 98.00
    Playfield - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 20.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 35.00
    Cabinet - Decals
    Pinball Haus
    $ 18.95
    $ 15.00
    Lighting - Other
    Slap Save Creations
    $ 999.00
    Flipper Parts
    Mircoplayfields
    $ 29.95
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    From: $ 369.95
    Boards
    PinSound Plus Out of stock
    PinSound
    $ 69.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 249.99
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    Great American Pinball
    $ 22.00
    Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 18.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 66.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 218.00
    $ 32.25
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    There are 126 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside