(Topic ID: 199226)

Slick Chick Pop Bumpers are Sticking on Intermittently


By SteveinTexas

2 years ago



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  • 16 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by SteveinTexas
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8 Safety (resized).JPG
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4 Troubleshooting (resized).JPG
3 Circuits (resized).JPG
1 Circuit Types (resized).JPG
1a Undestanding Schematic Circuits (resized).JPG
Capture (resized).JPG
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0-9 Stepper as mounted. (resized).JPG
0-9 Stepper (resized).JPG

#1 2 years ago

I finished a top to bottom restore of my Slick Chick early this year. It seemed to work flawlessly except for one nagging intermittent issue that was annoying. Occasionally after a couple of games the pop bumpers would stick on intermittently, occasionally going off after I hit another bumper but usually forcing me to switch off the machine to reset the game.

I filed or cleaned over and over again all the relevant switch contacts on all associated relays and on the scoring relays and it seemed to improve things for a while, and this stopped the game freezing with a relay locked on. However, a bumper relay would still occasionally stick on momentarily going off only when I hit another bumper. I must have lifted the playfield 50 times since trying to find the root cause. No other game I have had this issue. I started to look for a magnetized coil plunger and studied the schematic trying to see a hidden connection between the bumpers and switches etc. I never found a suspect switch that explained what was causing this issue and never found a coil with a sticking plunger until yesterday! It wasn't residual magnetism but a mechanical fault.

The 0-9 stepper has a connected 3” bell to signal scoring 1 point. As you score points it hammers that bell as the coil plunger pulls in.
0-9 Stepper as mounted. (resized).JPG 0-9 Stepper with bell

This I thought was a cool stepper that is held parallel to the mounting surface with 3 pins as it allowed you to mount it quickly. Because it is not perpendicular to the mounting area you cannot see the coil activating only hear it work because of the bell this is not so cool after all.

I unclipped the stepper and was watching the coil activate as I kept closing the N relay (yes, with the power on). The coil and plunger was chattering and seemed that this might be causing the issue…and it was. What was happening was the bell striker was too close to the bell so as the stepper coil pulled in the plunger, the coil plunger never reached the coil stop. The striker hit the bell first, not releasing the stop and deactivating the N relay EOS switch every time. There is also an adjustable stop and it was not adjusted correctly either. The fix is so simple, re-adjust the bell position away from the striker.
0-9 Stepper (resized).JPG Adjusting the bell and coil

I have never seen this issue mentioned in any search before (I made many searches here, on RGP and google) as it is probably so simple to so many it doesn’t need documenting. Anyway if others make my mistake hopefully you find this explanation a lot quicker than I did.

#2 2 years ago

Hi Steve
To "really talk" about Your pin and its problem: Please show us the snippet of schematics as I show from two other Gottlieb pins (take a picture of Your paper-schematics with the camera on Your mobile phone --- they usually make JPG-pictures).
"Buckaroo" has a relay for every Pop-Bumper --- "Hearts and Spades" has "ONE Relay actuates TWO bumpers" --- and Your pin ?

Non-pleasing is the "intermittent / sometimes".

Maybe "residual magnetism" on one or more relay(s) - want to try "sneak-in a thin paper between the armature of the relay and the coil of the relay" --- (((pulling strength of magnetic force weakens with distance, rapidly))).

See in the JPG - inital current flows to the coil of the relay along "my green lines" - the relay pulls-in, actuates all switches - so closes its Self-Hold-Switch*** - along my "red lines" is Self-Hold-Circuitry established.
Self-Hold-Switch*** - see on the "J-Relay": A short wire runs from one side of the COIL to an SWITCH mounted on the relay --- THIS is the Self-Hold-Switch***. Want to try "sneak-in a stripe of paper into the Self-Hold-Switch(es)*** to keep them always open --- then play many games. The playing is not as good as without sneaked-in stripe of paper --- BUT it gives us the answer to the question: fault in "my green wiring" or fault in my "red wiring". IF (if, if) the fault still happens: The cause is either residual magnetism or "in my green wiring". Greetings Rolf

0Hearts-And-Spades-Work-05 (resized).jpg

#3 2 years ago

Rolf,
I think you are over thinking it. It was a bell that was too close to the striker on the stepper. I will remove the offending word 'sometimes'.

#4 2 years ago

How did the bell strike kick on the pop bumpers? From your description I don't get the correlation ....

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from woz:

How did the bell strike kick on the pop bumpers? From your description I don't get the correlation ....

It doesn't.

This was a mechanical issue not an electrical issue.

From the second picture the striker is attached to the arm with the coil plunger. The plunger on the 0-9 stepper is activated by the N relay that registers a 1 point score from the bumpers and the kickers via the advance unit. So when the plunger pulls in it could not bottom out on the coils stop as the striker hit the bell first. This makes the plunger for the want for a better description stutter. Once I pulled the bell away the stutter stopped and the issue went away. After a while I adjusted the bell closer to the striker and all is well.

#6 2 years ago

Thats interesting, Steve. Thanks for sharing that with us.

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from SteveinTexas:

It doesn't.
This was a mechanical issue not an electrical issue.
From the second picture the striker is attached to the arm with the coil plunger. The plunger on the 0-9 stepper is activated by the N relay that registers a 1 point score from the bumpers and the kickers via the advance unit. So when the plunger pulls in it could not bottom out on the coils stop as the striker hit the bell first. This makes the plunger for the want for a better description stutter. Once I pulled the bell away the stutter stopped and the issue went away. After a while I adjusted the bell closer to the striker and all is well.

But how did this effect the pop bumpers? Pop bumper closes N, N studders, what releases the pop?

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

But how did this effect the pop bumpers? Pop bumper closes N, N studders, what releases the pop?

Causation I suffered was the bumper stayed on momentarily and the hitting of another bumper seemed to release it. I am guessing the power was not released when the coil plunger chattered not letting the bumper relay or relay N to open.

The N relay did not stutter it stayed full on along with the pop bumper relay on the play-field, the stepper coil plunger stuttered or chattered.

If you want to recreate the issue move your bell closer to the striker so the coil stop on the stepper fails to reach the stop and see for yourself.

Steve.

#9 2 years ago

Is there an end-of-stroke switch on this unit? Otherwise the game really has no way to know where the plunger is nor does it care. It will send 30 volts to the coil and hope for the best if there is no EOS switch, and it would not affect gameplay.

This sounds more like a pop-bumper end-of-stroke switch issue I have seen time and time again. I don't recall a EOS switch on this unit but I haven't dug into my Slick Chick project that much yet, it's a mess.

------------------

EDIT:

The common issue with "another pop bumper firing will fix it" is because many of them share the same pop bumper end-of-stroke switch wiring and when one correctly fires, it will usually fix the one that is having issues. Or they'll all just lock on, instead. (If wired together, which was also common)

Are all the pop bumpers on Slick Chick independent? I can't imagine some of them don't share relays, there's so many...

#10 2 years ago

If Slick Chick is like North Star, then there is an EOS on the "Add Ones Unit" stepper that releases N.

Capture (resized).JPG

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from woz:

If Slick Chick is like North Star, then there is an EOS on the "Add Ones Unit" stepper that releases N.

That must be it. Nice find.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from woz:

If Slick Chick is like North Star, then there is an EOS on the "Add Ones Unit" stepper that releases N.

That schematic snippet looks similar to the Slick Chick.

Why are people looking for an electrical solution to a mechanical fix? I did that for most of the summer as I explained in my original post. It really was the bell position!

Regards Steve

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from SteveinTexas:

That schematic snippet looks similar to the Slick Chick.
Why are people looking for an electrical solution to a mechanical fix? I did that for most of the summer as I explained in my original post. It really was the bell position!
Regards Steve

ummm, because it's an Electro-Mechanical machine ... the two are interrelated. The mechanical issue was that the bell position was stopping the armature from completing the stroke and opening the EOS switches correctly. The electrical issue was the EOS switch was not releasing the N relay.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from woz:

ummm, because it's an Electro-Mechanical machine ... the two are interrelated. The mechanical issue was that the bell position was stopping the armature from completing the stroke and opening the EOS switches correctly. The electrical issue was the EOS switch was not releasing the N relay.

That is correct.

I was not smart enough to find it for a long time as I did not look outside the box but if the stepper had of been perpendicular to the light box I would have seen it much sooner. LOL

-1
#15 2 years ago
Quoted from SteveinTexas:

That schematic snippet looks similar to the Slick Chick.
Why are people looking for an electrical solution to a mechanical fix? I did that for most of the summer as I explained in my original post. It really was the bell position!
Regards Steve

Because your mechanical error is causing an electrical error, otherwise your pop bumpers wouldn't be sticking on.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Otaku:

Because your mechanical error is causing an electrical error, otherwise your pop bumpers wouldn't be sticking on.

This is correct as Woz also stated.

But you guys are being perhaps ....a little obtuse in your statements. If you look only for an electrical issue you can't solve this problem right? Why? Because its a bloody mechanical issue!

Anyway moving on I am a mechanical engineer not an electrical engineer so learning about electro simple EM circuitry I researched can be found in lots of places but have you seen this booklet put out by Williams in the late 60's early 70's.

http://backglass.org/williams/kordek_archives/introduction_to_coin_operated_amusement_games_wms_100.pdf Duncan Brown posted the link on RGP last year.

Its a nice handy-man book that explains circuitry and has some nice info that can help pinballer's trying to read schematics and understand what you are seeing in all EM's. It is simple and correct.

What more do you need to know about the electro side of an EM machine.

1a Undestanding Schematic Circuits (resized).JPG
1 Circuit Types (resized).JPG
3 Circuits (resized).JPG
4 Troubleshooting (resized).JPG
5 Trouble shooting example (resized).JPG
6 Troubleshooting example (resized).JPG
8 Safety (resized).JPG

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