Skit-B Predator Pinball, where do you stand?


By hassellcastle

3 years ago


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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by lowepg
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There are 137 posts in topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 3 years ago

Hi all,

Im starting this thread, not for debate as that can be found in a couple of other threads. I'm merely starting this post to see where hopeful Predator owners past/present stand. We know 250 were presold mostly through pinside, however of that 250 how many still remain after the rumors and how many want out, or got out.

If you never did any of the three choices in this poll, please do not vote. I'm interested in seeing where the buyers of this project stand.

#2 3 years ago

In still,but it is getting harder with all the talk here.
Lack of communication on there part,isn't helping.

#3 3 years ago

I am still in.

#4 3 years ago

3 of us ordered over here, and are still in.
rock or bust! We're riding it out, good or bad ending.
But we hope good of course.

#5 3 years ago

Still in, no choice it would seem by the posts

#6 3 years ago

As soon as Kevin demanded $3000 (as opposed to the agreed deposit of $250) I was out the same day he sent that demand letter. I got a refund very quickly form PayPal.

Kevin claimed he had a long list of people eager to take my spot, but I think it took a lot of stones for him to demand $3000 from each and every pre-order. That would be like if PPS demanded $6000 from every MMR pre-order 6-8 months ago.

#7 3 years ago

Jumped ship when more funds were requested......Love the theme, and Kevin....
But knew I couldnt handle the drama that was to come for my health.

#8 3 years ago

I am still in but next 2 week update will be crucial on if I stay in, especially since my job is getting outsourced at the end of this month:( I am paid in Fool. I mean Full.

#9 3 years ago

I'm in and will be until the end, regardless of the outcome. The next update will tell me if I'm getting my game or not. Hopefully this will not turn out to be an expensive life lesson. I don't have $3k I can just piss away.

#10 3 years ago

Still in. For now.

Although I'm still wondering why I don't have a direct-to-Kevin Bat phone in my toilet.

Maybe i'll ask Ted to borrow his?

#11 3 years ago

I bailed when the $3k deposit demand came. This was shortly after I played the game at a show and I was already having second thoughts based on that. The change in the payment schedule pushed me off of the train.

You should add an option to the poll for those on the waiting list to buy in.

#12 3 years ago

I'm trying to get my deposit back, same story as everyone else.... no response from Kevin.

#13 3 years ago

Everyone is in until they decide their customers are entitled to refunds. Shambles.

#14 3 years ago

Was the deposit refundable or non-refundable?

-2
#15 3 years ago

The 'poll" option is not going to be very accurate in this case.

If you want accurate then why not start a thread where people are asked to post their status rather than the ability for people not even one of the 3 options be able to cast a vote to sway whatever way they want?

From the responses of actual posters it is quite different than those that just opted to click a button annonymously. Obvious agenda is obvious...

I am obviously still in.

I know of 1 person that recently got in off the waitlist also.

Accurate count of those posting

9 still in.
3 got out earlier and got money back.
1 recently asked for money and has not gotten it back yet.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

Was the deposit refundable or non-refundable?

I don't believe it should matter since the games were promised shortly after the deposits or beginning in 2014. Kevin did not ship any games so IMO the deposits were taken in bad faith, or under false promise of delivery.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I don't believe it should matter since the games were promised shortly after the deposits or beginning in 2014. Kevin did not ship any games so IMO the deposits were taken in bad faith, or under false promise of delivery.

Kevin did not ship any games yet.

I don't understand why someone would ask for a refund on a non-refundable deposit.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I don't believe it should matter since the games were promised shortly after the deposits or beginning in 2014. Kevin did not ship any games so IMO the deposits were taken in bad faith.

Let's be a bit more accurate.

$250 deposit to hold spot initially.

Announcement that you needed to pay 3k total by June? 28th 2014 so part acquisition could start.
Anyone that wanted out at that time, got their $250 deposit back is my understanding.

The promise at that time (June 2014) was that you paid 3k, they would start building games (obviously has started but VERY slow), you paid remainder when ready for delivery. Part acquisition has been happening (at a snails pace, but we have seen that it is happening).

Deposits were fully refundable if you wanted out before the 3k payment. Pretty sure at 3k payment time the deal was, if you want out you get money back when spot is taken over.

At this point nothing was done maliciiously or in bad faith from SkitB.

They may be slow and may suck at communication, but trying to make it sound like or infer it is a scam is ridiculous and makes you look silly Rai. Anyone that honestly thinks this is some sort of long con does not understand how a long con works. No matter what, Kevin is a good guy and has only the best of intentions! He may not succeed, but his heart has ALWAYS been in the right place.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

Kevin did not ship any games yet.
I don't understand why someone would ask for a refund on a non-refundable deposit.

I don't understand why Kevin would sanitize his website do that it doesn't mention the machine and take down all videos and pics of the machine that he has the power to do so.

A lot of things don't make sense. Don't pass the smell test if you know what I mean.

I don't think 'non-refundable' is enforceable at this point.

IMO

I'm not a lawyer but I know Kevin has collected a lot of money for zero delivery. How long do you think the grace period should be? 6 month? 6 years? You say it's non-refundable as if they means Kevin is under no law statutes to deliver a pin in a timely manner.

#20 3 years ago

I was in and paid in full but got out last year (around April) and received a full refund! Good luck to all!

#21 3 years ago

I don't think its a long con, but if someone is worried about Kevin's behavior (who isn't?) I think it's only fair for Kevin either to prove he has the license and ship the pins or to refund the deposits.

#22 3 years ago

Much love for unique pinball and small runs, but if he can't get his act together he needs to say why and give a true timetable and see if people still want to wait or get out.

Demand letter said the games would be shipping in 2014 now we're 1/4 way into 2015.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I'm not a lawyer but I know Kevin has collected a lot of money for zero delivery. How long do you think the grace period should be? 6 month? 6 years? You say it's non-refundable as if they means Kevin is under no law statutes to deliver a pin in a timely manner.

You are not in on the game so as such, you do not have any of the current 'contracts' between those that have ordered and SkitB.

The only thing that can be called a 'contract' are the emails between SkitB and those that paid in, as to my understanding those are the only things that can be interpreted as a binding agreement and much of this has been done in good faith between those providing the money and those promising a game. Until that contract has been broken, there is no such thing as your made up 'grace period'.

No matter what, anyone paying attention knows that even if the whole thing fails, Kevin has no intentions of taking peoples money. Anyone that is thinking lawyers are needed hopefully is also happy paying all their money to the lawyers as they are th only ones that will ever come out ahead in that situation. I suggest just hanging tight if you are in on the ride. Should be under 2 weeks till we finally get some light shed on whatever the situation is. At this point, the continual freak out mentality of those not in the game is not going to do anyone any good and I am sure nobody will be seeing any communication or movement until whatever comes in 2 weeks time.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

He may not succeed, but his heart has ALWAYS been in the right place.

I believe this until proven wrong.
From what I recall years ago, and I may be wrong, the license was a "limited" one and added aprox $125 per machine. They don't like to give these out, for obvious reasons, but do. I have friends that have gotten a "limited" license to produce various posters, model kits, use of footage for a short film, etc. Studio agents don't like them being widely publicized, because they don't want a lot of people asking for them.
Again, I could be wrong, but that's what I THOUGHT was going on at the time...
...also, maybe some of the vendors could chime in here as before you produce a playfield, backglass, plastics, toys, etc...you ask to see the license. Did ALL the vendors produce these items on faith??

#25 3 years ago

Whysnow you make a lot of great points always, but you never seem to see that someon can disagree with you.

Here is something regarding deposits for goods

http://www.consumerhelp.ie/paying-deposits

image.jpg

#26 3 years ago

One of the reasons for the non-refundable security deposit is to have capital to make and ship the games. If it was to take him 6 years to make the pin, it will take 6 years. If someone wants their money back, they can sue and would probably lose.

I'm not an attorney either but to expect a refund of a non-refundable security deposit because you have concern about the owners behavior or think its fair, I don't think would make that happen.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Whysnow you make a lot of great points always, but you never seem to see that someon can disagree with you.
Here is something regarding deposits for goods
http://www.consumerhelp.ie/paying-deposits

Remember, deposits are usually non-refundable. If you pay a deposit and then change your mind about the product or service, the supplier or seller may not have to return your deposit.

If the shop goes out of business If you pay a deposit and the shop or seller goes out of business, it may be very difficult to get the product or service or your money back. Your deposit will not be a priority for the business if it goes into liquidation or receivership. - See more at: http://www.consumerhelp.ie/paying-deposits#sthash.MAmvDxX9.dpuf

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

. **If it was to take him 6 years to make the pin, it will take 6 years. If someone wants their money back, they can sue and would probably lose. **

I bet you are wrong about that. Any lawyers want to weigh in?

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Whysnow you make a lot of great points always, but you never seem to see that someon can disagree with you.
Here is something regarding deposits for goods
http://www.consumerhelp.ie/paying-deposits
image.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Thanks Rai. I may be forceful and opinionated, but fully respect that we can disagree.

I would ask what part of the contract has currently been violated?
I am yet to see any promise that was broken.

I was told, 'pay my 3k, part acquisition starts, pay remainder upon delivery'
At this point, I see no breaking of any promise or contract. I may not like the things that have transpired since I paid 3k or lack of communication, but I can not for the life of me come up with anything where the current contracts have been broken.

If anything, all aspects which have been promised have been fullfilled at this time.
I gave money, SkitB has been getting parts, some games are being built.
I have not been asked for more money nor have I ever been promied a delivery date.

Where have the broken the original contract?

Maybe I should have negotiated a better contract if I am not happy??? Seriously, I am not sure of where they have not fulfilled the written obligations to me at this point.

I should add that I have no idea on the legal matter surrounding a 'deposit' or 'pre-payment' or 'partial payment' or whatever the legal system woudl interpret this as. It really does not matter to me. As I have said, like it or not, my fate is in the hands of Kevin. Even if he fails, I will not be making this a legal matter. I trust my gut that Kevin will do everything possibl to make things right no matter what the outcome and I never sue someone that has their heart in the right place and may have failed on a dream! This was a dream I have beleived in for a long time and if it never happens and there was no lying or neglectful reason, then tough crap fro me.

This really comes down to me trusting Kevin. I will continue to trust until proven wrong or he takes away that trust. At this point, he may be on thin and unstable ground, but he has not shown me any reason to believ he is anything other than in over his head but very genuine!

#30 3 years ago

You are correct, but Kevin is pushing the limits of good conduct, he will be one and done if he keeps up his current antics.

#31 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I bet you are wrong about that. Any lawyers want to weigh in?

You don't need a lawyer, you need a judge..

Why would a seller put a specific date on when they expect to deliver. You expect them to take a non-refundable deposit and then say if we don't deliver by 7/1/2015 we will refund all money?

Look at Alien Standard Pre-order form. There are no dates of delivery
http://heighwaypinball.com/orderform/ALIEN/ALIEN-HPOrderForm-SE-NO-USD-Download-020315.pdf

They mention of the page before it the below information, but all they had to do is change the verbiage to non-refundable which is what it appears SKITB did.

Orders can be cancelled any time before the week of manufacture, and deposits refunded (minus any transaction fees applicable). Cancelled orders will then be offered to anyone on the waiting list, or the public. Orders are non-transferable

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Let's be a bit more accurate.
$250 deposit to hold spot initially.
Announcement that you needed to pay 3k total by June? 28th 2014 so part acquisition could start.
Anyone that wanted out at that time, got their $250 deposit back is my understanding.
The promise at that time (June 2014) was that you paid 3k, they would start building games (obviously has started but VERY slow), you paid remainder when ready for delivery. Part acquisition has been happening (at a snails pace, but we have seen that it is happening).
Deposits were fully refundable if you wanted out before the 3k payment. Pretty sure at 3k payment time the deal was, if you want out you get money back when spot is taken over.
At this point nothing was done maliciiously or in bad faith from SkitB.
They may be slow and may suck at communication, but trying to make it sound like or infer it is a scam is ridiculous and makes you look silly Rai. Anyone that honestly thinks this is some sort of long con does not understand how a long con works. No matter what, Kevin is a good guy and has only the best of intentions! He may not succeed, but his heart has ALWAYS been in the right place.

Your email regarding the $3000 deposit from skit b must be different to mine then. As my email states quite clearly, twice actually, the deposits are all "fully refundable" and "completely refundable" in the next paragraph.
And yes I'm still in (only just)

#33 3 years ago

A poll with more options would have been interesting:

- Still in, no matter what
- Still in, but tired of the drama
- Still in, but on the fence. Waiting for the big reveal within 2 weeks
- Still in... against my will. Waiting for a refund
- Was in, got a refund (say when!)
- Recently in, upgraded from the mythical waiting list
- Still on the waiting list
- On the fence. Not in, but if the game starts to ship, I might join

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from Toads:

Your email regarding the $3000 deposit from skit b must be different to mine then. As my email states quite clearly, twice actually, the deposits are all "fully refundable" and "completely refundable" in the next paragraph.
And yes I'm still in (only just)

Do they say when they are refundable to?

Does it mention a date?

#35 3 years ago

I am in full support of all you guys in line for the game, I just like to point out when a vendor is acting stupidly.

Kevin and Jpop have ruined it for Riot Pinball.

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from vster23:

I am still in but next 2 week update will be crucial on if I stay in, especially since my job is getting outsourced at the end of this month:( I am paid in Fool. I mean Full.

Feel the same way. I am also paid in fool.

#37 3 years ago

In till the end #10 production #14

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Kevin and Jpop single handedly ruined it for Riot Pinball.

Ok, first of all two people cant single handedly be at fault. Its like double handedly..
I swore you said it was the price point anyway. had it been in the sweet spot the orders would have been in before this has all blown up.

You have torn Kevin a new one in every thread. Not saying its not deserved but its becoming Jfj on MMr ish.
All fair points but made over and over and in each thread.

Just saying.

Quoted from hassellcastle:

Im starting this thread, not for debate as that can be found in a couple of other threads.

#39 3 years ago

14 people say they have requested refunds and not received them.

That's more than $30,000.

No one else concrned about this?

Even if all the games will be made with no issues eventually 14 people wanting out and not getting responses is concerning.

#40 3 years ago

I looked at the letter again, it did not say refundable but it did not say non-refundible either.

It did say they would be shipping games in a few short months and the letter was dated 9 months ago.

#41 3 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

14 people say they have requested refunds and not received them.
That's more than $30,000.
No one else concrned about this?
Even if all the games will be made with no issues eventually 14 people wanting out and not getting responses is concerning.

Yeah, what's the problem? I thought there was a line of people waiting to get one. It should have been as simple as giving someone their deposit back, and taking someone else's. This is just stressing people out here. Totally wrong.

#42 3 years ago

did not vote , but I was on wait list... got in,,, was down to 186 build order # , then got out /
Hope it gets made for others staying on board . Good luck,
p.s should have took whysnows bet and would have a free game here but I do not need charity yet . ] Predator may be a 2017 game at the rate it is going

#43 3 years ago

Lessons learned. If PayPal won't refund after 18 months, next time have money refunded at month 17, then put a deposit on the game again, to start the clock over.

#44 3 years ago
Quoted from hassellcastle:

Im starting this thread, not for debate as that can be found in a couple of other threads.

So much for this.

#45 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

You are correct, but Kevin is pushing the limits of good conduct, he will be one and done if he keeps up his current antics.

Potentially better said: "none and done"

#46 3 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

14 people say they have requested refunds and not received them.
That's more than $30,000.
No one else concrned about this?
Even if all the games will be made with no issues eventually 14 people wanting out and not getting responses is concerning.

I think the results will need to be adjusted.... I suspect some folks will see the poll as a referendum on SkitB in general. It this way (*GULP*) I think I agree with Whysnow that asking folks to chime in in a non-anonymous post will be a better gauge....

#47 3 years ago

( ((following for entertainment value only)) )

#48 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I looked at the letter again, it did not say refundable but it did not say non-refundible either. It did say they would be shipping games in a few short months and the letter was dated 9 months ago.

It makes sense that deposits might be considered non-refundable by default (isn't the point to lock both the buyer and seller in and provide the seller money necessary to make the product?). So I don't generally support the idea that people should be able to demand their deposit back at any time for any reason.

But I doubt a court would say that since the emails don't include a firm delivery date, SkitB can literally take forever to make the games. The agreement presumably includes an implied promise to deliver the game within a reasonable amount of time (a bit of googling suggests that's how contracts are usually interpreted). Then you'd need to show that you reasonably expected delivery within X months/years, and that SkitB has shown limited progress and is refusing to engage in reasonable communication with buyers. A court could definitely find that even a "non-refundable deposit" should be returned under those circumstances.

So I wish people would stop telling the buyers that they have no legal/moral right to expect their deposit money back. But Whysnow's right on this point: it's highly questionable whether going to court now would help much, since it would chew up a lot of money that could otherwise be used for making games or issuing (at least partial) refunds.

-1
#49 3 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

14 people say they have requested refunds and not received them.
That's more than $30,000.
No one else concrned about this?
Even if all the games will be made with no issues eventually 14 people wanting out and not getting responses is concerning.

Not concerned at all considering the accurate numbers of people willing to actually post is now>>

10 still in.
4 got out earlier and got money back.
1 recently asked for money and has not gotten it back yet.

I can guess which one you voted for though... Same shit different thread.

#50 3 years ago

Game #249, I've asked for Production Game #249 (currently in the 100s). I am patient and hopeful. This is not a grail pin for me. I'm in because it is a unique adult oriented theme, potentially with an awesome ruleset, and I love the login/tracking that is built into the software.

Kevin has put so much effort into designing this game, in both hardware and software. I have continued faith that Kevin will get these games produced.

I can admit that reading the various SkitB threads does add worry for the $3k of my money that is no longer in my hands. However, if I lose my money and I still don't get the game, it was my personal interest in the game, to support a dream of some Some Kids In The Basement, and its eventual rarity that parted me from my monies.

I will try to never again put myself in the pre-order position in which I currently sit. I still find this journey special.

It's A Go For SkitB.

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