I think the backglass is, in isolation, salvageable. Most of the egregious errors are missing. It does need color and weight work, the title characters need to be bigger and more prominent, the word "Experts" should not be actively camouflaged, etc... The thing is, that backglass is obviously irrevocably married to the style of the playfield, which, as much as it saddens me to say, should really be completely ditched. Since their a pair it wouldn't make much sense to not have them match.

Absolutely. You are entitled to your opinion, but there's a difference between, "I don't like this." and "That sucks!" The former is a personal opinion, and the latter is a somewhat aggressive judgement, often used to influence others.

Say you're sitting at a table eating with people. They serve broccoli. You could say, "I don't like broccoli" and people would think, "Ok, he doesn't like broccoli", but instead you say, "Broccoli sucks!" Now everybody at the table who likes broccoli has to feel weird because you've taken a provocative position and questioned not just your own taste, but theirs as well.

And yes, you can have an opinion on food and music, but depending upon the nature of your criticism, whether you have any experience with food or music will make your opinion more or less credible to others.

For example, if you aren't a musician and you think the Beatles suck, it's easier to dismiss than, than if you are an accomplished musician and share that same opinion. It's very hard to find any successful musician who has respect in the industry who doesn't respect the Beatles' contribution. Not all opinions are of equal weight. But yes everybody is entitled to an opinion. The degree to which those opinions should be respected is not unconditional - it's based on where that opinion is coming from.

lol, come on now. It's in huge, clearly readable letters on top of every single game with an eye catching and unique light show, you literally cannot miss the name of the game. Try selling a White Water without the topper and see what kind of value you get for it too. That a silly example, and I would invite you to please name another "celebrated game" let alone another at all that doesn't have the name, since you made it sound like there are more.

The name of the game is important. I'm cool with the grammar on Experts of Dangerous, I think it's funny, it's not a bad name. Make it so people can see it. That's just design 101, you don't hide it.

Well first of all the critiques haven't been "they're too small". So that's a specious argument. But if you did make them larger you just have to make the art cool.

I posted that "Bond style" example earlier, if that was the art no one would have been "oh they're too big" because it was a great drawing and looked slick. Now that was just an example, it obviously doesn't fit the theme, but if the game was "Jamie and Adam Gadget Super Spies" it would have been celebrated. With maybe a few snickers, but hey, spy shit, it works.

We'd be sitting here speculating what kind of spy toys the playfield would have, and not arguing about the art, that's for sure.

I like comic books. You want a comic book art package it's all good with me. Get a good comic book artist.

I agree with you. I think the logo is not prominent enough. But suggesting it totally sucks seems a little over the top... in the annals of bad pinball art, that is quite good in comparison.

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Thank you! I find it odd that Spanish Eyes is an oft-cited "ugly game," considering I bought one solely for its artwork. I guess art deco & flamenco dancing don't rank highly with pinbros. Eventually I sold SE after realizing it's just not fun. I'd definitely buy a Granada, which has art like SE but a much more fun playfield layout.

GAH that Rolling Stones backglass is turrible.

Not interested in this one but sure hope to have my Predator sooner rather then later.

Can't believe they did not do The Big Lebowski now that one is near 9K to get over to the states.

WTF Bad Cats is awesome.

Genesis is better than Mythbusters. Pretty sure if there was a poll it would read 85% in favor of it being gash.

I think the absolute right guys are doing TBL. I'll leave it at that

Maybe when the playfield is ready and fully populated it will be more likeable.

When i first saw the start trek play field art, i was not impressed. But when you see the game in play, that art works fine on that pin. If i remember good alot of people did not like start trek playfield art when it was showed for the first time.

Oh Jesus. God forgive me. The playfield/backglass is straight bad and really needs to be changed, but... but I have to... sort of, agr..... No. I can't do it. I just can't. Oh my god... what's my hand doing? What?! NO, STOP, DON'T DO IT!!! You'll never forgive yourself. You're edging towards the "Up" button. The Bible says I have to cut you off if you offend me!

NNOooooOOOOoooooo......

I still hate the Star Trek playfield "Art " . Can't even really call it art , it is mostly just a picture of a nebula and the stuff near the flippers that could be considered art looks horrible . I was really excited about Star Trek and did not buy it just because the playfield looks so bad .

Me too, the artwork was terrible and the lack of an LCD, the stupid laser and SM lite had me getting a refund

Skit B should poach the Vonnie D pinball artist...

As far as I can tell they aren't shipping machines yet right? If that's the case they need to be focusing on getting that going and not on a next machine.

Was thinking the same thing...

I went in to the bathroom this morning and keep staring at what I thought was EoD pin art package. Turned out to be an un flushed toilet

*Crackle* Attention students. Sorry to interrupt your day. Would seventh grader TaTa please report back to your classroom. Thank you. *Crackle*

So is JJP assembling the Predator machine or just the "Experts of Dangerous Grammar" game? Two reject companies coming together..............Bad idea.

JJP has nothing to do with predator. Its been said several times in this and other threads.

I know Python is beloved, and I am a big fan of his, but really, if y'all didn't know that was Python's work, people would say someone's 8 year old kid drew it. He was idiosyncratic, and certainly not representative of the kind of "professional standards" you're demanding Experts of Dangerous adhere to.

I'm an anti-theist, but one of the strongest arguments for the existence of an existential and transcendent force in the universe is the malevolent evil that is Bad Cats. Mere humans could not have conspired alone to contrive such an insidious and diabolical device.

As a side note, knowing full well the blasphemy I harbor, I think Python is a bit over rated, even excepting Bad Cats. I dig the Where's Waldo aspect, and the depth of theme, but I just don't care for the style at all. Lots of fun games, I just don't think any of them are necessarily lookers.

I will ask it in this thread. Is there a production schedule for Predator or any idea who will assemble it? Kevin and 3 random guys? Stern? Or yet to be determined?

When will first ones start to ship? Im still interested

Sorry my man, but you're way off base here. You certainly don't have to like it, just aesthetically, but he's absolutely representative of the professional standards I expect to see. By all means, please explain to me why you don't think so, I'd be curious to hear it.

Composition, balance, line work, use of color, perspective light and shading, a clearly readable and clever logo, there's absolutely nothing technically wrong with Bad Cats. It's even got an animatronic element, it's a great design. Maybe the retro, throwback vibe on it is turning you off, or maybe you just don't like it. That's fine. It's miles ahead of EoD technically speaking.

For me it's purely aesthetic. I recognize the skill and technique, I just don't like the style.

See, that's totally understandable. It's not even my favorite, but I dig it for what it is. But it's not a stretch for me to see how someone could totally not like it.

All I'm getting at though is that we're trying to delineate a difference between pure like/dislike, which is simply a personal choice and can be formed instantly and legitimately, and being able to analyze something from a technical standpoint.

Which admittedly takes a certain eye and experience and/or training, not everyone knows how to look at design. Which is fine! You don't have to be technical to appreciate or something or not. But it helps when you're trying to describe issues to have the vocabulary and knowledge.

It's just pinball, it's not life or death. But it's also a lot of money, and on the Skit-B side it's a ton of work and sweat and passion, and both buyer and seller would be served by having a package that was executed at a higher level.

Adam is an artist. His father was an animator.

Maybe he could get involved and help get this squared away?

Damn. I could imagine the value of this game would increase quite a bit if Adam himself could pull off a playfield.

On board for Predator, and am really looking forward to it. Was hoping #2 would be a theme I could get behind... but I am not liking this one at all.

I'll just be over in the corner, waiting for someone to make a Conan the Barbarian pin...

...but at least it IS a style! It's consistent and cohesive. The Adventures of Beret-Man & Leatherjacket-Dude Vs. The Crash Test Dummies in the Land of Unreadable Logos is style free. There's no professional design or color theory applied at all.

Why do you persist in quoting me as if I'm arguing a point counter to yours?

It would probably decrease if he pulled off ON the playfield.

rd.

This has to be a joke.

That Kiwi for yanking it?

I'm not...just having a conversation.

Wow...just wow. Well, at least they made it easy to decide on whether to buy one or not. So for that, thanks Skit-B!

I love the game. I love his irreverence. I agree with you. I'm just saying, they won't be using that backglass in Marketing 101 classes if you know what I mean.

Duuude.. really? You're lecturing people about "professional design" and color theory? FG is a funny show. And it has its moments, but it's tremendously derivative and boilerplate, to a fault IMO. Obviously you'll disagree, as will your cadre of up-voting fanboys. I will have to learn to live with that, but I'll go on record expressing in my most Stewie-like sarcastic tone... "Really? Really?"

In reference to PinballHelp's "bad backglass" examples:

Flash: Yes, truly awful. Still sold 18k.

Genesis: Title is legible, nice kerning on the font. Color is consistent, photography is well done. Your eye is drawn vertically up towards the title. People hate the context of that backglass, but as a composition it's fine.

Hardbody: Pretty bad. No style, form or function. Neon color scheme is at least relevant to time it was made.

Bad Cats: Squint your eyes. Squint REALLY hard (I call this the Squint Test) Can you still read the title? Of course you can. And it's hand-drawn by The Python.

Rolling Stones: Perfectly acceptable layout. The band forms an arc, drawing your eye down to the title which is clearly legible in contrast with the background. The spotlights also direct attention inward. The blue background and mostly yellow accents on the band compliment each other.

Photoshop doesn't make art bad. Poor design makes art bad.

Angus Young face on AC/DC Pro truly terrifying, I agree with that!

Yep!

rd.

It's really easy to make the logo more prominent though... Assuming that graphic is a layered PSD file, you simply take the logo layer and add a drop shadow or glowing outline, feather the contrast around it and it could be made to stand out prominently.

What I find neat about the design is that it does appear almost 3D-like. I think if the backglass was done in some kind of layering, it would look really, really neat. Making the logo stand out more is really easy to do, and yes it does need to be done. I think people are giving those guys too hard a time when apparently that content wasn't even supposed to be made public yet.

That's what this design needs, some drop shadow.

I wish. Talk about the busiest man on the planet. Between filming Mythbusters, working with the Tested.com crew, creating movie props, etc, he has no time. He's definitely one of THE most creative people I've ever seen on the internet.

Check out Adam Savage's Ted Talk:
https://www.ted.com/talks/adam_savage_s_obsessions

Also check out his 'one day builds'
http://www.tested.com/search/?term=one+day+build

I think the Mythbusters are the best popularizers of science today. It would be a great theme if they could acquire the license.

Wow. You know, I was going to bite my tongue, but you're really starting to turn this into something personal, and it's unflattering. Regardless what you think of Family Guy as a show Rarehero is a director (that means something a little different on animation than it does on a movie) on a very successful and professionally done animated show. As well as all the other things he did prior to that. He's pretty well qualified to speak about layout, and as I noted before, has a particular strength when it comes to drawing and action and motion, since that's obviously what animation is all about.

So yeah, I'm sure he understands color theory just fine. Maybe you do too, I wouldn't presume to know, I haven't the foggiest clue who you are and what your experience is.

I'm not all that inclined to trust someone who's idea of fixing that logo is out outline and drop shadow it, but I'm not throwing stones at your background. Just that particular idea, because it's not a good one (and is almost never the answer).

Uh. It was presented publicly, and then Kevin linked up the official YouTube videos. Pretty sure that means it's supposed to be public.

If you like the design that's okay! But don't lash out at people who think it looks like ass.

This thread is about Skit-B's game...you wanna get personal & make it about me, Mike? OK...but my Emmy disagrees with you.

Find one of my episodes. Break down the visual faults for me. Find instances where I have poorly composed a shot, did something visually incorrect that detracted from a joke, filled a frame with tangents, or find me a scene where the color looks terrible. I didn't create the show, I didn't design characters or the look...but I know how to work with the elements available to me to make it professional & functional. Now - I know some of my eps have screw-ups - that's the nature of a TV production schedule...but I stand by my work. If you care to give me specific constructive criticism on my work - go ahead. If you're just going to insult me to insult me, in service of defending this game's clearly awful art package, then F off.

Yes he is and since he's a professional. Here are the awards, maybe not all, that the show has won:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0182576/awards

Since you want to preach to, and attack, someone of his caliber where did you get your art training and what's your list of credentials?

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This took me about 20 minutes as an example.

"Experts" is the "engineering" font, but with a thicker stroke so it's legible. There is blue edging to give the idea of a blueprint, but the letters themselves are white so they stand out. The text is sheared 10 degrees to match the angle of "Dangerous" There would probably also be "action lines" coming out of "Experts" to make it seem like part of a drawing.

"Dangerous" uses a more jagged font, with the Indiana Jones slant and shading. It implies danger, irregularity, and looks cool!

This logo could be blown up to fill the sides of the cabinet, or placed inline with graphics above it.

Imagine if all the critics of everything in here got busy making their own pins. Just imagine.
How much better would it be?
I bet it's feels so much better looking back, after the years are all done, having been a creative force rather than being just another judge.

So much critique in this place, so little action.

What don't you do well?

Yep. But the critiquing will continue while the money is being counted. Big money in pins, remember that, Rembrandt?