(Topic ID: 327764)

Skateball, flipper switch issue

By ktuhde

1 year ago


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  • 24 posts
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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Rikoshay
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#1 1 year ago

Hi everyone. I need some help from people with some more experience and knowledge on early Bally SS. I recently did my first playfield swap on a Bally Skateball. Overall it went well. And I worked out a few issues after I got it completed and back up and playing. I am left with one issue that I can’t figure out. I have looked at this forum and some other online sources, but I need help.

Issue: The right flipper causes phantom switch issues. Example: points score when hitting the flipper while the ball is still in the shooter lane. Maybe 1 out of every 10-20 flips. If you rapid hit it occurs more frequently. Also sometime it will tilt and sometimes the top left pop bumper will fire when the right flipper is hit. Every once in a while the game will reset and a siren like sound comes out of the speakers?

When you play a normal game it doesn’t happen often, but if you rapidly hit the right flipper it happens. And during normal play I will get a reset every so often. The last three times it reset it was immediately after the ball hit the left top through lane (twice) and once when I hit the right flipper button. But it will go games when it is fine.

Some background

When I got the pin the right lower flipper switch (at the flipper) had a hack in the wiring. Picture below.

The two farthest left (orange/white and brown) wires were cut off the switch and connected together with a nut.

When I did the playfield swap I put a new flipper switch with dual EOS that I believe is the correct part.

My current thought is questioning if the cabinet flipper switch on the right side is incorrect. The right one is a double stack and the one on the left cabinet flipper switch is a single. Should the right switch be a single? I can’t seem to find a picture or info in the manual or parts catalog on planetary website. Did someone put a double switch there and that is why they hacked the two wires at the flipper switch?

Can someone confirm if the pictures cabinet flipper switch is correct in the picture?

If I am totally off in my thought, please point me right direction.

Just fyi, the mpu, sdb, and lamp board are new weebly nvram. I also ran the switch test and nothing is open. And I clipped the cap at the tilt bob.

Pictures are of how the flipper was wired originally. How it is now. Right cabinet flipper switch and left cabinet flipper switch.

Thanks for any help and guidance

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#2 1 year ago

Could be multiple issues. Try a few things to narrow it down.

First, start a game and bang around the playfield with your fist. See if any switches trigger with vibration. If so, open the gap a little.

Second, it might be good to replace all the caps on the switches just in case. If you didn’t as part of the swap, it could be one or more faulty caps. And, replacing them isn’t a bad idea anyway since old Bally caps often fail causing weird problems.

If the situation still occurs, play some games and see if you can pinpoint when the reset occurs. See which switches are closed and report back. It could be a faulty diode somewhere.

#3 1 year ago

I think your EOS switch is on backwards. Shouldn't the lane change switch be on the outside edge, away from the coil? So when the crank pushes against the switche stack, it opens the EOS switch first, and closes the lane change switch second? It looks like how you have the switch now, the opposite is happening. The switch with the fatter contacts is supposed to be wired for the EOS switch.

#4 1 year ago

The wiring looks ok to me. The reason for a double stack on the right cabinet switch is because it’s a dual right flipper game and the lane change switch cannot be stacked with the EOS switches. Your old secondary EOS switch was missing a contact, so they tied the wires together to get the upper flipper to work.

From the clues you gave, my guess is the diode on the upper rollover button is shorted.
Test #1: hold the right flipper button in and press the top left through lane switch. If the game resets, the diode on the upper rollover button is shorted.
Test #2: hold the right flipper button in and trigger the bottom pop bumper. If the left pop bumper fires, the diode on the upper rollover button is shorted.

#5 1 year ago

I forgot to mention to hold the upper rollover button down when performing these tests.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

I forgot to mention to hold the upper rollover button down when performing these tests.

Thanks for the info. I will try this. I need to order some caps and diodes to hopefully get this all sorted out. And learn a bit more about reading schematics and matrix. I can definitely say that the right flipper, left pop, and #1 upper rollover are involved. I’ll report back what I find. Thanks again.

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#7 1 year ago

This may help:

#8 1 year ago

may not help your issues, but that dual EOS needs to be corrected by all suppliers that sell that configuration.
it is incorrect for Bally games that have more than 2 flippers.

your left hand cabinet flipper switch may work, but the current involved requires heavy duty contacts to cope properly.
your right hand flipper switch contacts are severely pitted and should be changed, just a suggestion.

the first switch closest to the coil is the EOS switch and should have tungsten tipped contacts, NOT standard contacts, as you notice are on the second switch contacts that are for engaging the upper flipper.

lane change switches for a Bally are in the cabinet stacked on the flipper switch. These do not require heavy duty contacts but will still work fine if they do.

you could try correcting the set up for a start? also try adding some spark suppressing capacitors on both the flipper switches in the cabinet and the switches on the flipper assemblies. This is not for everyone but once done you help give long life to your expensive tungsten tipped switches and reduce noise from the spark generated when the capacitors aren't installed.

regarding the switch test, and it's probably a typo, but the switch test shows 'closed' switches, not open ones.

i mean no offence how my post may sound, but it's a shame that sellers of parts get it wrong sooooo many times and it's left up to the buyer to sort out, and if you're not any wiser in the sense of what correct and what isn't the you end up suffering through no fault of your own.

#9 1 year ago

I not trying to hijack this thread, but I have a question related to it. I'm having some switch matrix issues on my Centaur causing some weird behavior. I know this because I recently purchased a Weebly switch matrix tester, and found the entire column number 8 to be nonresponsive using the switch matrix tester, but all checks out okay when manually closing the switches in the column. I watched that switch matrix video suggested by Nokoro but I'm still a little sketchy trying to follow it. My question might hopefully be a simple one. When checking for a "short" in a diode, does this mean that something metal is touching it, or is a shorted diode discovered only by using a multimeter? Just trying to understand it all. @ktuhde, you're more ahead of the curve than me maybe, but I'm getting there hopefully. I'm learning a lot from this thread! Thanks!

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

may not help your issues, but that dual EOS needs to be corrected by all suppliers that sell that configuration.
it is incorrect for Bally games that have more than 2 flippers.
your left hand cabinet flipper switch may work, but the current involved requires heavy duty contacts to cope properly.
your right hand flipper switch contacts are severely pitted and should be changed, just a suggestion.
the first switch closest to the coil is the EOS switch and should have tungsten tipped contacts, NOT standard contacts, as you notice are on the second switch contacts that are for engaging the upper flipper.
lane change switches for a Bally are in the cabinet stacked on the flipper switch. These do not require heavy duty contacts but will still work fine if they do.
you could try correcting the set up for a start? also try adding some spark suppressing capacitors on both the flipper switches in the cabinet and the switches on the flipper assemblies. This is not for everyone but once done you help give long life to your expensive tungsten tipped switches and reduce noise from the spark generated when the capacitors aren't installed.
regarding the switch test, and it's probably a typo, but the switch test shows 'closed' switches, not open ones.
i mean no offence how my post may sound, but it's a shame that sellers of parts get it wrong sooooo many times and it's left up to the buyer to sort out, and if you're not any wiser in the sense of what correct and what isn't the you end up suffering through no fault of your own.

Thanks for this info. I appreciate any info and don’t take offense to anything. It’s hard when you don’t have much experience and have to assume the previous work is done right. Which we know is not always true. I have ordered parts to work on caps and diodes for the switch matrix issues and new switches and caps for eos and cabinet flipper switches.

Once I get the parts in I may post some questions about where to attach the caps on the flipper switches.

#11 1 year ago

Thinking on it my post wasn't really helpful, so these are the correct dual EOS switches that go on flipper assemblies for Bally & Stern with more than 2 flippers: https://www.euro-pinball.de/en/a365-00046-0000-dual-eos-switch-assembly.html

These are the correct cabinet flipper switches without the lane change switch: https://www.euro-pinball.de/en/Cabinet-flipper-switch-Bally-ASW-A10-41.html

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

I forgot to mention to hold the upper rollover button down when performing these tests.

I tried and didn’t get anything. I will keep working. I have some time off work soon for Christmas and ordered parts to hopefully replace some caps and diodes when I narrow down the switch causing the issues.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Dakine747:

When checking for a "short" in a diode, does this mean that something metal is touching it, or is a shorted diode discovered only by using a multimeter?

Diodes can 'short' in at least a couple of ways. A diode is basically a one way switch. Only allows current to flow in one direction (towards the stripe). If a diode is completely shorted, it allows current to pass in either direction. Need a meter to see this, but very simple test. This is rarely the case. More commonly, the diode is physically 'shorting' to something else. Standup targets close together and drop targets are likely suspects. All it takes is a singie strand of wire to cause an issue, so use good lighting to inspect switches.

You didn't say if the game is having issues while playing.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from phishrace:

You didn't say if the game is having issues while playing

Thanks for the feedback. It plays normally, but certain switched lamps are lit and saved balls are achieved by rollovers that aren’t supposed to trigger those actions. Also, nothing happens in the two gameplay situations where balls are supposed to be deployed from under the playfield trough. I can message you privately if you want, so as not to distract from the OP’s issue?

#15 1 year ago

Probably better to either start a new thread or post in the Centaur thread. I will quickly suggest you check the dip switch settings on CPU board and settings for high score (replay or EB?).

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/centaur-clubmembers-only

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Probably better to either start a new thread or post in the Centaur thread. I will quickly suggest you check the dip switch settings on CPU board and settings for high score (replay or EB?).
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/centaur-clubmembers-only

Already on that thread. Topics get buried quickly tho.

Dip switches are fine, and definitely a switch matrix issue. I’ll probably start a new thread, but thanks for the input.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Dakine747:

Already on that thread. Topics get buried quickly tho.
Dip switches are fine, and definitely a switch matrix issue. I’ll probably start a new thread, but thanks for the input.

Should have started a new thread. This confuses people when they come back to read old threads for help, especially in your case, has completely different issues than what the OP needs help with.

Also when you start your own thread, include a picture of your MPU board. There are different MPU boards available too, so that will help to know as well if you have an original Bally or aftermarket board.

#18 1 year ago

I have ordered capacitors for the flipper cabinet and eos switch to see if that helps with the arching and maybe phantom pop firing on the left pop. (I will also be looking into the switch matrix issue, but maybe I have both?)

Can someone give me guidance or pictures on where I connect the capacitors? I have searched for pictures and read a few forum post, but I don’t see clear pictures or instructions of the correct way to install them. Which points to solder them to?

1. Cabinet flipper switch. (I have new switches on order and replace the old ones currently on there) So I have the left cabinet switch that is single and the right switch that has the lane change on the double. I assume I am putting the capacitor just to the two contacts for the flipper, and not the lane change? Is that correct?

2. For the switch at the flipper mech, am I just putting one on the contacts closest to the coil? Or do I need to do something with the second set (farther away from the coil) that engage the upper flippers? Or am I way off in my thinking?

3. Should I put capacitors on the upper flippers? I didn’t even think of this when I ordered parts, so it would require another order.

For the switch matrix issue I am going to take some videos of some games to try to get more info. It does score and make a sound when the flipper makes a wrong switch open/close. I think since most switches have different sounds and score associated I may be able to narrow it down if I can re-watch what happens on video.

What I know for sure is the right flipper makes the left pop fire once in a while during normal play. If I repeatedly hit the right flipper it happens more frequently.

I also know something is causing a false slam tilt. I know for sure that twice the ball rolled over the “1” upper lane roll over and it happened. And I know for sure hitting the right flipper made it happen once. The rest I don’t know, but maybe making a video and reviewing it would help.

Thanks for the continued help and advice. I don’t mind the phantom pop, but I can’t live with random slam tilt or reset.

Kevin

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#19 1 year ago

If you can burn eproms for your game you can get the bally test chip from pinwiki:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/images/3/36/Sco_testrom.zip

This will show ALL the closed switches in switch test, not just the lowest numbered one, so you can close selected switches and see which set activates the slam. You likely have a backwards or shorted diode somewhere in the wiring that is causing this.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

If you can burn eproms for your game you can get the bally test chip from pinwiki:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/images/3/36/Sco_testrom.zip
This will show ALL the closed switches in switch test, not just the lowest numbered one, so you can close selected switches and see which set activates the slam. You likely have a backwards or shorted diode somewhere in the wiring that is causing this.

This is the first early ss pin I have done more than basic cleaning or replacing single parts. So I have limited experience and knowledge. Learning as I go and reading online.

I have a new nbram.weebly mpu. Should I buy the switch matrix tester from there to help diagnose this?

#21 1 year ago

The weebly mpu might have that test ROM built in. If not a couple of the other Roms on it should have the extended switch test too.

#22 1 year ago

Your capacitors connect across the switch itself, both in the cabinet and the EOS, solder directly to the solder tabs for each contact blade.

Only for the high current, not needed on the lane change switch.

1 week later
#23 1 year ago

I added capacitors to the flipper eos and cabinet flipper switches. And I changed some diodes and capacitors on playfield switches. It seems to have reduced the phantom pop bumper, but not completely eliminated it. It’s not very noticeable in regular play. I also haven’t had a false slam tilt or reset since. Not sure if that is dumb luck and chance, or if it has solved that issue for sure. I’ll keep playing and see.

Eventually I would like to eliminate the phantom pop bumper. But I can live with it as long as the slam tilt/reset doesn’t happen.

#24 1 year ago

Great news, well done!

I've read about phantom coils energising and what I read was put down to that Bally bunched all their wires together and at random times the cpu picks up noise or a signal nearby as a closed switch and responds accordingly.

People have gone to the length of isolating coil power wires from the loom with it being better to no phantom coils going off at all.

I don't believe it's luck, adding a noise suppression device is such as a capacitor is what Bally did and is documented in their manuals/schematics, and it makes sense in such a volatile area with so much going on at the same time.

Regarding the resets, how close to 5VDC is the machines 5VDC supply and at various test points?

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