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(Topic ID: 190585)

Sinbad Playfield Restoration (Fail and Recovery!)


By quinntopia

3 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by quinntopia
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#1 3 years ago

Hello everyone!

I'm new to pinball and am now the owner of my first machine.

And I have the bug!

Of course, growing up in the late 70's / early 80's pinball was such a huge part of our recreation that I always thought and dreamed of owning my own machine.

Fast forward about 40 years and I have one!

This is a cool forum as it's been great to see all the other stories, machines, projects and LEARN a lot about how these machines work.

And, of course, how to fix me up!

And that's where my little post here comes in.

So I wasn't even really looking for a pinball machine and really had no idea about what kind of machine I would want or what to look for when purchasing.

So basically a dumb newbie!

Anyway, an email I get from a local auction house that usually has restaurant or industrial equipment featured actually had an auction a few months back with some arcade equipment. I thought this could be interesting so I browsed the listings. Most of the items were non working driving games from the past couple decades, but there was one pinball machine! A Sinbad from Gottlieb!

The description on it said "lights up, needs work" and that's it. The photos were a couple exterior shots and it looked pretty clean. Of course knowing what I know now I would have asked or wanted to see in the backbox, the cabinet and playfield close ups, but I didn't know what I was doing! LOL!

All I knew was that there was a pinball machine that looked cool at a local auction. So I checked in with the boss and mentioned to her that "hey I got a birthday coming up and you want to know what to get me, so.....". Well she took one look at the photos and told me to go for it!

I mean, these old pins look amazing! What color! What graphics! So with her support I submitted a bid.

I ended up winning at $425.

At the time I thought I did well. Well, here's where I think the learning process begins!

Once we got there to load it up I first saw why it "needs work": an absolutely empty backbox! No power supply board, no display board...nothing! Fortunately everything else is there, but it looks like I'll be learning a lot about how these machines work (and spending a lot of time reading about Gottlieb System 1's!).

Of course once I got the machine home and could spend some time looking it over the list of things to fix started to grow.

I'll mainly focuse in the playfield as that's the most time consuming, but I also had to de-rust the legs, get new bolts for the legs (only had 1 bolt for each leg), rebuild all flippers, rebuild pop-bumpers, remove some creatures nest from the drop-target box on the underside, order new rubber, fuses and LEDs.

Oh yeah, and while the flaking on the backglass wasn't terrible, I did find an almost perfect back glass from Johns Jukes that will replace the original.

And I can't forget...ordered a P1-4x from Pascal for when it's all ready to go back together.

But that day is still in the future. Marco specialties and others have been getting a lot of orders from me and my little $425 "deal" is now at least twice that.
For a Sinbad? That's probably a terrible investment, but it's more a personal pride thing now and must be seen through.

Before I go, I'll mention the obvious that vid1900 's extended mega post on playfield Restoration has been like nightly reading for the past two months! I only hope that in the end what I create is at least of passing quality!

#2 3 years ago

Okay, so here's the playfield situation for Sinbad:

The worst is this very large, very noticeable roughly two inch area where the paint has been worn down to the wood::

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#3 3 years ago

The other playfield issues aren't as bad and are mainly wear at the top of the playfield where it's not as noticeable, but when combined with the REALLY noticeable worn area in the main playfield, I knew it would bother me and it would need to be fixed.

And I also knew that continuing to operate this game with those exposed paint areas it would only get worse, so it was up to me to try and resolve this problem and prevent Sinbad from going to the trash heap before his time!

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#4 3 years ago

I briefly considered not bothering with attempting a restoration and looked into a playfield swap of some sort. But nothing was popping up when I searched and from what I can tell they are a pretty price!

My biggest concern was not merely the repainting, but the idea of removing the playfield parts and the whole issue of how to clearcoat was another thing I really didn't want to deal with.

But I read some posts where people built frames to protect the playfield bottom while removing all the top side parts.

Okay, I can do that! As long as I don't have to get into removing all the stuff attached to the bottom, I think I can handle it!

But there was still the clear coat question. Hauling around a playfield attached to a frame to an auto paint shop seemed really annoying.

And the more I read, the more I realized that with the sort of repair I would need (adding decals, repainting multiple adjacent colors) it wasn't really just ONE trip to get clear-coated, but many! Argh!!!

I researched some other solutions like the Varathane option. Yeah, I could do that. But the more I read, it seemed like the 2k automotive clear coats offer the best long term strength and appearance.

I felt stuck!

Then I came across a post discussing something called Spraymax 2k.

Hmmmm..... dangerous. Toxic. Difficult to use. But....it might just be what I'm looking for.

But still... it would be expensive and dangerous to use this stuff repeatedly between my touch ups.

Of course then I read about Spraymax's 1k product AND that it is perfectly suitable for putting the 2k on top!

Viola! I had a plan!
So, I removed (with great terror) everything from the top, built my frame, plugged all the holes and time to get to work!

#5 3 years ago

Playfield removal...scary. Removing the stars from the star rollovers was probably the worst. Mentally the thought of pulling out the wood side rails or lane guides was a mental barrier, but it went okay.

As others have advised, I took a lot of photos (up to 300 now! Yikes!) so I can have some chance of putting it back together correctly some day!

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#6 3 years ago

With everything removed I could really see what needed to be repaired. The yellow was the worst, but also orange, and the aqua blue.

I will also repaint the white. About the only color that won't need repainting is the magenta.

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#8 3 years ago

To protect all the stuff underneath the playfield from paint and clear coat and other debris, I used blue painters tape and some foam material for holes.

One trick for the rollover switches was to cut the fingers off of rubber gloves, and gen wrap the finger portion over the rollover. The material fills most of the hole, and with the rollover protected a little tape holds the switch down inside the playfield so I can sand/paint over it.

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#9 3 years ago
Quoted from TxJay:

Very nice, I am about to start a Sinbad restore myself. I'll follow your progress. Good luck!

Cool! I might need your help too! It's only been a few weeks since I removed the playfield parts and in already worried I won't remember where they go!

Luckily I took a million photos, but still.

One thing I discovered about Sinbad is that it was probably one of the largest production games out there during this era. That means they are not too rare, but that's probably a GOOD THING on a first attempt at restoration!

Kind of like the VW bug of pinball machines!

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

What's with the space between the sentences/paragraphs? Do you speak like that, with an emphatic pause?
I mean, it is Sinbad...
so I believe it.

Yes! I tend to be verbose too. When I write I think of what sounds best if I was telling a story to you directly. It comes from years of writing ad copy I think.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from pacmanretro:

Clear coats typically have a lot more over spray cloud than you would realize. Your going to really want to be careful with every single bottom piece or it could become a serious pain later...

Unless the clear coat gets in through a gap I missed, I should be fine. The entire area is sealed off: topside holes, all four sides and the bottom.

My playfield resembles a large casket right now!

But I appreciate your warning! I had to weigh the risk of screwing up the wiring harness and coils by removing them versus the chance of some spray fouling a switch or socket or worse.

Eventually I'll post the results right here!

#20 3 years ago

Here's a photo of my playfield "casket".

I'm also fortunate that I can do all this spraying in a ventilated but enclosed shed. Not sure I would even attempt this if I didn't have this place to work on my playfield!

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#23 3 years ago

Nothing special but here are the "tools" I've been using so far:

Spraymax 1k
Createx paints
Paasche air brush (I've had this for years so the idea of air brushing wasn't too scary for me)
And sandpapers, naphtha, etc...

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#24 3 years ago
Quoted from pacmanretro:

And the pics are there by the time I submitted my post

LOL! Yeah I've seen others building these frames. I didn't want to, but it was that or mess with the scary harness underneath! Note that some parts are removed (I already removed and rebuilt all four flippers, so they are not attached until this is all done).

#26 3 years ago

What might be my first mistake was putting some bondo in a few of the worst gouges or depressions.

Have you ever read so many posts or tips that you THINK you know what the right thing is to do only to go back and read another post that says DON'T do that thing? That's how I feel with bondo!

Man it is scary putting this on a playfield!

Anyway, I now have a fear that in a few years the wood and bondo will separate and I'll have another mess to deal with.

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#27 3 years ago

I won't go into all the different steps for sanding. Basically I followed the procedure laid out in Vid1800's post.

So after getting the original playfield as clean as possible (many, many Naptha wipes) and sanding the bondo and the entire playfield lightly but thoroughly to give it tooth and make it as "clean" as possible, it was "do or die" time!

I've read a couple of nightmarish posts about the first coats of clear creating a nightmarish wreck of playfield so I also waited for a decently warm, and relatively low humidity day to apply my first coat of the Spraymax 1k (which can be trying here in the Seattle area!).

Please note that I used a automotive spraying mask, goggles and gloves even for 1k. This stuff is NOT your standard Krylon and should be taken very seriously!

Standard approach: first coat: light coat with 50%; second coat: same (opposite direction); and a thicker third coat. Between each adding tooth and starting to level out low spots with 400 grit sanding black, wipe with a tack cloth, then naphtha.

I didn't get any photos of the first coats before sanding, but in addition to "locking in the paint" on the playfield I was also trying to address some pretty serious planking issues which can be see in this photo of the magenta area to the right of the "add bonus" burst. This was after a couple of coats of clear that was given an initial sanding:

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#28 3 years ago

My Restoration is obviously going to require replacing text, graphics and so forth. That would be impossible by hand, so I'll be using laser printed water slide decals that I'm working on creating. I should be able to share these here once they are done if any other Sinbad restorers need or want them.

Getting a good, perfectly scaled image of the playfield is a must to create perfect decals. My first attempt was to see if it was possible to get these with my camera. Nope. Just impossible to do!

So I broke down and made yet another purchase (it never ends!) and got one of these handheld scanners:

VuPoint Magic Wand Portable Scanner PDS-ST415-VPS-CR (Certified Refurbished) amazon.com link »

It's not perfect as it does rely on a steady, smooth handheld motion to get a decent playfield scan that is proportionally accurate, but I think it's the only way. I'll post some of these scans next (they're on another computer).

These photos are just from my camera.

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#29 3 years ago

Here's an example of the scan that I was able to get for the 'hilt' section of Sinbad's sword with the Vupoint hand-held scanner. As I am repainting the entire sword below the hilt (scimitar?) I needed to get these details scanned in to create new decals later on. I am also not going to repaint ALL the yellow, but just any contiguous areas of yellow - relying on a close paint match so it's not too noticeable.

I also need these scans to be accurate to create the decals for the keylines of the flames and inserts that have been worn away and now filled with bondo (and later to be repainted).

The scanner does show the rough spots in high clarify now. Of course, this is also after a few hits with the sandpaper so some of the loose paint that wasn't visibly an issue before is not longer there. All the more reason I needed to repaint this playfield.

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#30 3 years ago

I have some decent skills with photoshop - mostly because of my various hobbies and job I've need to learn how to use it, but I'm still no expert and need to Google to figure out a lot of stuff, but my basic plan is to convert all the above scans to clean, original-looking line-art graphics of the playfield areas I need to restore. I'm trying to create a 1 sized version of the entire playfield, but that is pretty resource heavy and overkill for what I need so I may not do that. Anyway, here's an early version of what my art looks like after having been scanned and cleaned up, but before replacing the text, inserts and keylines (which will be added in as separate layers in Photoshop).

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#31 3 years ago

Time to paint! Wait, not yet! We need to color match!

Yellow would be first. Its both the largest and potentially the most difficult. So if I'm going to screw it up, it will probably be with yellow.

So let's get it over with first.

I was able to color-match my yellow after many attempts at trial and error. For this a heat gun is necessary (or a hair dryer would work too). Createx paints are definitely a different color when dry - I believe they are darker, but your mileage may vary. So another purchase (Harbor Freight) was in order.

My yellow turned out to be pretty easy: It basically worked out to about 15 parts of Createx Opaque Yellow to 1 part Wicked Colors (transparent) Orange. They only had transparent Orange at Hobby Lobby, but it seemed to work. Its funny how a tiny drop was all I really needed to get the yellow color to 'warm up' just a bit to match the playfield.

I used some pieces of mylar (used for storing comic books) cut into small rectangles where I would test different paint combinations and concentrations of colors; dry them with the heat gun, and then place on the playfield using a variety of lights to find the best match.

Next...on to masking.

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#32 3 years ago

Masking. Cutting the frisket on the playfield is another stressful task. As Vid1800 warns biggest concern is that you cut more than the frisket and pierce through your clear coat and end up damaging the playfield.

As I have no fine motor skills or finesse, I thought this would be hard for me to do, so I came up with a 'brilliant' (sarcasm alert!) idea to get around this potential problem.

I thought I would be "smart" and trace the keylines on the playfield onto the frisket, then I would cut out the frisket away from the playfield, and then peel off the adhesive layer and apply the pre-cut frisket to the playfield. Disaster. What a mess. Fail.

The frisket is just too 'tacky' and tracing and then cutting introduces too many slight errors so that your pre-cut frisket is both impossible to lay down precisely on all the keylines. Maybe for a small or simple area, but not for the a large area like the scimitar flames or the 'add bonus' explosion'.

So I ended up adding more fisket and cutting it along the keylines the way that Vid describes. And it wasn't that bad after all (I had several coats of clear on at this point, so I was probably overly cautious). Again, just be careful not to press hard, and change blades frequently, it seemed to work.

I also used some 6mm Tamiya masking tape to fill in some of the gaps from my (already attached and still somewhat usable) pre-cut frisket fiasco. Obviously, using a type of masking tape on a playfield that has not been mentioned before is cause for concern, but since this is design for models (and not house painting) and I've used it for years, I had good faith in the Tamiya tape to be a safe bet.

Here's my 'frankenstein' masking job for the yellow spray paint (note that the blue household masking tape is only on top of frisket - NOT on playfield. Maybe it would be okay, but I'm not taking chances!).

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#33 3 years ago

First coat: My goal with the first coat was to keep it light. Let it cure, then come back with another coat (or more) to cover it all up.

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#34 3 years ago

After several more light coats, I was finally able to cover up the original paint and get a solid yellow....

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#35 3 years ago

Moment of truth. After giving the Createx some time to cure, peeling back the frisket and masking tape seemed to go okay except for two things:

1: Createx, even after curing, is still an acrylic-based paint, which can have a rubbery component. When peeling some of the sharp angles, the paint would not always want to separate at the frisket, so I went very slow and methodical not to pull up the createx with the frisket. This does make me wonder if my playfield had enough tooth for the Createx? I did sand the area with some 320 and 420 grit, so it might be that I need to let it cure or heat cure even longer.
2. As others have noticed, the Createx CAN leave a glue residue. I cleaned this with Naptha. And then I cleaned everything again and again. Once I saw that residue from the frisket I got super paranoid about getting it off for the next coat of clear/paint!

Overall, the color looks good; I missed masking a small area (which was easily cleaned with water and cottons swabs), the new yellow layer is noticeably higher than the rest of the playfield. This will require some sanding of the edges and will hopefully become more moderated with future coats of clear, sanding, etc...

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#36 3 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

You need more than just good room ventilation. The spraymax is toxic stuff. You need full personally ventilation equipment here. You don't want your lungs coated with the stuff.

Yes. Anyone who doesn't take this stuff extremely seriously should not be doing it. Even Spraymax 1k is dangerous! This is NOT Krylon!

Unfortunately an earlier post I wrote explained the ventilator mask, goggles, Tyvek suit, gloves and full on protection for this stuff (EVEN for the SprayMax 1k, but absolutely for the 2k) was one of several lost when my phone lost connection, so that important caveat was left out.

#37 3 years ago

So everything up to this point has been in the past. I've just put my first clear over the painted yellow and am now preparing to paint the orange and white areas. Then another clear, then the aqua blue. I may also have to do some magenta touch ups, but I think those are minor.

Right now the focus is on color matching for orange.

First, start with the obvious: Red and Yellow:

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#38 3 years ago

Yuck, More of a peach than the orange, I'm looking for. Note that when I first start mixing colors its a a guessing game. I try to do as much of a gradient mix between two colors to see what proportion of each is the closest. My feeling on the above is that the combination of these two wasn't going to cut it.

Next, I tried some Wicked Colors Orange. This actually starts to look a lot better I think we're getting close.

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#39 3 years ago

The Wicked Colors orange looks way too bright when wet, but gets much darker when dry.

So starting with a new set of colors to mix together I try Wicked Colors Orange, with a touch of Createx Yellow and a touch of black.

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#40 3 years ago

Matching colors when wet...

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#41 3 years ago

And then after being blasted with a heat gun...things darken up. But I think I'm getting close. The mix on the far right looked REALLY good when wet (see above post), but after drying got too dark. The center color, with just a tiny touch of yellow was too bright above, but is pretty close when dry. The spot on the left is the Wicked Colors Orange without any other colors.

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So I think the right solution is about 20 parts Wicked Colors Orange; 1 part yellow; and .5 part black. That's not based on any measurement, just a rough estimate of what I mixed on my little pallette. The black may even bo too much at .5:20 - just a tiny bit has a noticeable impact!

Anyway, my desire to start sanding down the clear and then cutting frisket's for the orange and white has escaped me for the moment, so I think I'll grab some lunch and come back to this later.

#44 3 years ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

Lunch break​'s over. How'd the orange go?

Cold feet! "Lunch" has been extended.

I think that the ease with which I matched the yellow was a ploy to suck me into this orange! Its soooo close, but not perfect.

I'm waiting a bit and will come back with some fresh ideas on color mixing.

#46 3 years ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

Color me silly but you sure seem to know all the right steps for a "dumb newbie."
Dumb luck or Decapitated?
With that big sword, I'm going for Decapitated.
» YouTube video

Luck! Seriously. Of course, a lot of help trying to follow the best practices of people like Vid1800 and others!

But there's a long way to go with this restoration and I have a lot more chance to make a mess of it!

It's funny I've actually considered creating a "process diagram" or flow chart of all the steps, preparation, supplies and parts that are needed! I do have a list I follow to make sure I am doing things in the right order. Which is my best insurance to keep me from making a terrible mistake!

#49 3 years ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

Would be super awesome of ya if ya did. Not many restores on this title. Super stoked to get my (non working) machine next week. Guess I should've already ordered the Pascal board. Not in a hurry though, still bleeding from the ACDC purchase.

Cool. I'll try and make one up. It's basically trying to follow Vids restoration post, but since that topic is like 800 posts long I need something shorter to refer to while planning my restoration!

It is kinda strange that there is so little resto info on Sinbad, especially since a ton were made and they seem to be pretty common (at least for that era).

Question for you...you've got some cool pins, what is it about Sinbad? I haven't been doing this long but seems like most people who have modern games don't care too much for older pins?

#50 3 years ago
Quoted from PotWasher:

Orange is THE hardest color to match. In CMYK printing, orange is often spot-printed because additive approaches lead to brown. Straight white or black is commonly used to make it look "orange".
Try using a B&W photo to better match the shade. The differences will stand out more. Maybe better, try taking the playfield (or closely matching plastic) to be color-matched at a paint store. Some systems will give you the Pantone equivalent. Photoshop will give you RGB or CMYK values from a photo, but they're not too helpful with orange.
My Sinbad came with loose mylar disks around the pop bumpers which wore the paint completely away. I considered colored/printed mylar, paint, and other approaches, but nothing seemed that great. Lots of wax is all that's there now. Luckily, the cupped inserts distract me from seeing the worn paint.
Also, don't mess around with the boards; just get the Pascal 'everything' replacement. It's well worth it.
Good luck!

Good info! And I can relate on the whole orange issue!

Yeah, I'm excited to get the Pascal board installed! My only concern is whether or not I'll have to repin any of the connectors (crossing fingers!). I know it will suck to have to do that because it will be near the end of the resto and I know I'm going to be impatient!

I had to laugh about your comment on cupped inserts. . I dont know if mine are terrible or barely acceptable. I want to pretend that I don't have to address that issue, but I think I'm going to have to. I'll be doing the 'clear coat drip method' I think one I get the paint and clear coat complete.

#51 3 years ago

EDITED: Note that my original plan to use Spaymax 1k does not work as planned with Createx paints (you'll see why if you keep reading this thread!) so please DO NOT use SprayMax 1k if you plan to do touch ups like am. Thanks!

Okay, I was up waaaayyy too early this morning and I thought I would take a stab at translating my notes that I've been creating to help me through this process. While this is mostly based off Vid's excellent post, it is not a subsitute. I have many of those posts (as well as other websites such as Pinrepair for other parts of the resto) bookmarket to go back to and refer to. This attempt at a flow chart is really to help me see where each step is, what supplies or equipment I need to have available for the next step, and other notes to myself.

If this is useful great! If you have some ideas on things I should change or add, let me know! This is my first time so I'm probably missing several important things (I plan to update this if possible as I learn more).

Sinbad Project Plan.pdf

1 week later
#54 3 years ago

Man, orange is a nightmare. It also made my next move very cautions. But its done.

I attempted to be very methodical about matching the orange. I primarily used Wicked Orange as my base as this seems to most closely match the orange on the playfield, although it is a lot 'brighter' and deeper than the playfield orange.

As you might have seen above, I made several combinations of colors, Createx Orange, Wicked Orange, Createx Yellow, Wicked Yellow, Red, White, etc.... I did these little test on small sheets of clear mylar. This is how I arrived at Wicked Orange as my base.

Knowing that Wicked Orange was my base, and that Createx Yellow seems to get it close to the playfield orange, I filled a small jar halfway with Wicked Orange, and then slowly started adding drops of Createx Yellow.

What is really challenging is that the colors dry a lot darker. So every time I get close, after a minute under the heat gun, I still had far to go.

I ended up getting to 40 drops of Createx where I felt the color was a good match.

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#55 3 years ago

I'll repeat something I said earlier....since I wasn't entirely sure that i would ever get a 'perfect' match, I had two plans: Just spray paint the areas that needed it (mostly the long 'flame line' on the left side of the playfield, and the large 'center flame' and the two pop bumpers) but if the orange match wasn't close enough, go ahead and paint all the orange areas.

After my first coat or two of the color that I think matched, I will pull back some temporary coverings over the other orange areas and see if they were close enough.

#56 3 years ago

After my first two coats (very light) I could see that I was likely going to have a REALLY heavy coat of orange to ensure I could cover up the black lettering and the bondo patch. This seems to confirm what everyone probably knows that Wicked paints are more translucent than Createx.

I decided to basically add a primer coat using some Createx Red, Yellow and White. I wasn't trying to recreate the Orange, but was trying to get a very opaque base down to act as a sort of a primer. So in the below photo you see a very incorrect peach color instead of orange!

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#57 3 years ago

Of course, I had to face the reality that my orange was just not close enough to the existing orange on the playfield. So the 'temporary' protection for the good orange areas was removed and the majority of all orange areas were repainted in this slight darker orange color.

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#58 3 years ago

The good news is that it's close enough. It looks redder in the photos than it does in real life. I might even assume that this is the orange that was originally on the playfield before 40 years of UV light and fading took its toll! I'm generally pleased with how it turned out, but there are some things that bother me a bit which I'll comment on below.

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#59 3 years ago

The finished orange coat. Again, it looks more red in these photos than it does in person. I am really happy with how this covered up the scars, nicks, and general damage. Finally the playfield is starting to look like it should!

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#61 3 years ago

So, a couple of comments on air-brushing Createx paint and frisket. Some of this is a repeat of what Vid and others have stated, but some of this I don't know or remember if I've read. In any case, these are some things that I need to keep in mind as they are pretty critical for my experience so far!

1. Make sure you have a coat of clear on the playfield before cutting any frisket (this is what Vid advises so do it!). Make absolutely sure you sand it before add frisket. The Createx acrylics absolutely need good 'tooth' (as Vid would say) to grab onto the playfield. If not, your carefully airbrushed coat may pull up WITH the frisket later!
2. Cutting frisket is delicate work, but its not as hard as you might think. If you have sharp exacto blades the wight of the knife is almost enough add your cut lines.
3. Carefully check that you have cut out all the areas where you want paint to go - and make sure areas you don't want paint are covered. Try to look at the playfield with a light reflection on it so you can see the different reflectivity of areas where the frisket is applied versus where you've removed it.
4. Keep your black lines! Make sure you cut the outside of any black outlines!
5. Make extra sure that the frisket is cut cleanly at all 'angled' areas (e.g. tips of arrows)
6. Using naptha after you've added your frisket (prior to paint) is fine. No problems. Just be careful and use it with caution.
7. Make sure you gently press the frisket edges to ensure it has a good seal.
8. Although I've done airbrushing before, Createx does need high pressure compared to other paints. I had my compressor set to 60 psi (I think I got that from Vid)
9. Start with thin coats, hit with a heat gun to set it, hit again. If using Wicked and not Createx, you might want to put down a 'primer coat' of the more opaque Createx.
10. Once its all done and your ready to remove frisket, don't rush this part! The paint is very 'rubbery' and if you don't carefully remove the frisket you may pull up some paint! What I've found works best is to pull frisket in the opposite direction of the edge you are pulling against. Also keep the angle you are pulling the frisket as low to the playfield as possible. If you are holding the frisket at a 90 degree angle to the playfield when removing, that could pull the paint up. Where you have little circular shapes, or narrow triangular shares (the insides of arrow points) you want to be very careful. I found that going to the tiniest tip of arrow or edge and with a pair of tweezers pull the frisket up from this narrow end I get better, cleaner pulls and didn't have any issues of paint getting pulled from the playfield.

#62 3 years ago

Okay, did some minor black keyline touchups today, but the main project was to fill/level the cupped inserts.

I originally hoped that my cupped inserts were good enough that I could avoid the drip method of filling in the insert and then sanding it down to level.

However, as I'll be putting laser, water-slide decals over the black insert circles, I know they need to be level and flush. So before any more painting or clear coating, time to deal with the inserts...

#63 3 years ago

The process didn't go too badly. I am using the SprayMax 1k for this. It is less toxic than 2k (although not as durable or strong) so i sprayed into a paper bowl, used an eyedropper and dripped in the inserts.

This is a practice that Vid and others discuss. Ensuring the playfield was absoutely level I filled the inserts so that the clear liquid would touch/kiss the the paint and area surrounding the insert ring.

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#64 3 years ago

And....I may have a major problem. As I was doing I was mentally trying to remember all the tips and cautions that Vid and others have provided on this. I don't know if it was explicit, but its probably a good idea to do this step FIRST - not AFTER applying spray paint!

So...here's what is going on. I'm waiting for the Spraymax 1k to dry, and I started to notice that the 1k liquid is having a fairly violent reaction to the yellow paint. Notice in the photos how its wrinkling? Yikes! What have I done!?

So...this may mean another coat of yellow after a lot of sanding. If that's the worst of it, that's okay. Darn!

I'll be gone most of this week for work, so I'll come back later this week after this 1k has completely cured and see what sort of disaster is in store for me....

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#66 3 years ago

Heh. Well, I think this resto got a bit more interesting. But it would be boring without some drama!

#68 3 years ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

When I posted that last night I just saw there had been 11 new posts....so I didn't see the insert pics. Wow. Everything was going so good! Wasn't being sarcastic or a dick...I just didn't see yer last post. Hope you figure that out man!

Hah! No worries! I didn't take it that way at all!!! Heck, I've been waiting for something to go wrong! I mean don't you think that this whole restoration process is really just "pushing your luck!"? With the exception of Vid, it seems EVERYONE runs into some unexpected issue or something!

#69 3 years ago

Okay, it's been a few days...and I had to leave town right after noticing the "bubbling" under of the Createx in contact with the 1k, so I spent a few days just wondering what tragedy would I find when I got back home?

Well, it's not as bad as I thought it might be, but not great. I'll still have repaint some of the yellow and some orange.

Now I wish I had mixed EXTRA so I don't have to go through mixing a new batch!

So two things might have happened: I think I missed a "rule" about applying the clear coat BEFORE applying any acrylic paints (I.e. Createx). I think the large volume in contact with the acrylic paint (even though it was cured) in the cupped inserts over a longer period of curing time (compared to a much faster cure of thin coats that are sprayed on) allowed for enough time for a reaction to take place.

The other option is that Spraymax 1k has some real issues with acrylic/Createx paints.

What makes me wonder about the 1k is that even some areas that should not have reacted (the inner orange arrows) at all because it was a thin coat, still resulted in a sort of "spider-web" sort of reaction. This did not happen with the yellow coat I might add. The good news about the orange arrows is that after I sanded them they look okay.

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#70 3 years ago

So sandpaper to the rescue! Not quite, but at least it gets me to the point to see what I need to do next.

Here's some close up photos. These were taken after being sanded, so you can kind of see little "bleeds" where the yellow paint reacted to the 1k that was filled into the inserts.

The areas requiring touch ups are about half the insert area on the yellow, and a few random areas in the orange. The worst is the yellow insert near the yellow flame.

But I noticed that I have a couple of inserts that I didn't quite fill, so I may have to take care of that before doing any touch ups.

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1 week later
#71 3 years ago

Wow. I think I'm almost done masking the blue/turquoise areas for air-brushing. I think I have almost 5 hours of frisket cutting! I started last weekend and finished today.

The reason it took so long was attempting to mask as much of the fine black lines and black circles on the blue areas to minimize either decals or hand touch ups, but I suspect it will be wasted effort. Ahhh, this is fun! ?

Going to spray the blue now. With a four day weekend and no work travel planned for maybe two weeks I'm hoping to make some serious progress.

Of course, I sort of expect "progress" as it relates to a playfield Restoration to be two steps forward on step backwards as my reading has informed me and my own experience has validated!

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#72 3 years ago

Blue is down! And I have to say, the color match was pretty perfect. Easiest color so far. And the coverage of the Createx was really good. Whereas with the yellow and orange several coats were needed to cover the lettering or the bondo fill, the blue covered it nicely. I think this might have to do with the fact that I had to use the somewhat more transparent "Wicked Colors" for orange and yellow - which I didn't have to use for the blue/turquoise.

Here's the first pass....

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#73 3 years ago

Second pass (both were light layers)

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#74 3 years ago

In this photo, down at the lower left corner, you can see the area that had the worst damage and the bondo fill. The colors don't look as identical in the photo, but to the naken eye, you can hardly tell the difference.

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#75 3 years ago

This photo is actually a combination of areas that were painted and others that were left original. I'm happy with how this turned out. I'm going to let it set for a bit longer, then go in and clean it up more aggressively and then possible spray the white and do the magenta touch-ups (by hand? They are pretty minor, so I don't know if I need full on airbrush, but it might be good anyway).

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#76 3 years ago

A little off topic..although I have a decent laser printer, there are some decals I need that have white lettering. I found a company on the web called Bedlam Creations that can make custom decals (with white, gold, silver, etc..).

Here's the 'proof' for the upcoming decal (still in the process of being created). This is at actual size, so if you need the white letters for these two areas, feel free to try using this to make decals! (the 'blue area' will be transparent).

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#77 3 years ago

Two steps forward; 5 steps back. Hey! This looks like where I started!!

So my plans to make all sorts of progress this weekend were destroyed. I was able to do some decent brush based touch ups to the yellow, orange, blue and even took care of the magenta. In a perfect world that would mean a shot of the Spraymax 1k, spray the white then the final Spraymax 2k clear coat. Yay!

But this is playfield Restoration and I'm an idiot so the above did not happen.

Instead, the Spraymax once again wrinkled some paint. Last time it was just a small strip of orange high up the playfield and it sanded out okay. This time it was the blue and it was in a very noticeable spot on the playfield, so this needed to be fixed.

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#78 3 years ago

As you can tell from the above photo, that had to be fixed. It's also right next to the orange flames. So with some sanding and a bit of Naptha I started taking off the blue. However, some of the orange started to come off! This was a bit surprising as I tried to be careful and the orange was under a thic coat of clear.

Guess it was too thin.

So.... the big orange flame AND the blue will need to be repainted.

As I was cleaning off as much of the orange paint as made sense, i was wondering what happened to my paint in the first place tha caused it to wrinkle? And why was my orange, frankly, not really that well adhered to the playfield anyway?

My theory is that the areas of Createx that are wrinkling when sprayed were sprayed too think and/or were not properly heat set.

I thought heat setting would be straight forward, but as I told you above, I'm an idiot.

I may have been too concerned with over-heating the Createx or the frisket so I was probably not getting it set. And if it's too thick, that's just even more of a problem.

Anyway, I don't really want to paint anymore until I figure out what's up with my airbrushing and the Spraymax.

So I decided I might as well fix the inserts on the yellow scimitar correctly so sanded most of the yellow back. Most of the inserts turned out okay, but a couple still had some cupping and one must have had a bubble or something as it did not look good.

So... like I said...I'm kind of back where I started! At least the top portion of the playfield is okay and I have a better idea of what to color match correctly.

Wow, these restorations are a pain in the butt!

#79 3 years ago

"Why do we fall down Bruce? To learn how to get back up."

I think this Restoration is teaching me resilience and tenacity. I will not give up. It will be awesome.

I will sand down and re clean these inserts until they are bubble free and amazing.

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#80 3 years ago

Inserts sanded down flat with all gaps sealed. Finally. It actually required three different stages of filling inserts with the 1k with an eye-dropper, letting it cure, sanding, sanding, sanding, more filling, etc... The bubble seen above eventually came out (except for a couple of microsropic ones, which I am frankly going to ignore at this point).

More updates to follow....

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#81 3 years ago

My decals form Bedlam creations arrived! They look good! Somewhat painfully, the step when I can apply them seems to be getting further away! I think I paid about $40 for a 9x12 decal sheet. Pretty much the only option when you need white letters. I went with a larger sheet to have multiple versions of the decals I need in anticipation of errors!

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#82 3 years ago

I tried some tests of various Createx/Wicked paints with the Spraymax 1k. The results are inconclusive. The below images are the before and after of various splotches of Createx and Wicked paints both heat set and not heat set. To attempt to get dramatic results, I actually sprayed the Spraymax 1k on while much of the non-heat set paints were still wet/un-cured. The goal of this was to try and determine whether or not thickness/heat-setting and spraymax have negative interactions.

The comparison of the below 'before' and 'afters' are not very conclusive. There is some 'wrinkling' and minor reactions on the very thick splotches, but I did not see wrinkling on the thinner layers like I expected. These thicker areas are basically just drops of paint, while the others are paints smeared at various thicknesses.

Here's "before":

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#83 3 years ago

Here's "After":
Please note this is not scientific. Clearly. Yes, some of the tests showed reactions, but they were actually fairly minor given the thickness. What I think this tells me is that Spraymax 1k SHOULD be fine when coated on top of Createx stuff. And yet, I'm still having some issues with my Createx on the playfield wrinkling in reaction (especially with my latest coats, not my first coats).

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#84 3 years ago

My current theory:

What I think makes the most sense isn't the Spraymax on TOP of the Createx. This seems to be fine. The above test really did not indicate anything really problematic between the two.

However, I am still having wrinking....mainly on my latest coats.

And I think that's the key.

Because I've been sealing each airbrush coat with Spraymax 1k, the layer or thickness of the Spraymax clear UNDERNEATH each progressive layer of sprayed Createx is getting slightly thicker.

What I think is happening is the 'sandwiched' Createx paints is caught between the bottom layer of Spraymax 1k and the top - as the top layer begins to interact with the bottom layer, the bottom layer expands with the 'heat' creating wrinkles. This is why I did not see it on my first few coats and now seems common as thicker layers of clear are underneath the Createx.

Here's my results (keep in mind that the standard process of sanding with 400 and wiping with naptha occurs between each of the below, but some of my attempts at heat-setting may have been too little):

1. CLEAR: Playfield lightly cleared with Spraymax 1k
2. YELLOW Createx/Wicked color-matched mix airbrushed. Multiple coats applied to cover black letters (yellow over black is a PAIN)
3. CLEAR: Light sealing coat of Spraymax 1k applied.
4, NO REACTIONS on Yellow. No wrinkles, lifting, etc... Perfect.
5. ORANGE Createx/Wicked color-matched mix airbrushed. Perhaps three thin coats to establish coverage.
6. CLEAR: Sealing coat of Spraymax 1k applied. I may have put it on a bit more heavier in some spots.
7. MINOR REACTION: First tiny wrinkles noticed in one of the thin orange arrows in upper playfield. Otherwise, everything is good. I proceed thinking this was due to too much clear.
8. INSERT FILLING: This should have been done in step 2, but I thought I could avoid it, and do it now. The dripped Spraymax 1k pulls up the yellow paint around two of the 10 inserts. Not great. Will need to fix. What happened?
9. BLUE: Createx-only color-matched paint air-brushed. Once dry, sanding and naptha wipe. Strangely...notice that naptha is actually pulling some of the blue paint off playfield! Huh? Poor adhesion for some reason. This is where my limited heat set time might have been an issue.
10. CLEAR: A coat of clear will lock it down and all will be okay.
11. REACTION: Significant wrinkling! Particularly in the blue areas on lower playfield (not so much at top). I spray from top to bottom (lengthwise) so the application amounts should be pretty close, but I may have given the lower playfield area with the worst adhesion some extra clear to 'lock it in'.
12. Starting over...blue mostly removed, yellow removed, and most orange on lower playfield removed (fixed cupped inserts, etc....)
13. WHITE: While I'm also taking this opportunity to properly fix the inserts (since reactions damage to the yellow are now irrelevant as I need to respray) I decide to shoot the white areas since I have little to loose and I want to test a disciplined application of thin coats, then heat set, then thin coat, then heat set. The white seems to go on nicely and adheres to the playfield well (Perhaps addressing my issue with the Blue in step 9?)
14. CLEAR: After 4 days (plenty of time to cure) and having gotten my inserts nice and flat, time for a coat of clear to seal some of the now exposed bare wood near the inserts and the white paint.
15. REACTION: The white wrinkles after just a few seconds of application. Once cured, the wrinkles do subside a bit, but are still somewhat noticeable.

The most logical answer for the wrinkling seems to me to be related to the increasingly thick layers of the bottom layers of clear reacting to the new top clear, causing the new Createx layer to wrinkle. I may try and test this out (do a better job than above)!

#85 3 years ago

So...is my theory about thicker 'under' layers of Spraymax 1k reacting with a new topcoat and 'sandwiching' of the Creatext the problem? Any theories?

Because if this is the case and is what is happening, I have a lot more work and some choices to make:

- Take off most or all of the paint/Spraymax 1k clear coats and start fresh. Abandon SprayMax 1k technique for touch up sequence.
- Stop applying clear coats after spraying Createx to 'lock in' colors. Instead, get a good layer of Createx to apply itself (thin coats and absolutely ensure it is heat set). Then (carefully!) apply new frisket for next color without clear. Ugh. This scares me.

The big question looking in my mind is how how of the SprayMax 1k should I remove? How much CAN I remove? Heck, I just filled/flatted those damn inserts with SprayMax 1k (ah ha! I don't have to put any createx on them however!).

Although I read in one post that putting SprayMax 2k on top of SprayMax 1k is perfectly fine, I recently read a comment from another pinner that this resulted in a disaster!

OMG..what am I into!!!!???

#86 3 years ago

One more idea. This restoration did not go bad until I started posting! LOL. Maybe posting a restoration in progress angers the pinball gods and they cause the pain and misfortune.

Ok. I need a drink.

#87 3 years ago

Oh, and here's the 'white' wrinkles I referred to above....

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#89 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I might gently suggest you switch from Spraymax to just regular 2PAC.
It's WAY cheaper, and it cures faster (before it can wrinkle the paint), and you only mix up what you need without the worry of the the rest of the can going bad.

Thanks Vid! I appreciate your time to look at my thread. I thought there might be an easy way around this, but I really don't want to repeat airbrushing and have to remove it once again. I am considering taking it to a local shop and having them do the 2PAC. Although it will cost more in the short term, in the long run I expect I will save a lot more time and frustration!

#90 3 years ago

I'm changing my profile pic. Sinbad started off full of courage and optimism. This better reflects how he feels now.

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#91 3 years ago

When Vid (the Obi-Wan or Yoda of playfield restorations) tells you to do something, it's probably wise to listen.

However, my little list of theories of what has been happening has made me curious. There are others who have had some similar issues, but I've yet to find anyone (meaning: read a port or resto) who is using Spraymax 1k and Createx in the manner that I am.

So while I am at the point where spending money on a pro 2Pac job makes more sense than continuing with the madness that I am in. I am curious. I've stopped working on the playfield until I know whether I need to strip it down, leave it as is and touch up, or....I don't know.

So I'm going to do a test. I will be testing Createx airbrushed on various thicknesses of Spraymax 1k, and with both thick and light top coats. I cut about 10 sections of 1/4" plywood, primed them with some exterior white paint (enamel) and will give each of them various coatings of Spraymax 1k (light, medium and heavy base coats, both heat set and non-heat set). I hope to replicate the wrinkling issue and discover what's going on so that others can see that this solution (my approach) does not work this way and don't also repeat my mistakes/impractical choice.

The other reason for this - when I'm all done - is to overcoat all of these test pieces with the Spraymax 2k I already have and see what reactions a 2k on 1k will have.

Here's my 'test pieces'...stay tuned for the future coatings on these...

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#92 3 years ago

So the test has been under-way. Results may be interesting, or mundane. I'm not completely sure.

Anyway, I decided to also test the strength of Createx when cutting frisket on it (without a protective clear). Remember, one of the issues I think I am having is that putting even light coats on after the yellow, then the orange, and then the blue is creating a thicker base coat. I am clearing between each air-brush color because of a fear that frisket will pull up un-cleared Createx on the playfield.

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#93 3 years ago

Spraying...yellow letters

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#94 3 years ago

The test sections after createx/clear. Can't tell if there's been any reaction from this distance....

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#95 3 years ago

And...bingo. on the heavy base coat sections I noticed a very obvious wrinkling while the Spraymax 1k was wet. It subsided as the paint cured. You can see the 'wrinkling' pattern below forming.

So, does this confirm my suspicion that sandwiching createx between layers of SprayMax 1k will cause the Createx to wrinkle? I think it does. The results are conclusive, so I'm ordering another can of SprayMax 1k (Just to test - I'm hard headed) and will apply another layer of Createx on top of this one.

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#96 3 years ago

Something I noticed while I was spraying the Creatext this time. I have two bottles of Createx yellow. I don't know which one is the more contemporary version or not. However something jumped out at me:

"For use on hard surfaces, plastic, and vinyl, mix with 4030 Mix Additive 10-30% per vol."

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#97 3 years ago

While the testing of my wrinkling problem is all fine and good, it still did not answer my question about WHY my experience with Createx was not great. The paint seemed 'rubbery' when dry and would peel off in places. I assumed this was due to improper heat-setting.

The image above shows the same information, but the bottle designs are different (notice that I've used up most of the one on the left).

The bottle with the 4030 advice for hard surfaces (on the left) has a logo that is horizontal, the other one (no mention of 4030) has an angled logo. Looking at the Createx website, the products they show have the label shown on the left - with the 4030 guidance.

Did they change? Just an update? Why would the new labels have the 4030 notification, and old ones don't? Is it possible that newer Createx paints have a different formula and need the 4030?

I have no idea.

But I will next be spraying with some of that 4030 added to see if that gets me a good, hard adhesion from Createx rather than the rubbery acrylic that I've gotten so far.

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#98 3 years ago

Wow. After another coat of SprayMax 1k (this time a very good 'medium' coat) which is already on top of several layers of various thicknesses, this air-brushed combination of Createx White, Red and Wicked Aquamarine wrinkled LIKE MAD! With the previous green coat, wrinking was pretty minor, this time? Nope, not minor at all.

Heat set/Not heat set...it made NO difference. Now unless something was BAD with the pink paint, this is bad sign (but a good sign as it may confirm my theory).

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#100 3 years ago
Quoted from rufessor:

I am almost certain that what you are seeing is the top coat of clear reactivating the bottom coat and the paint in between getting munged up and wrinkled as that occurs because it does not activate with the clear and is effectively a brittle layer that heaves with the bottom coat expanding and contracting as it activates and sets again. It's unlikely it has much to do with the acrylic version-

Hi Rufessor! Thanks for dropping by my own little topic of hell!

One thing I should point out is that this is not happening with a 2PAC. It's the SprayMax 1k (not 2k). Nevertheless I think you are exactly right.

I'm actually doing multiple layers (top, bottom, with acrylic in between) just to test this stuff out. It's interesting and a decent learning experience!

#101 3 years ago

Okay, final test. When I did the pink above-which all but confirmed one of the theories about was happening- I did not have a 'control' with the Createx on a non-Spraymax surface (otherwise I could not be sure if the paint was the issue instead of the sandwiching of the 1k).

So here's the latest test with before and after photos.

In the 'after' photo you can see the same repetition of the wrinkling. Except for the test piece that did not have any clear coat base. That section had no Spraymax 1k underneath the blue paint; just plain old white valspar.

This is what I expected to see and I think definitively confirms what Rufessor stated above and what I hypothesized might be the issue: You can't put Createx (and probably other acrylics) on a layer of Spraymax 1k and then put a coat of Spraymax 1k on top of that without experiencing wrinkling of the Createx.

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1 week later
#102 3 years ago

Having proven that Spraymax 1k is not compatible as both an underlayer AND a top coat, I have to decide what to do. Since my playfield already has several light coats of the Spraymax 1k, I need to know what the Spraymax 2k will do when sprayed over Createx acrylic paints.

This test involved another two more airbrushed layers of Createx - one straight from bottles and the other mixed with Createx 4030 hardener.

Then on top of this Createx, I applied frisket and cut some shapes (letters) on both of these (neither with any topcoat) to see how well the first layer of Createx would adhere when frisked is applied and shapes are cut.

The purpose here is to see if I can avoid spraying a top or sealing coat on EVERY color to protect the previous sprayed layer for the frisked cutting for the next color. In other words, can I Fraser and spray ALL my colors without putting a clear on top?

The photos here show the different steps prior to shooting the 2k on the 1k/Createx layers already applied.

The smaller light green rectangle has no 4030 Hardener, the slightly darker green small rectangle does have the Hardener
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On top of the two green rectangles, I also applied frisket and cut letter shapes to see how the 4030 hardened vs un-hardener Createx would perform
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Surprisingly, both the 4030 hardened and unhardened did not have any issues with pulling off the paint when the frisket was removed. BOTH were heat set however.
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Sorry for the focus on this one, but this is the end product. My letter shapes also indicate which paint had hardener in it so after the 2k is applied noting variances will be easy.
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#103 3 years ago

And after applying the 2k (remember, there are several light/medium coats of 1k on several of these sections, as well as the Createx, the only Createx without any top coat are the two rectangles with letter shapes) I finally had some good news.

The SprayMax 2k did NOT react with the 1k and create the 'wrinkling' that I've not only seen on these test pieces, but also on my playfield! This means that NO MORE SprayMax 1k will be used. From here on out its just 2k. AND...I can finally get on with the restoration!

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#105 3 years ago
Quoted from Langless28:

Thanks for providing that great DOE (design of experiments) and hopefully providing guidance for someone that was going to do that next. I read your whole thread but might have missed it, why did you choose 1k spray max as opposed to 2k spray max in the first place? Price availability less volatile?

That's easy, since the Spraymax 1k is not a 2 part clear it's far less toxic so it seemed far more convenient for intermediate coats during touch ups. I was inspired when I read that the 2k can be placed over the 1k so it seemed like I could wait until my touch ups were done and than do the final with 2k.

Unfortunately none of that will work with acrylic paint!

Im satisfied that I've found the problem and can move on with the restoration!

#107 3 years ago
Quoted from rufessor:

cool you figured it out! Your probably ok from now on out. A bit of work to do/re-do and I hope and presume you will be back on track soon! Good luck!!

Yes! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

#108 3 years ago

It was fate. A lot of work to do on this playfield now. But I'm optimistic. And then...a non-working Sinbad appears on my local CraigsList, and the playfield looks like it might be a few grades better than mine. He wants $300.

So I bite.

And now I have two non-working Sinbads.

I'm an idiot.

1 week later
#110 3 years ago

Okay, so a lot has been happening! First I got another Sinbad. And rather than posting about it, here is what it looked like.

Honestly, while I only paid $300, the guy who put it on Craig's List posted photos of another Sinbad.

Yeah. Not HIS.

Anyway, I drove 2+ hours and it looked okay, but I had serious buyers remorse during the drive home.

What am I doing!!!? What the he** is wrong with me?

Anyway. It was freakin filthy...

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#111 3 years ago

After I got the playfield stripped, I could finally see what I had underneath all that filth.

Before and about halfway through with Magic Eraser and Alcohol.

Here's "before":
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Here's after first cleaning:
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#112 3 years ago

The playfield has some similar issues to my first one, mostly planking and some ground in ball swirl that really takes a lot of the color out of the art.

On the other hand, this "new" playfield has no major paint loss and I feel a lot more confident in touching up and airbrushing this one starting with a more conventional approach (fill inserts first! No Spraymax 1k! Use hardener for Createx! Pound down high points in wood! Remove ALL stuff from playfield top AND bottom).

The harness and hardware on the first playfield seems to be better, so that will be moved to playfield 2 when this is all done.

What about Playfield 1? I need to replace some of the inserts on that one, so it's going to be a longer project. More details later.

#113 3 years ago

To be clear, yes, I have two non-working Sinbads.

Both Solid State, etc...

But... there's also a mystery and I didn't realize until I had two of them sitting side by side.

They are different!

Actually, it's just the cabinets. Look at these photos of the front and see if you can spot the difference:

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#114 3 years ago

More photos...can you see the difference yet?

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#115 3 years ago

My first Sinbad has a metal cabinet. Nothing mysterious about that, it's actually mentioned on the Internet Pinball Database that Gottlieb was testing metal cabinets with some System 1 games.

But I only really realized that the metal front to my cabinet is painted black! Is that normal for these metal cabinets for Sinbad?

I don't know! A Google image search didn't reveal any obvious metal cabinets.

Other System 1 games with the metal front are apparently painted like a wood cabinet front would be (at least of the few responses to this question that has been the consensus), and it almost appears that the photos at IPBDB website showing a metal cabinet Sinbad are painted similar to wood versions.

So you might speculate that mine was repainted at some point.

But why? Why would anythone go this much effort?

Up close, the black front is identical to other black metal areas, such as the back of the cabinet and backbox stand (including on the inside!) and appears to be "factory"!

But, it's a mystery. Is mine repainted? Did Sinbads get a black metal front? Did only a few get a black metal front?

Whatever the case, I like it. The metal cabinet is lighter and a lot sturdier than the wood one. I miss the color on the front, but the black looks good too.

1 week later
#116 3 years ago

I've been working on the new playfield, and taking some extra steps I did not take in my first playfield.

First, I completely stripped the entire thing. I said to myself "suck it up buttercup and do it right" so with the likely result being I will ultimately reassemble it wrong, I stripped it down. Took a thousand photos as a help.

We'll see.

I also have sanded it down and will repaint it as well.

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#117 3 years ago

I also bought a rock tumbler from Harbor Freight. The expenses never end.

But my screws and metal were gross. And I can't imagine putting dull hardware back on my restored playfield.

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#118 3 years ago

This is really important, and I skipped this last time. First, I am epoxying the inserts on the backside, and then I will add the 2 part clear to fill in the cupped inserts.

I'm also making sure the inserts are nice and clean on the bottom as well as checking other things I sort of skipped on my last attempt, like cleaning the crud in the star rollover inserts!

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#119 3 years ago

I also flattenened out the raised wood that appears under every playfield post. Vid and others stress the importance of getting the playfield flat. There seems to be two ways to do this: sand the lumps or flatten with a punch. I decided to use the punch method. I don't know if Vid mentions this method but I read it elsewhere. It's faster, but I kind of suspect that using a punch is to level these lumps is only temporary? Well, I flattened then a week ago and with some mild humidity here this week they stayed flat, so I think I'm okay.

I'm glad I did this as it will make sanding a lot easier.

The one thing that will happen is that the ink that was on the raised post lumps will flake off. But since I'm doing a ton of repainting, this isn't a problem.

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#120 3 years ago

The shooter lane got a lot of extra sanding too. I still might take it down a bit more before I put down my first "lock down" coat of clear, but it already looks 10 times better:

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#121 3 years ago

You can see the lighter wood areas in the above photo in the shooter lane.

I had to really sand the ball tracks down here as it was filthy and deep. I will either have to add a bit of stain (don't really want to do that) or sand down more of the wood around the ball track (more likely) to get the wood sanded areas to blend better.

As a reference, this is what the ball tracks used to look like:

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#123 3 years ago
Quoted from hepgeek:

You're my hero, man. I'da probly gotten dejected and moth-balled the whole shooting works by now. Stay fearless and optimistic.
Also, thanks for the pics of the metal Sys1 cabinet. I've heard about them but never seen one in the wild. It looks like it's still plywood on the sides and metal everywhere else? Am I scrutinizing those photos right?
If it was me, I'd customize that front metal panel with something cool once you get around to refinishing the cabinet. Maybe a rich red or gold color with some scimitars. I always though it was a shame when the front artwork is just a boring continuation of the side cabinet line work. Most of the time you only see the front, so it should be special.

Thanks! Honestly, I feel like this Sinbad restoration is something of an obsession now!

Yes, the sides of the cabinet are plywood, the front, back and bottom are all metal.

Your idea on painting the front is greatl! I hadn't thought of it, but you're right that a cool paint job on that black front would be cool!

Now you got me thinking.....

#124 3 years ago

Updated 'Project Plan'. Having learned a lot and getting a duplicate machine, I thought I would revise my original plan. No more Spraymax 1k. Also, I had too many coats of clear planned for in my original plan. Again, I don' think I need to clear between each coat of Createx/Airbrush touchups. I've also removed the parts underneath the playfield, making the restoration a lot simpler.

Sinbad Project Plan Revised.pdf

#125 3 years ago

Attempting to fill my cupped inserts with SprayMax 1k resulted in a bubble-filled disaster, and was the reason I desperately sought a replacement playfield (I will ultimately replace the inserts in the first one, but that will take several months to do and probably not able to clear coat until next summer when it gets warm enough!).

Yesterday I bit the bullet and bought REAL 2PAC from an auto shop. Using an eyedropper I filled the cupped inserts with the new 2PAC. What a difference, right?

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#126 3 years ago

In preparing for my first 'sealing coat' of Spraymax 2k last weekend, I started to do a bit more cleaning with alcohol and q-tips. I thought that I had done as much as I could to get this new 'replacement' playfield clean (as you can see from the photos above, it was filthy). I started to notice that I was getting even more dirt out that I thought was too far ingrained. So I kept going.

Frankly, this new playfield is in much better shape than I thought - it was just REALLY REALLY dirty! So I did some touch up tests with a brush on the hard to paint yellow scimitar. The good news is that I don't think I'll need to airbrush the yellow at all! Yayy!! Below is my color-matching. I think it turned out pretty good as its only possible to see it from an angle with the light glare - compare the middle with the bottom (I'm really excited because even the digital camera emphasizes differences that the naked eye doesn't). The top photo is what I started with on this replacement.

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#127 3 years ago

It's a huge relief to have two machines, but also somewhat hilarious to see what some operator did to maintain it over time. Check out the drop target replacements that were used on the 'replacement' machine! LOL.

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1 week later
#130 3 years ago

Applied base coat using SprayMax 2k. Yes, 2k. Stay away from 1k!

For a base coat, it turned out nice! No orange peel (I posted my tips on this over on the SprayMax 2k thread, but you need to have the can 6" from playfield [seemed close to me, but it worked] and laying it down thicker seems to prevent orange peel).

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#131 3 years ago

Wet sanding with a Black and Decker 'Mouse" using 400 grit sandpaper. Wet sanding is the best! If you've never wet sanded before, its so much better. All the dust and grit you sand doesn't get gummed up in the sandpaper, so your not changing sand paper every 2 minutes or putting scars in the clear!

So here's the playfield after the 400 grit sanding:

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#132 3 years ago

Ready to paint the white. One photo showing the three major stages. Before cleaning, after cleaning, and now with the base clear applied and sanded:

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#133 3 years ago

Masked for White. Say goodbye to nicotine yellow!

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#134 3 years ago

I am more strictly following others advice and doing white first this time (it was may last coat on the first playfield).

White after spraying. Three light coats. Also used about 30% of the 4030 Additive.

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#135 3 years ago

The white went perfectly. Stuck to the surface, seems hard, nothing pulled off while removing the masking tape. Starting to look much better!

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#136 3 years ago

I could probably touch up the rest of the playfield with a brush.

The one challenge is orange. Really hard to color match.

During my orange repaint in the first playfield I got close, but not good enough to blend in.

What I also noticed is that the Sinbad orange is really somewhat dull. It doesn't seem to have the same vibrant orange that the cabinet does.

So I think that I will amp up my restore a bit more and use a really vibrant, straight from the bottle, Wicked Colors orange.

While it's not the same as the original, I think it's a good enhancement. I debated whether I want to keep my restore as close to the original as possible, or maybe do some small tweaks that enhance the original look, while still staying within the limits of the original design.

Heresy?

Maybe. But Sinbads are pretty common and there isn't really any sort of collector market for them, so I think if I can improve the look within the same spirit as the original, it should be fine.

And honestly I will never get back anything close to either the time or money I've put into this project, so I have to what I think is right for me.

#137 3 years ago

Sinbad with Wicked Colors Orange.

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#138 3 years ago

Cleared. I actually started yesterday, but in my first couple of passes I noticed some places where the clear was not attaching.

Immediately I knew I missed some glue that was on the playfield from the frisket used for airbrushing. Ugh. So waited for the clear to dry, sanded it down CAREFULLY, and got the nasty glue off.

Applied the rest of the can from yesterday and another 2/3 of a can to get three good coats on it today.

Looking good now!

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#139 3 years ago

Sanded down the clear with 400 grit. Now that it's looking all milky and flat time to start painting in the key lines around the inserts!

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#140 3 years ago

There was a big hole here I patched with bondo. I tried to brush yellow over it but it's just too much of a contrast and the brush strokes look terrible. So I thought I was done with airbrushing, but looks like I need to do the yellow after all.

It's okay as there were some hard to fix and somewhat subtle planking issues in the yellow scimitar so I'll be able to fix that too when I spray the yellow.

Also, I'm pretty sure I know what color yellow gottlieb used for this playfield. I believe it's a shade called "process yellow". I had a small amount of yellow acrylic in this color and it was a dead match. It makes sense too as "process yellow" is a very standard color in silk screening (something I did a bit of a long time ago).

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#141 3 years ago

Wow, the blue/aqua color is impossible to color match! I had an almost perfect jar of paint matched to the blue on my other Sinbad playfield, but it doesn't match this one at all.

On top of that, the blue changes color all over the place! In some areas it's light blue, some places it's very teal/aqua, and in others it's more grey!

You can see my failed attempts in these photos.

I just have to keep trying!

In the meantime I put the frisket down in preparation for the yellow spray and just need to wait until the Vallejo brand "Process Yellow" arrives.

Vallejo is a European airbrush paint brand that seems to be very popular with modellers. I'm curious to see how it matches my playfield yellow and how it compares in application to Createx.

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#143 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Take the playfield to the local paint store.
As long as you can find a dime size area, they will match the color exactly.
Buy it in a quart of the highest quality paint they sell, (the cheap paint will fade fast).
They usually can't match florescent colors.

Great suggestion! Thanks Vid!

1 week later
#145 3 years ago
Quoted from tomds:

Great thread, if you get a minute can you post a picture of what you use to flatten the raised post hole areas? I need to tackle this myself but wasn't sure what to use.

Brute force!

Seriously, it seemed a bit on the extreme side, but I read this in a topic not long ago and it seemed like a good idea. I searched for it but can't find the one.

I basically found a nail punch that when I reversed had a nice 5/18" wide or so flat surface that I placed over the raised post hole area and knocked it flat. It only took one or two good hits (not a lot of force really) to get the raised portion down. I'm a bit concerned that the wood might 'raise up' again after a while, but so far it hasn't.

And they are nice and level and did not require a crazy level of sanding either.

This will definitely loosen up some of the loose paint around the hole, requiring a little more sanding to get all the loose paint off of the new flat, but formerly warped wood.

#146 3 years ago

I want to precisely (as much as possible) color match my yellow. I'm still pretty sure the color that Gottlieb used was 'process yellow' as mentioned above, but the 'Process Yellow" air brush paint that i ordered is actually 'transparent'. Whoops. Didn't read close enough.

Well, a transparent 'process yellow' is not going to help me cover some of my bad spots, so it's back to color matching.

I was able to determine that the yellow on my playfield and the Createx opaque yellow are basically off by a small amount of 'magenta' (using a process somewhat similar to the below). Since I don't have any magenta handy, I decided to mix some up with some Createx red, blue and white. Got close enough, and added a few drops to a jar of yellow.

Put a drop onto a clear piece of mylar and waited for it to dry. It looks close, but I'm not sure. So I came up with a plan.

Once dry I took photos from two seperate areas of the playfield with both my 'matched' yellow and the playfield color.

I then added these photos to Photoshop. Using Photoshops eye-dropper tool Photoship will provide various color values for the area that was selected. You can see my Photoshop work below.

But what's really interesting is then putting all these different color values from Photoshop into a spreadsheet, and then getting the average of these colors. I used the 'average' function to get the aggregate total - believing that the average of the yellow from three different spots will be more precise than any single image (lighting issues and all that).

As it turns out, I'm pretty close!

I can also see that there is one area where my 'matched yellow' is off. It seems as if its not as strong is in the "Yellow" area of the CMYK value and also its a bit low in the 'Saturation' levels of whatever that set of values is.

So I need to find a way to bring up my 'yellow' up a bit more. That is going to be hard - Yellow IS a primary color. I may try a spot of orange just to see what happens. I may also mix in some Wicked Colors "Detail Yellow" as that seems a bit more 'saturated'.

Anyway, I thought this might be a good technique for trying to be a bit more 'scientific' with color matching rather than just trusting my eyeballs!

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#147 3 years ago

I added a tiny bit more of my mixed magenta (blue and red) and ended up with a amazingly dark yellow. Then started over and added even less of my mixed magenta and came up with a yellow that looks pretty good (the 'swatch' on the left below):

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#148 3 years ago

Then I went took some more pictures (get different areas of lighting, etc..) and brought four separate photos into photoshop do the color picker test again with this new yellow.

With my first yellow 'color picker' test my biggest issue was being a bit low on yellow (-9%). I did add a bit of the Wicked Yellow which seems a bit brighter than the Createx. It seemed to work as my yellow is not off by -3% on average. Everything else is REALLY close. I think this is as good as its going to get and I'm going to go to airbrush!

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#149 3 years ago

Frisket and masking tape removed. Yellow looks good! A few more quick touch ups and a next-to-last shot of clear (it's going to be 70 degrees today and that window will be closing!)

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#151 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinslot:

Hats off to you, sir. Sinbad is an excellent game play wise, so all this work is going to pay off.

Thank you! I hope so! I know the playfield art really well now and can't wait to put it behind me and start playing!

#152 3 years ago

Decals! With most of the major colors now looking good, and my willingness to let some of the less than perfect but still acceptable blue and magenta areas go, I'm workon the last step!

Before the disaster with my first playfield, I had created the graphics for decals that included white letters (see post #81 in this really long topic!).

I already have scans for the playfield and have both text and a few graphics that will get decals. I've attached a file that has my black decals that I'll be applying.

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#153 3 years ago

The previous 'decal sheet' was created after many attempts to match the right fonts and get everything the right size. I pretty much followed the steps that Vid outlines in his topic on Playfield resto.

One thing that helps a lot is printing test versions onto clear transparency sheets (if you remember those old overhead projectors, that's what these are made for).

So testing the size/shape, look before printing onto decal paper:

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#154 3 years ago

The reason the above is a good step is that my insert circles were a bit too thick, so I went back to Illustrator and reduced the 'stroke' width to better match the real insert circles.

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#155 3 years ago

As Vid recommends, when using decals, Micro Set is a terrific way to get the decals to adhere to the playfield.

I also sanded the playfield with 1000 grit where the decals were going - again, as Vid points out and many people know, decals like 'glossy surfaces, so a light 1000 grit retains some of the gloss but also gives enough tooth for the next clear layer. I did wet sand with 400 grit in areas where there were not going to be decals.

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#156 3 years ago

After much fiddling with printer settings (decal paper is fairly thick so the paper settings need to be set for 'thick'!) I have my decals! The decals on the right were sent to Bedlam Creations for printing due to the white letters.

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#157 3 years ago

Carefully cutting everything out....

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#158 3 years ago

Apply Micro Set to playfield before applying decal.

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#159 3 years ago

After giving the decal a soak, I remove it from the water....

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#160 3 years ago

After sliding the decal from the backing paper, gently hold it in place and I use a q-tip to push out any air bubbles or wrinkles that might have formed.

If its flat, its good!

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#161 3 years ago

Decals are a great way to replace art (not just text/numbers) if you can scan the artwork are are willing to learn or have some photoshop or equivalent skills.

I was very curious about how these hand-drawn lines in Sinbad's beard would look. They look great! Unless you have the light at a certain angle, its pretty hard to notice the difference!

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#162 3 years ago

A wider view of the playfield with all decals applied. This went really well (each step in this process is filled with anxiety - I'm not kidding!) and really just required patience and care. I am almost tempted to do some more decals that aren't reall necessary because they look so awesome!

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#163 3 years ago

What do they say about applying clear coat over decals? "Fine, light mists". That is....difficult....with Spaymax 2k. Because a 'fine mist' with SprayMax 2k is...orange peel.

BUT it's still important. It's still essential!

I read the warnings on the Spraymax 2k thread a while ago, and yet....I still put it on too thick.

Pictures to follow. You learn from my mistakes. My gift to the pinside community.

#164 3 years ago

This photo shows the decal freak out. Just to be clear, I did have a coat of clear on these decals. It was a light coat (aka orange peel with Spraymax!) and as it sat for a day with this coat, I sort of assumed I would be safe with a thick coat.

Yeah, I was being impatient.

Although, I've been working on this machine since March, so I think my impatience can be understood.

Unfortunately, decals don't care. Repair work to follow!

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#166 3 years ago
Quoted from tomds:

That sucks! I've been following this thread for a while and it was going so well! I'm sure you'll resolve the issue. Will the decal be okay or will it need sanding out?

Yeah, but it was my impatience and negligence this time, so I'm mostly angry with myself!

I was able to sand one out, the others had to be completely removed or partially sanded down to get covered again.

#167 3 years ago

More damage

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#168 3 years ago

Damaged decals sanded down ("Same player" and one of the beard shadow line decals were fine).

Here's what they look like prior to clear coat. The weather forecast says it may get up to 70 this Wednesday, so that's what I'll wait for to put an "orange peel" coat (what you get when you apply it "thin" with Spraymax 2k) and then at least two more thin "orange peel" coats.

This may be the last 70 degree weather we see in Seattle area until next June so the pressure is on!

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#170 3 years ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

My guy. I absolutely ❤ your tenacity. Keep up the great work! And hurry up with this pf so I can really start following this lol..

Lol! Thanks bud. Well, check back in two months and you can almost count on the entire playfield being reattached and then some other disaster befalls me and I'll be doing damn decals and touch ups again.

#173 3 years ago
Quoted from Langless28:

Awesome work! As someone who will be doing this soon, my biggest concern is getting a feel for what a "mist, dusting, light, heavy" coat actually means. Never done any hvlp work, I would not have any idea.

Yeah, its a pain because there's really no specific way to know for sure! There are so many steps in this process it really is something you have to be prepared that you'll mess something up and have to go back a few steps!

#174 3 years ago
Quoted from Joey_N:

Keep it up! This is inspiration for me to restore the basket case Charlies Angels I got a while back. Lower and upper cabinet are garbage, not savable. Backglass is pretty typical-fair. MPU went straight in the trash - brown and that bad. However, the playfield isn't so bad and is probably easily restorable. I just picked up an upper cabinet from a Countdown, and building a new lower is trivial in the grand scheme of things. Keep up the good work!

Do it! In truth, I wouldn't go through all of this trouble if I didn't enjoy the process (even with the setbacks and frustrations) but with the ultimate knowledge that when it's done I will have restored a cool piece of history and culture that I can enjoy and be proud of and pass on to someone else to enjoy for decades to come!

I really love the overall look of all these System 1 games, and I've actually considered focusing on collecting them! Best of luck on your project, and remember that you are preserving a piece of history as well as a really cool iconic game!

#176 3 years ago
Quoted from Langless28:

Would you ever consider taking a video of your last coat?

I would, but not sure if videos can be uploaded to pinside?

#177 3 years ago

Okay, after some trepidation, and waiting for the temperature to hit near 70 degrees this week I realized that I don't need to worry abou the outside temp as I can just run my Costco space heater in my small shed that acts as a paint booth now and warm it up!

So today I bit the bullet...temp in the shed was 80, and I laid down 7 or 8 (!) light coats of SprayMax 2k. I used a timer so that my first three light coats were 10 minutes between, and all the following were 15 minutes. "flash off" time for Spraymax is 10-15 minutes so I was going for precision.

My spraying technique was to basically spray about 10" from playfield going fairly quickly back and forth (with a '50%" overlap with is typical for good coverage). Each coat was a thin layer of 'orange peel' looking clear. Hard to look at that, but I have heard it will be okay.....

Here's an observation...some of my decals were not cut right up to the ink, so the transparent decal area were visible up. By the 5th or 6th coat they started to become harder to see. You can ALMOST see some shadow in the 'Copyright' text decal. Again...I kept these coats as thin as I could!

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#178 3 years ago

Hmmm....Pinside is telling me that I'm attempting to post duplicates. I'm not. This is strange.
So...no more photos for now. This is annoying.

(I'm going to try and sneak the photo into this post after I created it and use the edit feature. If you see a photo below, you'll know it worked!)

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#179 3 years ago

You can almost see the decal edge here...

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#180 3 years ago

And here's the playfield. I need to confirm whether or not I need to sand this before applying my final medium/thick coat. The normal thing is to sand 'orange peel', but a medium/ thick coat could 'flatten' it all out anyway. We'll see!

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#183 3 years ago

Allright, I have learned another lesson. The fine mist coating I put down wasn't really the correct way to do it.

Here's what I did wrong:

All mist coats were allowed to "flash off". As I mentioned above I waited 10-15 minutes between each of the 7 coats. What I learned is that I should spray another, thicker "regular" coat over the light mist before it has "flashed off". That thicker coat, applied while the light mist was still "wet" would not have the orange peel texture.

If I did it that way then I wouldn't have to sand it flat after it's all dried. Which I had to do of course!

Still learning!

Although that means a very precise medium coat needs to be applied because we know what happens to decals when the clear is too thick. Ahem.

I'll be spraying what might be my final clear coat this weekend. One of the other things I learned is that it's good to have a week or two between "coats". And I think a "coat" means a can of Spraymax 2k! So that's why I'm waiting. Gives the clear coat some time to expand or whatever and finally solidify (if I recall some people wait up to six months after clear coating before even reattaching things like posts and fences).

So...a few more days!

1 week later
#184 3 years ago

I got my final (?) coat down! Now I guess I can move onto the new world of polishing and buffing.

Man, it’s been a long time coming!

it wasn’t the perfect I normally get, however. I think I was a bit anxious with some of the previous applications. I did apply a light coat, just in case the decals were still too close to the top, and then after five minutes put down a nice normal coat.

You can see some of my bumps below.

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#189 3 years ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

This thread is awesome. My hats off to you not giving up! There is a lot to be learned in this thread, that's for sure.
Almost makes me want to try doing a restoration myself.

Geez, thanks so much!! Well, even with a terrific guide like Vid's Guide to Restoration, it is still so very easy to make mistakes. I mean, I had some pretty big set backs and at least two good things about doing this topic on my first restoration in "real time" is I can share my mistakes, misjudgements and so on, but it also keeps me accountable! I mean, once you start a topic on something like this, if I just stopped, that's like admitting failure!

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#190 3 years ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

After 10 years of wanting a Sinbad I'm finally picking one up this weekend. Really enjoy seeing your work here. Great job.

I just love the artwork on these Gottlieb System 1's. If I could I would collect every Gordon Morrison machine I could!

And I knew nothing about Sinbad, System 1 or even much about pinball except I wanted one when I won it off an online auction site in my area. It's been a learning experience!

Make sure you join the "Sinbad Club" topic and share photos of your machine!

-1
#191 3 years ago
Quoted from seshpilot:

Man you are crushing it!!! Seriously
Impressed with your courage to take this whole thing on. It's coming along great and you seem to be learning a ton. It's part of the fun right?

Honestly I really enjoy this restoration process. It's not nearly as expensive or resource intensive as restoring a car (which I would have no ability to do anyway!) but there is something really rewarding in learning new skills, applying skills learned from other hobbies, and spending time trying to get it right.

And constantly fighting yourself over whether or not I need to buy one more tool! Argh!

As long as I can do it at a pace where it doesn't feel like I'm rushed or in a hurry, I will definitely have another go!

4 weeks later
#192 3 years ago

I just thought I'd check in. Not a lot of activity right now. I'm just waiting a good month since my final coat of clear and am slowly working on final sanding and polishing. I am thinking that since the playfield portion of this restoration is done (or so it seems) I may start a new topic to pick up on the project and go through some of fixes to the cabinet, reinstalling all the playfield parts and hardware and hopefully get to a fully playable machine!

I have some future playfield projects on my OXO and potentially a custom retheme idea for my 'parts loaner' Sinbad and I've invested a lot in all the different things you need to do a playfield, so there will be more in the future!

1 month later
#195