(Topic ID: 208885)

SilverballMania

By hawkster1

6 years ago


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  • 268 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by hawkster1
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There are 268 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 6.
#201 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Please help Inkochnito with his question to complete his Silverball Mania tech chart. What is the colors of the wire on the lamp driver board at connector J2 pin 9? Note the pin numbers on the lamp driver board start with pin 1 on the bottom of the connectors and count upwards.
And for further clarification, what's the colors of the wire mentioned below - click the photo to zoom in:
.

Sorry Quench, but you pointed to the wroung lamp (which is the Tilt).
I've made a new arrow pointing to the right lamp.

Peter

silverball_Mania_insert (resized).jpgsilverball_Mania_insert (resized).jpg

#202 5 years ago

OK will do iif others work I wil assume I need a new SCR and order one. Will get back to you. TY..... Hawkster

#203 5 years ago

Same player shoots again is green orange
Wire marker 47

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#204 5 years ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

Same player shoots again is green orange
Wire marker 47

The wire color looks to be correct, but the manual you point at is wroung.
The backbox "shoot again" lamp is connected at A5J2-9, not A5J2-21.
A5J2-21 is physicaly connected to A5J1-26 and is used for the Bonus Multiplier 5X.
This may be an error in the manual.
The German manual does have this right, just no the wire colors.
One of the reasons I make these Tech Charts.

Peter

#205 5 years ago

FYI if you need anymore input, I have a Bally Game 1157-E manual for Silverball Mania, original with game, and it does show that A5J2-21 is for shoot again, but there is not wire connected to it on my machine, and the shoot again works. A5J2-9 has a green/orange colored wire connected to it yet my manual shows NU

#206 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

FYI if you need anymore input, I have a Bally Game 1157-E manual for Silverball Mania, original with game, and it does show that A5J2-21 is for shoot again, but there is not wire connected to it on my machine, and the shoot again works. A5J2-9 has a green/orange colored wire connected to it yet my manual shows NU

Interesting.. Does the Green-Orange wire at A5J2-9 appear to go directly to the playfield or can you see it junction to the display/lamp door aswell?

#207 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Interesting.. Does the Green-Orange wire at A5J2-9 appear to go directly to the playfield or can you see it junction to the display/lamp door aswell?

No, the green-orange wire should go to the backbox shoot again lamp only.
This error I discovered when putting the lamp information together.
Just read back and you see what I mean.

#208 5 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Just read back and you see what I mean.

Yes sorry, you're right. I wasn't paying close attention to where the playfield Shoot Again lamp wire was coming from (A5J3-22) thinking it was from one of the other two connections we're talking about.

3 weeks later
#209 5 years ago

Hi Quence, here's the lastest. I replaced the Q51 SCR on lamp driver board, and A light lit, all lights work but the A right rollover light stays lit now. It scores and makes noise when activated ,but stays on, that's new. I have the 20 amp cuircuit breaker now, so we can put that in our to do list. Thanks

#210 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

all lights work but the A right rollover light stays lit now.

Does the "A" right outlane lamp illuminate from the moment you power on the machine?

The "A" right outlane lamp signal comes from pin 13 of connector J1 at the lamp board. Just for a quick test, swap the wires at positions 13 and 1 of the J1 connector at the lamp board. Is the center "I" lamp now stuck on or is the "A" right outlane lamp still stuck on?
Swapping these wires will tell us if the fault is a short on the playfield or the lamp board - most likely the fault is on the lamp board with SCR Q20.

Quoted from hawkster1:

I have the 20 amp cuircuit breaker now

We'll deal with this next.

#211 5 years ago

I don't have the right tool to remove connectors, tried using a small screwdriver, with no luck, and I also don't have those small size connectors , so I replaced the SCR Q20 on lamp board. When I started the game the "A" right outside light still comes on right away, as before. Does that mean the fault is on lamp boad somewhere?

#212 5 years ago

Hawk, see if these pics help illustrate what I think Quench is saying...
There is a small tab on the top of the contact, slight pressure on the tab while pulling GENTLY on the wire should remove the contact from the housing.

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#213 5 years ago

Atari_Daze to the rescue with great pics!
.

Quoted from hawkster1:

Does that mean the fault is on lamp boad somewhere?

Easy way to check is disconnect the J1 connector from the lamp driver board. If that right outlane "A" lamp is now off, the issue is on the lamp board. If that lamp is still stuck on, the problem is likely on the playfield around the lamp socket.
This issue occurred straight after you swapped the Q51 SCR on the lamp board for a different lamp issue right?

#214 5 years ago

Atari-Daze..Thanks for pics,looks like using a toothpick for a tool.Those are the larger size connectors shown,shoudn't matter though, except the small release pin shown, is on the opposite side of clear opening. I did try doing what is shown on pics but it didn't work.
Quench....I unplugged J1 connector and right "A" outline lamp went out, along with several others. Your'e right about the issue starting after swapping the Q51 SCR.I could try replacing Q51 again, the packet came in a static shield bag, hard to believe I shocked it, and that's the only reason I can think for replacing it.

#215 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

Atari-Daze..Thanks for pics,looks like using a toothpick for a tool.Those are the larger size connectors shown,shoudn't matter though, except the small release pin shown, is on the opposite side of clear opening. I did try doing what is shown on pics but it didn't work.

When you're doing this, first try pushing the wire *into* the connector and hold it there. Then use the tooth pick to push and hold the terminal release clip down and then pull the wire out of the connector.
If you start pulling on the wire before using the toothpick, the terminal release clip can jam on the housing edge making it difficult to unlock the release clip.

Quoted from hawkster1:

I could try replacing Q51 again

Q51 isn't the problem - it's unrelated to Q20.
Time to post some pictures showing the front and rear of the lamp board including closeups of Q20 (top and solder side) and the solder side of the J1 pin header.

#216 5 years ago

Quench I think there is some confusion. Going back to post #200 you stated that the Q51 is probably faulty. That was after I grounded the bottom right pin of SCR Q51 and the lamp lit, but when touching to TP 3 to top leg of SC Q51 it did not light. I dont remember anything about Q20. I have another SCR I can replace Q20, I can replace it and see if the light goes out . Let me know , if that doesn't work I'll send the pics. Thanks

#217 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

Going back to post #200 you stated that the Q51 is probably faulty.

Yes, Q51 was suspect faulty back then in relation to the non-working lamp you mentioned:

Quoted from hawkster1:

Quick addition to post 183 I replaced,or repaired all playfield lights and all work except for the letter "A" still not lit even with new bulb,

Quoted from hawkster1:

The "A" lamp I'm talking about is the one of the lamps in the center that spell out silverball mania.

Quoted from hawkster1:

Oops sorry , the "A" that is not lit is the first "A" on the word MANIA .

So..

Quoted from hawkster1:

I dont remember anything about Q20.

Straight after you replaced Q51 to fix the initial "A" in the centre MANIA lamp issue, you had a new lamp problem pop up with the right outlane "A" lamp being stuck on all the time. This lamp is controlled by SCR Q20.

To summarise:
Q51 controls the first "A" lamp in MANIA across the centre of the playfield.
Q20 controls the "A" lamp located at the right outlane.

If I'm confused please clearly state which lamp wasn't/isn't working properly.

If you want to shotgun replace Q20, go for it.
But there must be a reason that "A" right outlane lamp became stuck on straight after you changed Q51 and that's why pictures of the lamp board might reveal why.

#218 5 years ago

I replaced the SCR Q20 and right outline "A" worked like it should ,not sure why replacing Q51 started probem, now all lamps in playfield are working correctly, thanks. Now that I have a 20 amp circuit beaker it may be time to move onto that problem.

#219 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

Now that I have a 20 amp circuit beaker it may be time to move onto that problem.

First thing you need to do is determine if the G.I lamp short is on the playfield or behind the backglass.

Reset the 20A circuit breaker and plug it into fuse F5 on the rectifier board.
Power on the machine and watch the G.I lamps (playfield and backglass). If they don't come on, switch off the machine and check whether the circuit breaker has tripped.
If yes, remove J1 (power to playfield) from the rectifier board, reset the circuit breaker and power on.
If the circuit breaker trips, remove J3 (power to backbox) from the rectifier board, reset the circuit breaker and power on.

Let us know the outcomes.

#220 5 years ago

Started up the game with the 20 amp breaker in and started up the game, all lights came on and after a few seconds the backglass lights went out. I reset the breaker and unlugged the J1 connector from the rectifier board, and powered up. All the lights stayed on and the breaker did not trip. I did not try removing the J3 connector, and you didn't mention if the J1 connector should have been reconnected for that test.

#221 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

all lights came on and after a few seconds the backglass lights went out. I reset the breaker and unlugged the J1 connector from the rectifier board, and powered up. All the lights stayed on and the breaker did not trip.

That tells us the short circuit fault is likely on the playfield. So lets confirm below:

Quoted from hawkster1:

I did not try removing the J3 connector, and you didn't mention if the J1 connector should have been reconnected for that test.

Install J1 and remove J3. This will connect the playfield G.I and disconnect the backbox G.I
Let us know what happens with the circuit breaker after you power on.

#222 5 years ago

I removed J3 and Installed J1,powered up game and breaker tripped after about ten seconds with no lights. I decided to start test again and kept J1,J2,and J3 connected, the cb tripped almost right away.Then I removed J1 and powered up. The cb DID NOT trip, but there were no lights lit up either on playfield nor backglass,except for scores and games remaining. One time,when I removed the J1 connector it was warm, I know that shouldn'd have happened.

#223 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

I removed J3 and Installed J1,powered up game and breaker tripped after about ten seconds with no lights.

So the GI fault is (was) on the playfield.

Quoted from hawkster1:

One time,when I removed the J1 connector it was warm, I know that shouldn'd have happened.

Any smoke?
Any melted wires?
Presuming the key plug is missing from J1 it sounds like you installed the J1 connector one position out of alignment.

Whats the current status? Reset the circuit breaker, reconnect J3 and leave J1 disconnected. Does the backbox G.I come on after powerup?

#224 5 years ago

You're right about instaling J1 connector wrong,no melts or broken wires After reconnect J3... discn,.J1 nothing happens, all lights out.

#225 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

After reconnect J3... discn,.J1 nothing happens, all lights out.

Is the game still booting and playable?
Are the switched feature lamps on the playfield still working?

Quoted from hawkster1:

You're right about instaling J1 connector wrong

Which way was J1 mis-installed - left or right 1 position or rotated 180 degrees?
One of the wires on that J1 connector is the solenoid 43V power - you might have sent 43V to all the G.I lamps and blown them all. Put some new lamps in the backbox and reset the circuit breaker.

#226 5 years ago

I thought I might have inserted the J1 connector to the right by one space because the new connector has an extra pin on it,that couldn't have happened because the plugged socket hole would fit in one way,and I wouldn't even be able to plug it in upside down. That's what I thought might have happened at first until I tried to plug the J1 connector incorrectly,and found out that I can't. I'm not sure why I got heated up now.
I started up the game,have the sound, but no selenoids activated and no lights on playfield nor backbox,except for score and games left. I shut game off and restarted for another test and game seems to have stopped booting up now. I also will need to order bulbs,especially if I blew all of them.

#227 5 years ago

So J1 is keyed and you can only plug it in one way (which is how the connectors were done from factory).

Something might have happened on the back of the rectifier board from the force of inserting/removing the connectors.

Without pictures I have no way of knowing.

Unplug the machines power from the wall, remove and test all the fuses on the rectifier board for zero ohms continuity.
Reinstall fuses that are good and replace any that are blown.
The next step is to plug the machines power back in and power it up. Measure all the voltages on the rectifier board at the test points.

Be careful, there is live power on the rectifier board.

See here for the expected test point voltages and set your multimeter to the correct voltage type and range accordingly before taking each measurement:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Rectifier_Board_Test_Point_Values

.

Quoted from hawkster1:

I also will need to order bulbs,especially if I blew all of them.

Since you didn't plug J1 wrong, you probably didn't blow all the lamps.

#228 5 years ago

That's kinda good news about my not blowing all the lights. I will check all the fuses and replace if necessary and I will let you know the test point voltages. Thanks for the site you added with your reply.

#229 5 years ago

I checked fuses on rectifier board , all are good except F5 20 amp breaker, not usable yet. I checked with the J1 connector disconnected,not sure if that matters. I powered up machine and get the following test point voltages :
TP1 =6.02 VDC
TP2 = 231 VDC
TP3 = 14.37 VDC
TP4 = 10 VAC
TP5 = 43.8 VDC
TP6 = 10 ? (My schematic does not show a test point 6 yet there is one on my board.Not sure if it should be ac or dc or even read anything or just a spare)
When I power up game now, the green led on MPU board stays on and doesn't flash .

#230 5 years ago

Sounds like you've got an aftermarket rectifier board by the fact the J1 pin connector has an extra pin and the extra TP6. My guess is that TP6 is just ground. Does the board look nice and shiny or old and crispy?

Your voltages look ok. I would have expected TP3 to be slightly higher, and TP4 seems a little high but that could be because there's no G.I lamps connected to load it.
.

Quoted from hawkster1:

When I power up game now, the green led on MPU board stays on and doesn't flash

This is a bad sign..

Next thing to do is check the voltages at the solenoid driver board and then the MPU board:

Your Solenoid driver board model is "AS-2518-22"
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Solenoid_Driver.2FRegulator_Test_Point_Values

Your MPU board model is "AS-2518-35".
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#MPU_Test_Point_Values

#231 5 years ago

So Close ...so far Took voltage test results look ok. here they are;
MPU board
TP1 = 5.08 VDC
TP2 = 14.60 BDC = 5 VDC
TP3 = 28.04 VDC
TP4 = GND ( I touched ground strap to TP 4 and the start-up sound went on ?)
TP5 = 5.07 VDC
SELENIOID Board
TP1 = 5.07 VDC
TP2 = 180 VDC
TP3 = 5.04 VDC
TP4 = 236 VDC
TP5 = 14.4 VDC
TP6 = 5.06 VDC
TP7 = 5.06 VDC

#232 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

SELENIOID Board
TP5 = 14.4 VDC

Hmm, the solenoid driver board has a big capacitor at C23 in the middle of the board. Somethings telling me that you've lost connection to that capacitor or it's gone open circuit. I expect this test point TP5 to be closer to 17 volts.

Ok, can you do this for me:
Back at the rectifier board, power on and measure the DC voltage at test point TP3.
Switch the machine off, disconnect connector J3 from the rectifier board, power up and measure TP3 again.
Let us know what voltage readings you get.
If both measured voltages are the same, we have to look at capacitor C23 back up on the solenoid driver board.

#233 5 years ago

When I first powered up the game green LED flashed 7x and game started along with the playfield lights,a funny sound started coming from the coin door area I think, like power energizing on and off, then machine died, maybe something gets too hot and when all cools off it tries again.I tried restarting again but nothing happened,LED did not flash. I'll will wait awhile then retry after everything cools off.
TP3 on rectifier board
J3 connected = 14.65 VDC
J3 disconnected = 10.95 VDC

#234 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

a funny sound started coming from the coin door area

Was it the coin reject coil trying to activate and it was humming/buzzing?

Quoted from hawkster1:

TP3 on rectifier board
J3 connected = 14.65 VDC
J3 disconnected = 10.95 VDC

These voltages seem a little low but the test at least showed a difference in the two measurements, so capacitor C23 on the solenoid driver board isn't dead.

Disconnect J1 (playfield power) from the rectifier board and see if the game starts reliably a few times - i.e. MPU LED flashing 7 times and then the displays going into atract mode.

#235 5 years ago

OK I'll get back to you,BTW happy 4th of July

#236 5 years ago

I disconnected J1 and started the game, the green LED flashed 3x then nothing.I tired an hour later the LED flashed 7x machine powered up with no lights on playfield nor the blackbox except for scores, and they were jumpy.The sounds on game are affected also.

#237 5 years ago

Sounds like you might have some power issue.

While the machine is OFF:
Plug J4 at the MPU board in and out a few times.
Plug J3 at the Solenoid Driver Board in and out a few times.
Plug J3 at the rectifier board in and out a few times.
Reconnect J1 on the rectifier board.

Confirm each plug is correctly positioned then power up the game a couple of times and see if it reliably boots each time.

#238 5 years ago

I unplugged and replugged all, reconnected J1, started game, I get seven green LCD flashes and game starts up. I tried starting the game a few time , and it started up every time but the sound only came on a couple of times. There are display lights on playfield ,but not on blackbox.

#239 5 years ago

So the MPU board is booting reliably now?
Can you please measure the DC voltage again at test point TP3 on the rectifier board and report back.
.

Quoted from hawkster1:

There are display lights on playfield ,but not on blackbox.

Can you clarify? G.I lights or feature switched lights are working/non working on playfield/backbox?
Are the score displays coming on?
Are the solenoids working?
Can you otherwise play a game?

#240 5 years ago

MPU board is booting reliably now. Test PT3 on rectifier board reads 14 VDC
When I start up game I get sound( so far), and all the lights on playfield work.
The lights on backbox DO NOT work, EXCEPT for the Score and Games left to play,they are on and working.

#241 5 years ago

addition to #240 All solenoids are working and I can play a game. Only booted it up a couple of times and it worked , hopefully it.s permanently working.

#242 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

MPU board is booting reliably now. Test PT3 on rectifier board reads 14 VDC
...
Only booted it up a couple of times and it worked , hopefully it.s permanently working.

Since the problem started when you played with the rectifier board connectors, it's very likely the J3 connector at the rectifier board needs to be re-terminated.
This problem will otherwise return sooner or later - tired/aged/tarnished/corroded/burnt connectors are the biggest cause of issues with these old games.
When you end up re-terminating, take photos of J3 showing where the wire colors are and redo one wire at a time to make sure you reinsert the wire in the connector housing at the correct position.
.

Quoted from hawkster1:

The lights on backbox DO NOT work, EXCEPT for the Score and Games left to play,they are on and working.

You mean the displays are working? The digit displays are totally separate to lights.

What's happening with the 20A circuit breaker? Is is still functioning (tripping on overload)?

#243 5 years ago

OK about the J3 connector, I will do that as soon as I get some right size terminals,(gotta find them) the ones on this board are the small size. I appreciate your earlier post about pusing in the connector to take pressure off then pushing free with toothpick.
The 20A breaker is tripping right after the seven flashes of green LED.
I want to be sure we are on the same page with lights, all THE PLAYFIELD LIGHTS WORK, when you wrote digit displays ,if that means the score lights,and games left lights, that's ok, and they are working anyways. The lights that are not working are the 24 that are left, I'm understanding them to be the displays.I tried doing the light test to see if they would go on but didn't happen,they must be controlled by the 20 A fuse, and I imagine that's where the short is.I looked for anything obviuos with wires touching ect. but looks ok, probably something easy that I'm missing . There must be a way to test a section at a time to find the problem.

#244 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

OK about the J3 connector, I will do that as soon as I get some right size terminals,(gotta find them) the ones on this board are the small size.

J3 uses the larger terminals. They are 0.156" size. Great Plains has all your terminal/crimp needs:
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/categories.asp?cat=35

Quoted from hawkster1:

I want to be sure we are on the same page with lights, all THE PLAYFIELD LIGHTS WORK,

The F5 fuse with the 20A circuit breaker protects the games general illumination (G.I.). If this circuit breaker is tripping then you are missing the general lighting on the playfield and behind the back glass. The other lamps that switch on and off are known as feature/switched/controlled lamps. They are protected by fuse F1 (10A). These are the lights on your game that are working. But you are missing the general playfield and backglass lighting.

We call the score digit indicators "displays", not lights. The orange items shown below are displays.
The round globes/lamps are not displays.

Below in Yellow are where the G.I lamps are behind the backglass. The green locations are feature/switched/controlled lamps.
Your G.I lamps will not be working since fuse F5 is blowing/tripping.

In terms of playfield, the lamps underneath the playfield inserts that switch on and off should be working. But the G.I lamps the illuminate the playfield plastics, pop bumpers and general playfield area won't be working since fuse F5 is blowing/tripping.

Please confirm you are missing the general playfield lighting and lighting shown in yellow below. The G.I lamps should always be on so long as the machine is powered up - they don't switch on and off.
.

SBM_Light_Board_Door2.jpgSBM_Light_Board_Door2.jpg

#245 5 years ago

Excellent graphic Quench!

#246 5 years ago

Yes those are the ones not working ( yellow circles) general playfield lighting. Sorry with my discription it made things confusing, now we're on the same team again. Thanks ....Hawkster

#247 5 years ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

Excellent graphic Quench

I'm pretty sure that's one of your photos! It's one I reused from earlier in this thread and edited.
.

Quoted from hawkster1:

Yes those are the ones not working ( yellow circles) general playfield lighting.

Take out a globe from the game that's working.
Grab your multimeter and set it to low ohms resistance mode.
Measure the globe resistance between the solder blob on the base and the side can. This is your reference resistance reading of a good globe.

Now take out some of those non working G.I globes shown in yellow on that photo above and measure their resistance. If they're giving you no reading, i.e. open circuit, then continue to take more out and test them.
We're just checking to see if they're all blown from the problems of 2 weeks ago around post #222.

#248 5 years ago

Ok will check out,hope they're not all blown. If the circuit breaker for 20 A fuse still keeps tripping on start, up does that mean a short could have blown every globe? I'll get back to you with answer.

#249 5 years ago

Tested globes , on G.I most were blown but some were good,here is where it gets funny..you were right about J3 using the larger terminals, and I have those so I decided to replace them. I started with J3 pin 20, removed and replaced terminal,was difficult because the crimpers I have are too large to crimp them, had to use needle nose pliers which took forever, I decided to hold off for the right crimper. When I started the game to make sure everything still worked,I got the green LED to light up seven times, and the game started up with all lights and sound,INCLUDING SOME G.I. GLOBES. Even more amazing is the fact that the 20 A circuit breaker DID NOT TRIP. Only 4 or 5 globes are lit and when I tried them in other sockets they lit up , so I have to replace a lot of them. The pin # 20 is for the selenoid return BUS if that means anything.

#250 5 years ago
Quoted from hawkster1:

you were right about J3 using the larger terminals

For the connectors going onto the rectifier board, it's recommended to upgrade them to "trifurcon" terminals. See the 4th terminal in this list:
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=86
You'll notice it has 2 extra "fingers" to grab the pin for better conductivity. These trifurcon terminals require a different housing. This stuff is pretty cheap.
.

Quoted from hawkster1:

I started with J3 pin 20, removed and replaced terminal,was difficult because the crimpers I have are too large to crimp them, had to use needle nose pliers which took forever, I decided to hold off for the right crimper.

Wise move, a proper crimper will make life so much easier and do a better job.

One of the terminals providing G.I power on the J3 connector might have had poor connection which is why you lost G.I - replugging the connector might have made connection again.

One of the globes you pulled out might have had an internal short - unlikely but possible.

Very carefully inspect all the lamp sockets that you removed/tested globes from. Look at the back of the sockets where the wires are soldered to see if any of those terminals are very loose and might be shorting. Also look inside the lamp socket for anything that could be shorting inside the socket such as centre pin being bent or metal piece of rubbish, or insulation between the centre pin and outer housing that looks damaged.

Post some pics of the rectifier board and connectors so we can see how toasty they are.

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