(Topic ID: 142175)

Silver conductive pen for trace repair


By Bax1

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 37 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by acebathound
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    #1 3 years ago

    Has anyone used one of these to repair traces? Any luck with them? Thinking of giving it a try but a little leary on reliability

    #2 3 years ago

    run a patch wire if you can't stitch it with an appropriate sized resistor lead.

    #3 3 years ago
    Quoted from Bax1:

    Has anyone used one of these to repair traces? Any luck with them? Thinking of giving it a try but a little leary on reliability

    Do as Andrew suggests. The trace pins are worthless for repairs. First time someone touches an iron to the trace it will disappear. They're used in the design phase and not really intended for production.

    #4 3 years ago

    Don't be concerned aboot it looking well, but working well. Run jumper wires for sure.

    #5 3 years ago
    Quoted from terryb:

    .... First time someone touches an iron to the trace it will disappear. ....

    That.

    #6 3 years ago

    Tried it and absolute fail. Horrible product and expensive.

    #7 3 years ago

    The only thing those pens are good at is fixing a scratch in a stripe on your rear window defoger.

    #8 3 years ago

    Cool thank you for the advise guys. I am going to do the jumper wires. Have 2 traces on a system 80b board. Do you guys recommend soldering to the trace or from start of the trace to the end point of it?

    #9 3 years ago
    Quoted from Bax1:

    Cool thank you for the advise guys. I am going to do the jumper wires. Have 2 traces on a system 80b board. Do you guys recommend soldering to the trace or from start of the trace to the end point of it?

    It really depends on the situation for me. Hard to really tell you one way or another.... Maybe a picture?

    #10 3 years ago

    Agreed, those pens SUCK

    #11 3 years ago

    image.jpg

    #12 3 years ago

    Yeah I jacked this up pretty good

    #13 3 years ago

    Assuming you are installing sockets, I'd run jumpers on the back side of the board, from solder point to solder point. It's neater and will also not interfere with the socket frame.

    #14 3 years ago

    Since I don't care how a board looks, only that it works well, I will often run a jumper wire to replace the entire trace if it is messed up.By replacing the entire trace I am able to start and end at a larger junction point and get a better solder job.

    But in your situation I would not do that since I would not want to put any unnecessary heat into that chip that is soldered to the board, so I would just repair the trace and not put a jumper wire near that chip's leg.

    The repair job in the picture is not a hard repair to do, but it looks like thing are not cleaned up on your board. Heat up and remove all of the excess solder and original repair work in that area and start again.

    I would place a jumper wire in a way so the you are not trying to solder both jumper wires to the different traces in the same area, I hope that makes sense. Take advantage of the green resist coating to prevent your solder from flowing to the wrong trace.

    Also, make sure you are using good quality resin core solder and a small temperature controlled soldering iron. I think many people fail because they try to use solder that is a huge diameter for the job and/or a soldering iron that is huge for the job. Take a look on this forum for threads on this topic if you are unsure about what you should be using. When you have the correct tools (which are not expensive) this type of repair work is a treat to do.

    #15 3 years ago

    You've got a bigger problem than a blown-out trace. At least one of the pads/through holes is trashed. The pad/through-hole on the left (in the red circle) is shot and needs to be repaired with a stitch or an eyelet, the next one to the right needs to be cleaned up and visually inspected and tested with a meter (although it looks like part of the pad/through-hole is trashed), ditto on inspection for the next one after removing the solder.

    In fact all of the pads should be tested for across board and through board continuity and visually inspected from both sides. It would also help to know if the damaged lands are pads or through-holes.

    As John said you should install a socket so no one has to solder this again in the future if the chip fails.

    I think pinwiki has some info regarding doing a stitch. If the second hole needs a stitch I would just bend the stitch over and use it as a jumper. It is fine to solder it to a trace when appropriate.

    The board will not be reliable without the appropriate repairs.

    I would suggest you read the following post on soldering. I'm just getting into desoldering and will be covering stitches and eyelets as I continue.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-soldering-guide-part-1

    Image1.jpg

    #16 3 years ago

    On a recent board repair with a badly corroded socket that destroyed pads, I ended up cutting my own pads with 1/8" copper foil tape with really tiny scissors. Then I scraped a bit of the solder mask off the trace, and soldered the cooper foil to the trace. Then, covered the solder point with with a green overcoat trace pen. After the overcoat ink dried, everything seemed to hold when I soldered in a new socket, and continuity tested good.

    This kind of repair certainly isn't for everybody--it takes a lot of patience. I just don't like seeing jumper wires all over the place (though that is probably the better and easier approach).

    20151005244501692.jpg

    #17 3 years ago

    Thank you for all the feedback guys. This will be socketed for the new style piggyback board from Great Plains. This is on the top side of the board and the bottom pads are fine. So since the top pads are trashed, could I just run the jumpers on the bottom?

    #18 3 years ago

    You can run jumpers on the top or bottom side. Doesn't really matter, but i try to keep them on the top of the board when I can. Less likely to get caught on something and ripped loose on the topside.

    If you have some really thin stranded wire, I would keep all the patch wire on the top side of the board.

    You strip the wire and thread it throug the hole and then stick the socket down on top of it. So when you solder the socket in place, you are also attaching the wire to the place the through holes are blown out. Then you attach the other end of the wire where is appropriate to get continuity back. I would recommend solder sucking out the next unused eprom pads there to attach your wires too.

    #19 3 years ago
    Quoted from Bax1:

    Thank you for all the feedback guys. This will be socketed for the new style piggyback board from Great Plains. This is on the top side of the board and the bottom pads are fine. So since the top pads are trashed, could I just run the jumpers on the bottom?

    This is why I was/am working on an alternative piggyback project:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/alternative-gottlieb-sys80b-piggyback-fix-plug-and-play-interest-check

    It's dead-simple to just plug something into the TC1 socket and swap the eprom out. Don't even have to remove the MPU from the machine, it's a reversible "mod", etc etc. The original piggyback is a complete PITA to remove unless you have a Hakko 808 and/or significant experience removing them. Yet people attempt it because there's replacement piggyback boards available (no offense to those that offer replacements) that then require you to desolder/remove the existing piggyback off the board. It's just too tempting to have a solution (new replacement board) and save a few bucks by doing it yourself. The thing is, the removal of the original piggyback can so easily take a board that otherwise didn't have any hacks/issues and turn it into a mess. Even the professional board repair guys have to have a certain technique down to be fairly sure they don't damage anything getting it out.

    I thought it looked like a botched piggyback attempt. Don't worry, I botched one myself even with reasonably good technique and being careful about it. That's what caused me to work on an alternative option. Unfortunately just wasn't seeing *tons* of interest on that and I worked on other projects instead. I'm getting back to work on the PIGGYDEUX project though.. I do think it'd be cool for people to have the alternative.

    Anyway to answer your question.. yeah as long as the pads on the bottom aren't loose/bad then you'd be fine doing that.

    #20 3 years ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    This is why I was/am working on an alternative piggyback project:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/alternative-gottlieb-sys80b-piggyback-fix-plug-and-play-interest-check
    It's dead-simple to just plug something into the TC1 socket and swap the eprom out. The original piggyback is a complete PITA to remove unless you have a Hakko 808 and/or significant experience removing them. Yet people attempt it because there's replacement piggyback boards available (no offense to those that offer replacements) that then require you to desolder/remove the existing piggyback of the board.
    I thought it looked like a botched piggyback attempt. Don't worry, I botched one myself even with reasonably good technique and being careful about it. That's what caused me to work on an alternative option. Unfortunately just not seeing *tons* of interest on that and I worked on other projects instead. I'm getting back to work on the PIGGYDEUX project though.. I do think it'd be cool for people to have the alternative.
    Anyway to answer your question.. yeah as long as the pads on the bottom aren't loose/bad then you'd be fine doing that.

    Does anything ever go in the test socket? I have only worked on a few s80 games and it was always unpopulated, but in this picture i see some stuff there, maybe hackerations???

    #21 3 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Does anything ever go in the test socket? I have only worked on a few s80 games and it was always unpopulated, but in this picture i see some stuff there, maybe hackerations???

    Yeah that "hack" looking thing is factory Just a "dummy" board (I forget what they call them) that plugs into TC1 and connects to the reset board. It has a diode as part of the reset circuit.. along with another resistor Gottlieb later added to the MPU. But that's it.. couple connections for the signals and 5v/gnd to the reset board.. then a diode and resistor.

    Docent sells new "dummy" MPU to Reset boards here at $12.50ea:
    http://www.docentelectronics.com/httpdocs/AmusementGames/Pinball/Gottlieb/system%2080.htm

    I take care of that by keeping this resistor & diode on the PIGGYDEUX board. Then having headers for the reset board signals. Even though you don't technically need the reset board connected, I'm not making that decision for people. So that's it for TC1... it's otherwise "unused" and a perfect place to allow you to get around damaging the PCB by trying to desolder/remove the original piggyback... and instead pick up the signals necessary to run the eprom over there.. add a few leds for power/reset lines, etc.

    #22 3 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Does anything ever go in the test socket? I have only worked on a few s80 games and it was always unpopulated, but in this picture i see some stuff there, maybe hackerations???

    http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Reset_Board

    And: http://www.pinitech.com/lab/gottlieb_sys80_univ_tester.php

    #23 3 years ago

    Just looked at the schematic for the reset board and piggy back board. I couldnt figure out what 'BAB13' was that they invert on the piggback and if it runs to TC1, but otherwise makes good sense to use that test socket. You can even add another TC1 to your board if someone still wants the reset board.

    Looks like that reset board kind of similar to wms sys 3 era blanking signal. Make sure there is activity set in an interval dependent on capacitors and if it stops running it does something to the reset (i dunno if this cpu is reset high or low). I guess this protects outputs from locking on when the R/W stops pulsing like a WMS blanking signal in theory does if a display PIA stops pulsing.

    #24 3 years ago

    You know what's crazy is I've had quite a few people download the instructions for the Universal Tester -- 15-20x people each month. I'd imagine part of it is anyone in any country can download it or acquire the boards from Oshpark. I have no idea what percentage of the people downloading the Leon instructions are actually getting boards from Oshpark and building it, but it's just a bit surprising to see that level of interest. Most of my other testers don't get anything near that even in just page views. I tried the "donation" thing on that and found free stuff doesn't motivate anyone to donate lol. Probably shot myself in the foot a bit there going the donation route..but, it helps the community.. and it was Leon's idea and code anyway so just didn't feel right offering it as my own thing.

    What makes it pretty cool is Marco (MarAlb on Pinside) has his own test eprom that has far more extensive tests than Leon's and also great documentation for it.. and it works with the board. I haven't even had the chance to fix boards up using Marco's ROM.. I fixed a bunch up with Leon's, then found Marco's and tried it out.. and Marco has been making improvements over the last year or so -- even tests the RIOTs to some extent. Ultimately took a basic tester (Leon's code) and made it into something pretty useful to fix up Sys80 boards.

    #25 3 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Just looked at the schematic for the reset board and piggy back board. I couldnt figure out what 'BAB13' was that they invert on the piggback and if it runs to TC1, but otherwise makes good sense to use that test socket. You can even add another TC1 to your board if someone still wants the reset board.
    Looks like that reset board kind of similar to wms sys 3 era blanking signal. Make sure there is activity set in an interval dependent on capacitors and if it stops running it does something to the reset (i dunno if this cpu is reset high or low). I guess this protects outputs from locking on when the R/W stops pulsing like a WMS blanking signal in theory does if a display PIA stops pulsing.

    Yep, similar to blanking. It's good to leave it connected really.. even though you see so often people going "oh just disconnect it in home-use, you don't need it"... well you don't until the machine locks up and bad things happen. I think people should either be repairing or replacing their faulty reset boards and keep the thing in there. If you're only at the machine when it's being used.. that's one thing.. but if you turn it on for parties or walk away for hours.. why remove a fail-safe kind of thing that was put there by some pretty intelligent people.

    I thought about adding another 40-pin socket.. but then also figured if I was going to do that, I could offer it as some additional riser board type of thing instead of causing this PIGGYDEUX to be twice as big as it needed for the few people that were actually going to use Ed's Quickscan on it at the same time they had the PIGGYDEUX plugged in.

    #26 3 years ago

    That is a pretty cool set up. I noticed you still have the piggyback board on. Does that still have to be on the board?

    #27 3 years ago
    Quoted from Bax1:

    That is a pretty cool set up. I noticed you still have the piggyback board on. Does that still have to be on the board?

    No need to remove the original piggyback, but if it's removed it wouldn't affect plugging in the alternate board in the TC1 socket. The only catch there is, if during the removal of the piggyback traces/pads were shorted/mangled that were needed for other ICs to function properly, those issues would need to be addressed.

    The idea though is just to leave the original piggyback there, not mess with it at all.. and have a much more plug-and-play way to address the failing solder joints at the piggyback that are causing game issues. Failed solder joints an an unused eprom socket aren't any issue. So that board stays there and a new path for the eprom to function is created by duplicating the piggyback circuit at the TC1 socket.. along with maintaining the reset board functionality and adding some leds

    #28 3 years ago

    Very cool. I was having booting problems with my piggyback board hence my crappy removal. I need to invest in a hakko so I can desolder properly

    #29 3 years ago
    Quoted from Bax1:

    Very cool. I was having booting problems with my piggyback board hence my crappy removal. I need to invest in a hakko so I can desolder properly

    Yep, no worries. I'm sure many people have done the same.. it's so easy to have a few pads or traces to come up. And so very tempting when there's a new board you can put in.. and money to be saved by doing it yourself. Totally get why people try it But an alternative would be cool.

    The Hakko 808 will work much better, it's not the *complete* answer, technique and knowing what to look at as far as how freed up the pins are is all part of it as well. But, it does a better job than a lot of cheaper desoldering equipment or even desoldering stations. The suction on that thing is just awesome.

    #30 3 years ago

    Nothing wrong with tried and true jumpers if the trace is bad.

    #31 3 years ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    But, it does a better job than a lot of cheaper desoldering equipment or even desoldering stations. The suction on that thing is just awesome.

    If you like the 808 you'll love the FR-300. It could suck a tennis ball through a hose.

    #32 3 years ago
    Quoted from terryb:

    If you like the 808 you'll love the FR-300. It could suck a tennis ball through a hose.

    Reaaaaaally.. I'd have thought they were the same. Now I have something else I have to upgrade at some point lol.

    #33 3 years ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    Reaaaaaally.. I'd have thought they were the same. Now I have something else I have to upgrade at some point lol.

    FR300 has a new (better) pump design. On off button. Heating indication LED. New tip style and change method(easily change while hot). Ceramic filter is in a better spot. Easier temp adjustment.

    It is a very good tool.

    #34 3 years ago

    Yikes, but it's over $100 more than I paid for the 808. Think I'm okay for now lol.

    #35 3 years ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    Reaaaaaally.. I'd have thought they were the same. Now I have something else I have to upgrade at some point lol.

    "He who dies with the most tools wins."

    And yes they did make a pretty good jump in price.

    #36 3 years ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    Yikes, but it's over $100 more than I paid for the 808. Think I'm okay for now lol.

    +1

    #37 3 years ago

    I'm not against quality tools and all.. I'm usually the one arguing that they pay for themselves quick. But $270 (okay maybe $250 if you're lucky) for a desoldering gun is kind of nuts. Not for board repair guys that can pay for it relatively quickly, I get why it's not a bad thing to do there. But I thought $170 was a lot to pay for an 808 considering my full bells and whistles soldering/desoldering station was less than $200. Unless the thing starts pooping out gold bars, I'll stick with the 808 for now.

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