I think if you account for inflation pricing isn't hugely different. I'll use my Elvira and the Party Monsters as the example again since it's one of my favorites that I own. $3000 in 1989 according to the interweb is around $6000 today, not too different from a modern Pro model even though a Stern pro will have more "toys" than my Elvira does.

As for longevity of the Stern boards, who knows. We'll have to wait a couple more decades to have that question answered.

thats one hell of a party in someones mind at that price.

Well it's just a dollar conversion. I imagine it may look even worse for early 80s games like Xenon, but maybe it looks better for later 90s games though like Scared Stiff. How much was Scared Stiff new in 1996 anyways? Can't seem to find data on that but I think I remember someone saying around $3699 in a Youtube video. If that's true that makes around $5800 in today's dollars which is similar to what say a Ghostbusters Pro sells for.

A self titled pinball expert with 92 youtube subscribers now thats funny

Jack is that you

A fool and his money are soon parted you can still buy LE games for all JJP and 4 Stern games

Yes, this is true, but there should be an ethics to it. The price increases over the last two years are on the verge of ludicrous, and the QC issues and the cost-cutting decisions are not helping justify such increases. For a quick overview, let's go over to this thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sterns-game-release-history

The price from 2010 to 2017 has increased $1400 on a Pro - a 29% increase, and that's with the inclusion of all the cost-cutting measures that Stern has implemented. If the games were getting better, ok, maybe I could understand that, but damn, nearly 30% in 7 years on a multi-thousand dollar toy? That's a bit excessive if you ask me, especially with all of the QC issues of late.

*This opinion is based on the B/W games, as Stern games, realistically, are damn robust in comparison*

So, I will do my very best to be objective here. The engineer in me goes "wtf?!?!?" when I read this. To me, when I buy something that has this much of a niche', I go in expecting to have to work on my games. As an engineer making a plan going in, I simply cannot imagine buying a $5000+ toy and not learning how to work on them. To me, that is a setup for disappointment; it is simply a matter of time before these games start to falter and something will stop working right. Given the sheer number of parts, it is simply inevitable. As someone who likes to tinker, part of the fun is getting them running again. Do not get me wrong, I do NOT like it when something starts acting up/not working right/and the random reset in B/W games WITHOUT hitting both flippers at the same time drives me nuts. That being said, the journey to me is part of the fun, and the sense of accomplishment I get when I work on something and get it running 100% again is something Stern just cannot offer me.

I think there are two things that everyone needs to go this route:

1. A mentor. It is SO much easier to learn when you have someone very skilled at your beckon call. I was very blessed and fortunate to have WeirPinball only a 40 min drive away, and he mentored me a lot. Because of him, Metallik, and a couple other fellow Pinsiders, I got the confidence to lift the hood and dive in. I know that - worst case scenario - I had a couple guys that, for a minimal hourly fee, I could call and get things working right again. It was great to really try first, and looking back, I never had to hire anyone to work on my games one time. Occasionally, I did have to bring a power driver board or a special high current board to WeirPinball for quick diagnosis, but that was easy to do, and I learned more diagnosing and troubleshooting procedures.

2. A desire to tinker. Like you said, you just want to play, and hey, that's fine, but you need to be understanding that sooner or later, the machines are going to act up, and you are going to have downtime. You can sit by the sidelines and wait for someone to come work on your games, or you can enable yourself to work on your own games - or you can selectively choose your battles. Shit, for most boardwork, I send mine to Chris Hibler because I know my limits. I also know it's only because I do not have the right equipment yet (a quality de-soldering gun), and the right equipment normally costs the same as a new RD board - so guess which one I normally choose? Plus, I normally sell my old factory board to someone like Chris who can fix it and keep it in the community rather than just throwing it away.

Also, I'm fortunate to have no children (don't know if you have kids or not), so I have considerably more time to tinker than most I'm sure (trust me, there's more going on than just going to work, but let's keep some cans of worms closed).

Just FYI, I read all of your posts, so I am not addressing just this one specific quoted post. It is the most convenient one to respond to rather than quoting like another 5 subsequent posts ; ).

My best guess is that at some they re-evaluated their business and decided that the future is in home use, not in vending them, as such perhaps they decided going forwards they will be lower volume but higher price and have been quickly transitioning to that. They may have seen the retro resurgence coming and decided to position themselves to capitalize on that. As far as quality issues, it's possible they always had various qc issues but in the past vendors didn't care since the machines would be beat up on for a year in the field before being sold, and the second hand market would expect various issues with a used game anyways. Just a guess. Honestly I haven't seen any issues on the Stern machines I've played in various locations, so I haven't seen the cabinets and play fields falling apart as mentioned here, but maybe I've been lucky.

Think about though, how many buyers have both a desire to tinker and a skilled mentor at their beck and call? I can't imagine that many. We don't have kids and I have my own company hence I have lots of spare time, but to be honest I prefer to spend it walking at the beach or tearing around the local canyon roads. I've done some tinkering here and there, you can see it in some of my Youtube videos, I've desoldered chips, replaced caps, installed sockets, swapped ribbon cables, stuff like that, but it's not something I hugely enjoy, it was just something I had to do to bullet proof some of my arcade machines when local tech guys were simply not available. Honestly I'd rather they all just work which is why I may have fixed some on my own, but I bought some fully restored from elsewhere paying much more but having someone else do all the work. To each their own I guess, in my case I like that the newer machine will be easier for me to fix with a board swap but for you at least you have an endless supply of older pins to work on.

I don't known him or anything of him but the theme is great.
Watched the show as a kid.
Did you ever see the movie
Team America world police?

image (resized).jpeg

Yes, now that would be a great theme for a pin! Thunderbirds is better than Dialed In at least.

I posted this in the other thread but I thought It was valid here too since the Video was posted here as well

So I decided to take the statements and questions of this video to Stern see what they had to say... This was their reply. Hopefully, you guys will find some of this enlightening as I did

George Gomez has answered some of these questions in pin chats and interviews before but he was happy to answer them again. We tried to Catalog based on the time a statement or question was asked on the video.

2:55 — “Considering the abundance of empty space inside a pinball machine, the use of a microelectronic system is completely unnecessary and almost always makes faults far more inconvenient and expensive to repair”
Response:The Spike systems use modern, state of the art technology. Like many modern systems it is based on a distributed network and it leverages the flexibility and features inherent in surface mount components, LED lighting and switching power supplies; not unlike mobile phones, computers, automobiles, jet aircraft or any product designed for use in the world today.
The system is designed to be modular in order to allow the system to scale to the requirements of the game. Stern Pinball intends to develop games at many price points to satisfy many existing and future market segments. This means that a simpler game is not burdened with the cost of resources that it doesn’t use and a more complex game isn’t limited by a fixed set of inputs and outputs. Previous systems used a finite number of drivers and resources, extra drivers could be added but it was awkward and expensive.
3:34 — "Serviceability with Spike is not enhanced, in fact quite the opposite it true”.
Response: All new technology requires some acclimation period amongst service users. The Spike systems currently use menus that are directly based on the SAM system. A more updated diagnostic system, which takes advantage of the user interface available thru the LCD screen and built in smart diagnostics is currently in development. There are also numerous programs in development to train and educate the technical support community, operators and customers on troubleshooting techniques specific to the new system.
3:53 — “The previous SAM system already featured 100% LED illumination.”
Response: This is only true because the game referenced (Star Trek Premium/LE) was essentially a SAM/Spike hybrid with preliminary node board architecture from Spike running the LEDs.It was a modified SAM system, utilizing Spike technology.
The power budgets onthe Spike system are designed to allow the designer to use a substantially greater number of LED’s than the previous systems incandescent lighting; whilealso using similar amounts of power.In addition, the system allows for the use of color changing LED’s, giving the designer substantially more feature flexibility, more attractive light shows and greater design potential; this was impossible with incandescent lighting. LED’s are currently used in the vast majority of consumer products due to the intensity of the light, reliability, color flexibility and low power consumption.
4:03 — “It’s worth noting the Spike system is quite sensitive. If you were to replace one of the few removable LEDs with a traditional light bulb it will cause the Spike system to shut down or reset at random”.
Response:The Spike system is very robust and has passed rigorous laboratory testing that subjected it to shock, vibration, extremes in temperature, electrical shocks and radiation events way beyond what it sees in real world use. Spike is designed to work with LEDs. If an incandescent lamp is installed it draws excessive current, which is sensed by the overcurrent detection circuit; then outputs of the driving node board are turned off for ½ second. Since the overload persists, it will have the effect of disabling that node board until the offending incandescent lamp is removed. This is not a failure condition; this is a design feature to protect the system. This also allows the system to protect itself from potential shorts when someone is poking around under a playfield with a tool and accidentally shorts across components.
5:01 — “Being a microelectronic system, Spike’s circuit boards are far more delicate…”
Response:In reality small boards with SMT components are less likely to suffer failures due to mechanical shock loads due to the lower mass of the components and inherent lower inertia. In addition the same types of components are used in consumer, industrial and commercial products throughout the world today,specifically because they are more reliable and stable. Every mobile phone in use today sees much greater potential shock loads and uses the very same types of components.
5:40 — “… it would have been a wise safety precaution to have fuses in some key areas”
Response:The coil outputs have overcurrent protection.Shorted coils should cause no damage to the driver board. Sizing fuses is a non-trivial issue considering how much current a large coil can draw — a fuse which is large enough to not blow under normal conditions may not blow under a failure condition, either. This is especially problematic if a single fuse is expected to protect multiple coils.
6:16 — "Spike is definitely not a better system for operators to work with, diagnose, or repair in the field”
Response:Again, a modular system is preferable for service. LED’s are far more reliable. Service and diagnostics menus are the same as on SAM. As said before, Stern is constantly working to improve its products including serviceability. The roll out of node diagnostic code will further improve serviceability.
 
7:05 — “Spike diagnostics are essentially identical to the previous SAM system…”
Response:Yes, this was by design so that on system roll out operators familiar with SAM games would be able to navigate the system until training schools, support materials and more sophisticated troubleshooting methods could be introduced. As mentioned above, we are developing a suite of tools to ease the burden of diagnosing issues.
7:25 — “One of the most common Spike criticisms is that Stern has created many different playfield node and LED boards…”
Response:The variety of node boards has narrowed. Games have unique LED boards and this will likely continue to support unique game features.
The LED boards that are a unique shapeare specific to the game.
9:00 — “Some Spike boards have switch blocks but little information is provided about them”.
Response:The DIP switches are all documented in the manuals.
9:41 — “Replacing them is an expensive, time-consuming nightmare” (referencing the SMT LEDs)
Response:Again, this is common technology; SMT parts are currently used in consumer, commercial and industrial products worldwide.They do require specific techniques, training and tools but years ago when pinball went to solid state, that technology seemed equally daunting at first. There are numerous YouTube video’s on SMT repair tutorials.
9:50 — Lack of sockets for lighting …
Response:LEDs fail far less frequently.LED’s are not stressed and being SMT will not be affected by vibration.
In addition we are in the midst of transitioning most of our connectors away from insulation displacement technology to “crimp and poke” style connectors for additional reliability.
12:00 — this is a common refrain - that everything was done to increase Stern’s profits at the expense of quality.
Response:This is simply not true. Stern employs some of the most dedicated and passionate game designers, developers, artists, sound designers and engineers that have ever worked on pinball machines. Their collective portfolio of hit games, patents and awards have been accomplished under the brand banners of the best pinball companies in the history of the game and the portfolio speaks for itself. They are all players and consumers of the Stern product and guardians of the vision to create the best pinball machines in the world.
The Spike system has brought significant power to the designers; with the ability to create an inventory of flexible and modular components that allows devices that are designed for a specific game to be brought to bear on a different game with different game play results. In addition the system has brought scalable power to lamps, LCD displays, coils, switches, sensors, electromagnetic devices, motors and numerous other components.
14:40 — talks about how LCD should be less expensive than DMD.
Response: The LCD and DMD hard cost is similar; the cost of electronics to drive the LCD is much more. The art and code development cost per game is much higher.
15:48 — Power switch.
Response: The power switch was moved to the backbox in order to comply with FCC testing standards and to increase safety by removing all main power from the main cabinet; if a few cents in wire length was saved it was incidental and not at all the design intent.
On ELG
Response: the original ELG games that the operator refers to were intended to test a market segment. Every game was sold and the program taught us a lot. We intend to have a presence in consumer products at many price points and that research effort is ongoing. The Spike system was not designed specifically for those games but those games did provided an opportunity to do a pilot run of the system in order to increase reliability once the system was launched in the commercial games. The ability of the system to scale up and down was a design parameter in the original design brief for the system.
On Batman and the notion that we are going away from designing full games:
Response: We produce 3 cornerstone games every year. In addition we may produce smaller runs of studio titles and other special games. Every cornerstone is designed from scratch and includes a Pro, Premium and LE version. Batman was not a cornerstone game; it was an anniversary edition designed to celebrate 30 years of Stern Pinball. The designers chose to build on their previous Batman model in order to improve on their own design. The game was also the first Spike 2 LCD game which required substantial effort from the design team for that reason. Development on the code is ongoing and the team is dedicated and committed to finishing the game. The key members of the team intend to buy the game with their own money and add it to their personal collections and to that end they want it to be something they can be proud off. They will not abandon the game.
JJ

Yeah that's what he basically said.

Except that he clearly answered and presented "alternative facts" to every beef aired by the offended party.

These guys can't win with some folks, clearly. We'll be hearing about how "Stern moved the power switch to save 16 cents" till the end of time.

Because they did. It's a switching power supply. They could have left it where it was and not run mains power down to it. But that would have cost more.

Not sure what you are trying to say here? The power switch cuts the power to the power supply.. which is 110v AC power.. which UL did not want inside of the lower cab because of the access door.

JJ

230V in MOST countries of the world.

We have items tested for FCC compliance regularly by world recognised testing laboratories and not once have any of our products been criticised or failed testing because of the mounting position of the mains switch.

I call BS on that point!

There you go, excellent job JJ.

Thanks for getting the answers and to Gomez for clarifying and communicating.

Not my cup of tea but i agree with John I, theme is MUCH better than DI so if it plays great I'm sure it will sell.

I hope I'm right in saying TaG looks to be an LE/Prem featured pin at $6499 Au, $1800 Au less than a Stern pro, Which will soon be $2k less when Stern jack up the price on their next release

Sounded like an employee towing the company line to me

So let's just get this straight:

There's literally no response a Stern higher up could give to this video that would placate you?

Some dude you had never heard of 24 hours ago makes a video and it's gospel, infallible, and incontrovertible proof that Stern was behind 9/11?

I'm honestly pretty shocked they bothered to respond to this at all - much less with lightning speed- especially since all we've been hearing for about 2 years is how Stern ignores their customers and refuses to publicly respond to perceive "QC" issues.

I'm not trying to shine you guys on - I just honestly, purely, really want to know what you guys want on a reasonable level.

Or someone pointing out the obvious bias and ignorance of the OP.

Gomez took the time to answer, which is something, even if you don't agree with his responses.

But more importantly, did he "tow" the company line or did he "toe" it? Of course "tow the line" works fine if you prefer deep-sea fishing metaphors to lining up metaphors.

Toe Truck (resized).png

Sold out to Distributors yes, make no mistakes there are plenty available NIB still.

Just watched the video, then read the rebuttal. Thanks to both the posters and George Gomez too. It's all interesting. For me, a home pinball collector, fun trumps all of it. I've played a lot of pinball games, from EMs to Star Wars and purchased a few over the years. I don't care much if it's Spike, SAM, WPC, or Chicago Games. They're all "maintainable" enough for me. I'm more interested in cool toys, satisfying shots, awesome sounds, callouts, music, "wow" moments, challenges that keep me coming back, etc. By those measures, in my opinion, Stern has work to do. Sometimes I wonder if their leadership gets it. I own a GB Premium, which I think is "funnest" Spike game so far. I love it, but not more than Addams Family, Monster Bash, etc. Perhaps the proton streams toy would have helped, but Stern yanked it. Perhaps a code update would help, but when is that coming? At this point, because of the fun factor, I'd tend to buy a remake of, say Kingpin or Cactus Canyon Continued, before I'd buy a Spike game like Game of Thrones, BM66, Kiss, Aerosmith or Star Wars. Stern says "pinball has to be profitable". That's true, but not the message they should give to potential buyers. It's has to be fun. More fun will lead to more profits.

It was a rather compelling video...and here we have 2 simultaneous threads on fire discussing it...slap a slice of what i'm guessing are underwhelming star wars orders on top of that with one of Stern's top distros knocking on the front door and ya, you got Gomez's attention.

And to be honest, I damn near pulled the trigger on a pro after watching some youtube video where you said you would probably buy one...but this spike stuff flipped me to a scared little bit*h...

The 15-20k thing gets thrown around like it is standard Stern pricing. It was for one model of one boutique release. TNA, Houdini, JJP are all higher than Stern Pros. Sounds like Thunderbirds will be about the same as a Stern Pro, but until they start selling and are put under the same scrutiny as Stern gets all the time I think it is too early to start crowing about it.

And taking advantage of a minority? Hyperbole much? No one needs a pinball machine. Ever. For any reason. Nope. "Waaah, Stern took advantage of me and made me spend 5500 dollars on Star Wars and now I feel dirty". lol

Well, everything he said must be true, because it was on the internet. And his agenda wasn't obvious at all. The guy gave no hard numbers on defect rates, incurred costs, even said Spike was as reliable as SAM, which is hardly an indictment. Are Spike games going to be running and supported in 20 years? Who knows? JJP, Spooky, Homepin, Stern, could all be bankrupt and long gone. Less than 20 years ago Williams bailed on pinball and everyone thought that was the end. Hell, I might not even be alive in 20 years.

Get a game, play it for a few years (or months, or however long it takes you to get your yaya's out, then sell it and move on. Life is too short to be worrying about this bullsh*t. People are acting like Spike is supposed to be managing nuclear reactors or driving people's pacemakers ffs.

Look....the truth is the only BIG problem with Spike is multiple node boards in all the machines so you are limited in interchangeability. The cost to replace a node board is ridiculous. If it was 25-$50 to replace a node then not a big deal. The reliability of the boards in Spike are still an unknown. The reality is until someone hacks it and creates a cheaper replacement Stern has everyone bent over taking it as they see fit at $300 for a node board.

All the other QC issues don't help but most of that is minor. Not saying it is acceptable for $5K-$15K purchase. Buyers should expect much more for the price.

Simple answer to all of this is don't buy NIB. Look at your other options. Buy used and save some money.

Aerosmith has bugger all on it? GB Pro? Metallica? AC/DC? I agree, Star Wars is stripped down. That's unfortunate but the solution is, if you don't like what they are selling, don't buy. If enough people agree with you, they will start adding stuff, start reducing price, or go out of business.

Wha? Where did I say (or even imply) they *should* charge more for it? What I am saying (again), is no one is getting taken advantage of. See above.

I agree with his points that Spike replacement boards should be cheaper, and I also agree they should be standardized. Everything else was kind of nitpicky imo.

Again, I say wha? Where did I say ACDC had a complex playfield? You said it had "bugger all" on it. I think for a Pro level machine it is decent. As for reproducing games from 20 years ago, the only thing it tells me that the those games were awesome, not that all modern games have something wrong with them.

You are well skilled at jumping to conclusions about stuff I post. I am not implying anything. I am saying outright that crying about being taken advantage of when you are a grown-up buying a toy is freaking hilarious. As for your point. of course they can charge whatever they want for their products. You understand how a free market economy works right? Only the market and the success/failure of their company will determine if they were right or wrong.

Have had several NIB Sterns, had clearcoat and paint chipping off of my X-Men playfield. Stern replaced it. No other problems. Do the problems exist for others? Yes. Shit happens with any manufacturer, the important thing is if they stand behind it, and in my experience, Stern does.

As for code updates, are you seriously complaining that there are too many code updates, so you have to re-learn strategies? lol, you have to be the first person ever to complain on Pinside that Stern has too many code updates. As for what I do, or do not do with my pins and my hobby, none of your business. You obviously don't like Stern pins, or what Stern does, so don't support the company. It isn't rocket science.

Apples and oranges in all aspects. Just the weight alone tell you there is more "stuff" in these machines than a stern pro. I don't know about Houdini, but I do know about JJP pins, I've had all three titles on route and they are built like tanks. They are all jammed packed with toys and features, and all versions have the same game play and until DI came along all had identical populated playfields. Difference with DI Is lighted ramps, a city scape plastic in the back and a different theater sign maybe, but all have the same ball paths, ramps and physics, just a little different astetics. You cannot place these pins in the same category as a stern pro, the only comparable stern would be an LE or maybe a premium.

I wasn't the one trying to put them in the same category. That was kind of my point. RGR was talking about Stern and their charging 15-20k for NIB, and I was pointing out that was the exception, rather than the norm. That is all.

I 100% agree. JJP pins weigh more and have more stuff. I am impressed with how they are put together, and how much is jammed in there. When they come out with a theme that I can get behind I look forward to purchasing one. I do have to say though, for all of their stuff, I haven't found them all that much more fun to play than some Stern Pros and in some cases, not fun at all. Thought WOZ was a snore fest, and Dialed In is fun, but just doesn't give me that "one more game" feel. To each their own.

I'd also like to add the fact that I have several sterns pro and premium on route and they have been great, I have not experienced the cabinet and playfield issues that everybody runs Stern pins in the toilet about. I have not had any issues with any of my spike or Sam systems at home or on route other than a loose connector. I believe some of that's luck, but more of it is how you handle and take care of a pin. Stern makes some awesome pins and I hope they continue to do so. I'm like anybody else, of course I'd like to be able to buy them cheaper and I hate when cost goes up on anything.

Gotcha. I can agree somewhat with you on the JJP pins. I never understood what was so great about them until I had a chance to play one and open it up in a quiet environment and not have a line of people behind me. Until DI came along, their pins have been more of a quest style pin that builds up over a long time vs a fast build up. They are all magnificent machines but do require a period of learning to understand it all. Sterns for the most part can be understood in a short time compared to a JJP. Not saying it's good or bad, that's just my experience and I love and hate things about both.

Could it be because pinball was dying a long slow death in the 90s and no one was interested in buying NIB games based on 80s titles? Pinball is hot right now, AFM and MM are classics with high demand. If they re-make every single 90s title and no one buys any more modern titles you might be onto something, but you just aren't making any sense.

You got me. A NIB pin had problems. Stern is the first and only manufacturer to have had this happen. Good catch.

The rate of incident increasing is yet to be proven. The internet wasn't around in the 90s with everyone freaking out everytime they saw a sliver of ghosting. Could it be increasing, and because of shortcuts? Sure, I suppose. But if they fix it for me I don't really care.

Then don't put up with it. Again, just don't buy. Good luck.

Dude, *you* brought it up by talking about whether I "participate in comps" or whether I route my machines. Are you drunk?

Because you keep going on and on like Stern impregnated your dog or something. I am suggesting it for your mental health. You're welcome.

Homepin survives by manufacturing and shipping replacement boards and arcade machines, which they have been doing for several years.

People generally care way too much what other people think around here.

I think a lot of us are just trying to make the best informed decision possible on these big ticket purchases, so we land here for that information.

And its not just the guy who made that video, add up all the posts from end users posting about about multiple board failures on brand new games and it does paint an ugly picture.

Are you doing a Socratic dialogue here? Reads like one of xTheBlackKnightx's shorter posts.