(Topic ID: 17434)

Should JJP Reproduce A-List B/W Titles?


By Tom_in_NoVA

7 years ago



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  • 123 posts
  • 76 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Pimp77
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    There are 123 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 7 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    If you read carefully you will notice the article was written in 2001/2002.

    I probably glossed over it when I saw the publish date of 2010. The thing is, I saw another article circa 2009 with similar stats but this was the best I could dig up. I've also seen mention people in the know that Stern can currently manufacture 30 pins/day which puts those numbers right in the mid 9000's per year. The most recent example of a high volume pin was POTC rumored to be 6000 (not sure I believe that number as they don't seem that common), but I still think 9000/year is more accurate number than 4500/year in 2012... could be 7k or 8k, but 2011-2012 should have higher sales than 2009-10 based on the success of titles.

    Quoted from DCFAN:

    The thing that is scary about the more recent year's production numbers is that the LE's are probably close to half of the pins made for those respective titles (i.e AC/DC, TF, XMEN, Avatar will all probably be close to 50/50 LE to Pro models). This is even more likely to be true when you consider that us collectors have become the predominate market for NIB pinball machines.

    I was thinking that collectors represent nearly half of Stern's sales too but was vehemently disagreed with, citing, if nothing else, the large sales of Pro models in Europe. If that's true, I can't believe that LE sales are half of each run. I think that some titles have runs of 1500 and others have runs closer to 4000 which varies by demand.

    Anyway, Stern doesn't exactly publish this info so it's all anecdotal evidence.

    #102 7 years ago

    Baiter, the sequenced serial numbers were brought up by Keith, a former long term Stern employee, so those numbers appear to tell a story. He would know better than anybody else that posts here what the truth is.

    #103 7 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    Stern can currently manufacture 30 pins/day which puts those numbers right in the mid 9000's per year.

    That only works if they run a 7 day a week operation. A 5 day work week nets them about 6,000.

    #104 7 years ago

    I don't understand the point of the discussion, particularly coming out of the JJP camp. And I really don't understand the disdain, when regardless of the number produced it is far more than JJP is currently churning out.

    #105 7 years ago
    Quoted from gambit3113:

    I don't understand the point of the discussion, particularly coming out of the JJP camp. And I really don't understand the disdain, when regardless of the number produced it is far more than JJP is currently churning out.

    My comment was driven by a desire for accuracy. Not all of us are in a camp. I think Stern makes some great games and want them and all the new companies to flourish. More choices for us!

    Post edited by txstargazer3 : Typo

    #106 7 years ago
    Quoted from gambit3113:

    I don't understand the point of the discussion, particularly coming out of the JJP camp. And I really don't understand the disdain, when regardless of the number produced it is far more than JJP is currently churning out.

    Based on how the discussion started evolve on page 2 of this thread, I feel that the discussion is about expectations of availability and sales forecasts. How many WOZ can JJP sell or any other title that JJP makes in the next few years. Certainly the results Stern has been achieving in sales is a partial tell as to how well both JJP and Stern can expect to do in the future. Maybe Stern was holding back on production to some extent to cause some degree of scarcity and demand for those titles and thus cause collectors to do impulse buys on future NIB pins before even seeing the product.
    For example, many people were looking for NIB SM, IM and TRON recently, but Stern could not make anymore for various reasons. Now the availability of those used machines is limited and the prices are being driven up for all those titles. BDK is another pin that seems hard to get.

    It would be great if Stern sells 10,000 of XMEN, because that would mean there is a thriving market that would likely be big enough to support both Stern and JJP to do well. That is what Jack was probably referring to when he was saying he hoped XMEN would sell well. I know that he does not want to put Stern out of business. He even said something to the effect of who wants to be last on a sinking ship. I just think there is evidence that Stern's business model presently is not to make as many pins as they can, but rather to make a limited run of each theme that will sell-out.

    #107 7 years ago
    Quoted from txstargazer3:

    My comment was driven by a desire for accuracy. Not all of us are in a camp.

    I meant literally the JJP camp. This topic was resurrected by Keith for the explicit purpose of challenging and rebutting Stern's sales claims. I just don't get the point, especially now.

    Quoted from DCFAN:

    I know that he does not want to put Stern out of business. He even said something to the effect of who wants to last on a sinking ship.

    "Eventually you plan to have dinosaurs in your dinosaur tour. Right? Hello?"

    - Dr. Ian Malcolm - Jurassic Park

    #108 7 years ago
    Quoted from txstargazer3:

    Baiter said:
    Stern can currently manufacture 30 pins/day which puts those numbers right in the mid 9000's per year.

    That only works if they run a 7 day a week operation. A 5 day work week nets them about 6,000.

    My estimate was based on a 6 day work week. 7 days would be 11k.

    Back on topic, the discussion went the route of "how many can JJP produce" for very relevant reasons. There is a minimum production number that makes it worth the effort. It's not a big deal for Stern to switch back and forth for different game production, so it's not that... it's more a question of a minimum production number per game to make the effort worth while. Stern seems to be sticking to lower-than-demand production numbers on popular titles simply because they realize that saturating this limited collector/op market now will reduce sales or prices for them in the future. If we have JJP producing 3 games a year like Stern, there's going to be some saturation in the NIB market, even if all JJP is producing is MM, MB, CV.

    I'd personally rather see both companies focus on creating new titles than re-hash old ones, it's the only thing that will keep the excitement in pinball. Look at the X-Men threads.. do you really think you'll see that much excitement if MB is being reproduced?

    #109 7 years ago

    I'd love to see something like Jack*Bot for some of the classic B/W A-list games, take the same layout and put an LCD and updated art and ruleset, does the parts license JJP has from Planetary allow them to do that?

    #110 7 years ago

    I don't generally "speak for JJP," I was more engaging the community in discussion. My presentation of facts is not to be dismissive of Stern, but to, well, present facts. I did work there for 9 years. If facts are not welcome here, or you feel the fact that I work for the competition now taints them (the facts), I can refrain. But nothing in the past really affects JJP now, and I figured people might be more interested in actual information, especially as one previous poster ironically talked about misinformation on pinside. Personally, I feel that people generally appreciate accurate information.

    If you doubt me, you can always do some homework on the pinball serial database. Here's some fun numbers (approximately the earliest reasonable serial number for given years):

    2000: 152814 (earliest SX)
    2001: 156770 (earliest HRC)
    2002: 162469 (earliest Playboy)
    2003: 169008 (earliest TSPP)
    2004: 176023 (think it was earliest LOTR)
    2005: 189401 (earliest Sopranos)
    2006: 197873 (earliest WPT)
    2007: 206515 (think I used a FG here)
    2008: 216310 (latest WOF)

    2008 is actually pretty bad because WOF's run spans the end of year, but I didn't have the patience to get more accurate numbers. Probably one of the 213K ones would be more accurate.

    Believe it or not, I do tend to try and limit myself to facts as opposed to opinion. I certainly have opinions, but I know for a fact they would not be appreciated.

    #111 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinball_keefer:

    Believe it or not, I do tend to try and limit myself to facts as opposed to opinion. I certainly have opinions, but I know for a fact they would not be appreciated.

    I think everyone appreciates facts and your involvement on the board greatly. I am greatly hoping the pinball market expands and all manufacturers sell more pins than they are expecting to sell. Now, please make Jack ship my invisiglass to me!

    -1
    #112 7 years ago

    puke on the hobbit theme! (nothing personal)

    #113 7 years ago

    I don't have a problem with facts and figures. I just wonder about the desire to set the record straight and the motivation. Sniping at Stern's reported production numbers seems to be an exercise in quibbling, especially when the production count of the company that this thread is presuming to laud, is stuck in neutral at 0.

    #114 7 years ago

    His motivation appears to be to share facts >> he just said that!!! There does not always have to be an ulterior motive.

    Thanks for sharing keefer. Insider insight is always appreciated.

    #115 7 years ago

    Information? Facts? Accuracy? Don't be needin' none of that confusing stuff in here!

    #116 7 years ago
    Quoted from gambit3113:

    I just wonder about the desire to set the record straight and the motivation.

    I have a strong desire to correct misinformation when/where I can. Believe me, I could do it a lot more than I do, but don't for various reasons.

    It's gotten me into trouble before; I've certainly been trolled into posting correct information in the face of blatant stupidly wrong stuff before... But it only works once per person, and works less and less as time goes on.

    At any rate, I don't see where one works or what one's company produces has anything to do with facts/truth.

    #117 7 years ago

    Tutankhamun
    Family machine amAzing artwork and toys and gameplay potential LE gold edition or las Vegas for the adults

    3 months later
    #118 7 years ago

    JJP should make a 20th anniversary AFM LE in 2015 and a MM LE in 2017 after they have a few successful games under their belt.

    These 20th anniversary LE editions can contain some new tech, maybe incorporating some of the more popular mods, LCD screens, more elaborate and protective body armor,, etc. Pre-orders could begin in late 2013 and then late 2015.

    It will also be an avenue to sell/create a new run of plastics, ramps, decals, etc to support the old machines.

    The CRAZY prices that some collectors are paying to acquire, fix, and upgrade these machines seems to indicate that there may be a pile of money available for JJP on a relatively small number of LE machines.

    I don't know what the magic number is but it could be as low as 1000 machines.

    I would be way more likely to pay 8-10k for a brand spanking new MM or AFM with some new tech than 12k for even a HEP restore of an old one.

    #119 7 years ago

    I don't want to see the same s*)t we've seen before. The ramp DMD patterns have been outplayed..just as much as all EM layouts have been over done a million times before. We need something refreshing and completely new. P3 type stuff.

    Post edited by absocountry2 : Profanity edited

    #120 7 years ago

    Three of the most highly rated, original themed, and popular pins in the entire known universe - AFM, MM, and MB have runs of 3450, 4016, and 3361. Survival numbers are unknown, but certain to be less.

    One of the pinball manufacturers, I suggest JJP, has to do the responsible thing and increase the population of these pins and the replacement parts.

    Kind of like Panda and Tiger breeding programs. Or are you tired of Pandas and Tigers too?

    #121 7 years ago
    Quoted from RTR:

    Or are you tired of Pandas and Tigers too?

    Tired of them too.

    Replacement parts isn't a problem for AFM, MM, MB.

    Time for new critters.

    LTG

    #122 7 years ago

    Ouch. Poor Pandas.

    #123 7 years ago
    Quoted from Tommi_Gunn:

    I think they need to see how woz sells before moving forward. What's the true le oz stats? 1000 sold? Where are these people? I would think a large percentage of sales would be from here. I think pinside represents a decent number of pin collectors. Why is the woz owner list so small? Less than 100 counted from pinside members? That opened my eyes. Where's the other 900 going to? woz fans? rgp members? distributors? Really? 900.
    With all due respect to JJP. Are they making any profit from the first game? Are there enough funds for a 2nd, 3rd game? I hope so, but it seems like it's been more loss, than profit. I think about the list of expenses, and it makes me wonder. I purchased 4 nib sterns, since they been making woz. Feels like dog years. My pin money keeps going to Stern. I've been waiting for the updates like everyone else. Hoping to play it, it before I buy in.
    I hear about what's next for JJP, and all I can think is, let's finish up woz guys. This has been going on for a long time. I'm sure some things are beyond their control, and you have to go through the right channels. There's been some hang ups. I get it. But as a consumer, I wonder if title #2 and #3 is going to happen. Hope I'm wrong. I'd like to see something after woz.

    Why do people not post in the owners list? Why do people feel the need to? I'm a future owner and don't want or feel the need to post in the so called owners thread. I personally know of three others that feel the same way. Are you seriously doubting that all 1000 are gone?? Really? Ok...

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