OP, you keep talking about "fair market value." When I hear that term I think of what a hypothetical average buyer would pay for a particular machine, in the particular condition that particular machine happens to be in. So a TAF with mold and planking will have a different "fair market value" than a fresh-off-route TAF, which will in turn have a different "fair market value" than a TAF that's received a recent, thorough cleaning and adjustment.

It sounds to me like you enjoy "shopping" games yourself, and don't value certain "mods" such as LEDs, so, to you they do not add to the value of a pin. But surely you recognize that some buyers do value these things, which is why they increase the "fair market value" (which is not what a particular pin is worth to you but instead what it is worth to a hypothetical average buyer).

Look at it this way:

You want to buy a 2010 Toyota Corolla. Blue Book value on the car is (near as makes no difference) $10k. You're looking at two available for sale from private sellers.

Car 1 has 30k miles. It has new tires and brakes. The oil was just changed, and coolant was just flushed. It has never needed any body work, or major repair. It has a clear title. It has receipts for all the work that was done. It's $10,500.

Car 2 has 50k miles. The tires and brakes are original and are worn out. The oil was changed around 5k miles ago, probably. It has a few very minor dings, but has a clear title also. It doesn't have receipts for anything. It costs $9500. It will cost $900 for tires, oil, brakes, etc. on a good day if you do the work yourself and lose a whole day shopping for and installing parts.

Which do you buy?

Good points made here. "Fair market value" can be very subjective. Factors that can influence what a game will actually sell for include but aren't limited to:
Geographic location.
Functional condition.
Cosmetic condition of a LOT of things, like the cabinet, playfield, plastics. Corrosion.
Condition of circuit boards.
Whether there are any hacks in the game.
How it plays.
Whether routine maintenance has been performed recently.

OP: The value of any collectible item is based on condition. The same is true of a car. For cars, there is fair, average, above-average, excellent, etc. How clean and/or waxed the vehicle is directly impacts the actual (or perceived) condition. As a seller, you can increase the value (and I have) by indicating I just had the car serviced and try to convince the buyer that it will require no effort on their part. I would say the same is true of a pin.

What I find very funny is that you talk about what should or shouldn't increase (or decrease) the value beyond "fair-market value". What does fair market value mean to a collectible item? There is no such thing. You can determine what other machines have gone for, but that has implication on what your particular pin is or isn't worth. If it has add-ons (ie: toppers, playfield toys, after-market items, or even LEDs as you mentioned), that *IS* going to increase the value to the right buyer. That is their fair-market value.

If you don't like the fact that a seller is marking up a game because it's "shopped"/serviced, then don't buy from him/her. Go somewhere else. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything.

The biggest issue IMHO with the term "shopped" is that there is no clear definition of what that means. It means one thing to one person and a different thing to another.

Jaz

because most LEDs look like ass and people just think brighter is better.

+1 You just get in a fight with the wife? Go bitch somewhere else!

You don't have to buy a machine with LEDs at the machine + LED price. But it seems lame to get mad at a seller asking that price, since the LEDs (and the effort that went into install them) are presumably worth something to some folks, even if they're worthless to you (and BTW, I personally agree that there are many, many ugly LED jobs out there).

LEDs are like any other mod. If the installer wants a quick sale, they may have to remove the mod (or take a loss on it) because some buyers won't value it at all. Or they can leave the mod in and attempt to recoup some/all of their mod costs, but may have to wait for a sale because they'll be waiting on a buyer that will appreciate the mods, decreasing the size of their potential market.

And I won't pay you more for having bad taste.

no, but he did pass english.

who's mad?

I would have said OP.

FMV, as the term is used by the OP, holds different for a game missing parts, one complete and un-shoppped, one complete and shopped, one restored, one broken, and one with mold, ect. They all have completely different values in an open market.

This holds very little relevance to the absolute fair market value of a "shopped game".

I am trying to understand the logic here but shopped Pinbot #1 and shopped Pinbot #2 are going to be held to MUCH higher stipulations than simply "are they shoped?" when trying to determine a fair price. If they are in EXACTLY the same condition in every exact way, the shopped one will fetch a higher price in an open market. No idea how it could be any other way.

As a rule on the internet, most people ask a few hundred more than the price they are willing to accept. (I have always despised this and just ask the price I want for things. Saves time and BS back and forth about offers and such.) Maybe you are referring to that ideal rather than the "shopped" one you proposed.

I think there are a few situations being lumped into one in this post. First if you bought a really nice pin, cleaned everything, installed LEDs and took care of it, then by all means please sell it for above market price. Pinsiders and collectors will appreciate your effort. However, if I you put $3000 worth of time and material into a pin which is only worth $1000 at best, well then you sir are an idiot if you expect someone to pay above $1000.

Sometimes people do the minimum amount of work in order to charge the unsuspecting a large sum of cash. When I first read this post I got the impression that this is what Giardiasis referencing. People use "shopping" in order to justify stupidly high pricing on a pin when they may have done very little.

I only see pins in 4 catigories:
1. Non working/routed
2. Players quality / non shopped
3. Shopped working
4. Collectors quality

I wouldn't bash a seller for wanting more $ for LEDs or mods but most people who collect can do their own custom job. I like shopping my pins when they arrive so I stay clear of "shopped" priced games.

I want to join the argument but I also want people to sell me shopped, LED'd machines without any price increase LED's are worthless, JD is a $1400 game.

--> o This is a circle, please, talk around it....

When I buy or sell a machine I look at it like this.
Buying....

Less work for me when I get it home = pay more $$

More work for me when I get it home = pay less $$

Selling....

Less work for the buyer when he/she gets it home = get more $$

More work for the buyer when he/she gets it home = get less $$

I think thats common sence. And how every buy/sell transaction works.
Unless I'm missing something?

Sounds like T2a was a great deal - why would you want T2b so badly?
Unless it was actually in much better shape?

I was thinking the same thing. As "they're both identical in every way" why in the world would you pay $700 more for the T2b? You wouldn't and neither would most.

I wish you the best of luck finding an unshopped pin, I really do. I've never purchased a shopped machine because:

1. I enjoy restoring them myself and
2. They will typically cost more as a shopped pin has greater value.

When you purchase an unshopped machine you are assuming a greater risk and potential cost. It's as simple as that.

I get where you are coming from, but take choice A. It's nice to have choices and that hypo seller won't do well with game B. In the end you will value the game for what it is. Btw, I've always taken the term "OP" to mean original poster. You using OP is talking in the 3rd person. Anyway, happy

So... You expect to pay the same price for a game that's shopped as opposed to fresh off route? Thats asinine.

Christ, close this thread. OP, don't buy the game if you think it's over priced. Why do people advertise shopped and charge above avg? Who gives a rats ass. You are not going to change it by posting here. Pay what you want to lay and move on if it's not right!

Huh?

Agreed. There's also a subset of buyers who don't know *how* to shop a pin and therefore are willing to pay a little bit of a premium for one that has already been gone through. How do you think that people like TNT Amusements stay in business?

The thread just keeps getting worse. Giardiasis, I really don't think pinball is the right hobby for you. Maybe a different hobby would suit you better. You know, like crack.

If you take 2 of the same games in similar condition and shop the lesser of the 2. Give the buyer a choice pin1 for 2k or pin2 for at least $300 more. Guess which one sells first every time. I myself will gladly pay more for a shopped game.

I have some unshopped games for fair market price if you want to stop by and see if your mind changes.

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I don't have a lot of experience with selling as I've only owned a few machines but I will say this... When I bought my Data East Star Wars as soon as I got it home I gutted it, cleaned it from head to toe, re-rubbered it and waxed it. (And when I say head to toe, I'm talking play field. I wouldn't necc. call my job a "full shop" cause there's still old switches and fuses and crap bouncing around in my cabinet. I don't really fuss about that stuff too much.)

Anyway... that "semi-shop" job cost me a few bucks and about 13 hours of my time. If a seller told me a pin was $X pre-shopped and $X + $100 or $200 because of 10+ hours of work they did cleaning it up and upon inspection that appeared to be a legit claim... I'd say it would be a $100 or $200 well spent.

And in regards to the comment the OP made about selling cars... I don't think cleaning your car INCREASES your price. But, I would say NOT CLEANING your car before trying to sell it drastically decreases the chances of you selling it and might lower what the buying is willing to offer because of their perceived lower value of what you're selling.

The same argument could be made about real estate... What's wrong with selling you're house with crap all over the place? The buyer should know that crap will be no longer there once they move in? Answer... People think less of the house and see less of the positive points thus lowering their perceived value/their offer.

For me it wouldn't make or break a purchase of a pin but it's worth knowing.

If a and b are identical in EVERY way, why on earth would you want or buy b for $700 more?

Make it stop. Make the pricing threads stop.

Because Coca-Cola.

First game was Pepsi.

There's as many opinions about shopping a pin as there are conditions of pins. What you should evaluate and pay for is the condition of the pin at that moment in time, regardless of how it got there. The plastic is clean, you say? Huh, I don't care whether it has been clean for a hundred years or you cleaned it yesterday. That is the what I am looking at as I formulate an opinion of what I think that I would be willing to pay for it. I might simply pay more because I simply want the pin more than the next guy.

There's about 500 LED discussion threads. If you don't like them that's fine, join the incandescent fan club too.

Simple. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

My issue with shopped is how broad a term it is. One person calls a clean center playfield with ball trails on ramps and behind any ramp or pop bumper shopped.

To me a shopped machine should be totally taken apart. Entire playfield cleaned up and if needed touched up. Should have either a clear coat or non bubbled Mylar on it. All of the lights should be in working order. Led or regular bulb they should all work. All of the switches should be adjusted and working properly. New Rubber, Flippers rebuilt. All of the displays should be working correctly. New balls.

Does any of that sound like asking to much for use of the word shopped?

Yes. I think you're darn near bordering on "light restore".

To me, shopping is a tear down of the major playfield components, removing plastics and cleaning under them, replacing burnt out bulbs, all rubber rings and post rubbers, rebuilding pop bumpers in obvious need of rebuilding (broken skirts), cleaning all plastics and ramps on both sides, rebuilding flippers and putting new sleeves in all of the important coils.

Shopping a pin the right way is a pain in the ass and take at least a couple of hours IMO to do it right. Although I enjoy shopping my pins, it's value is at least at $150 if done properly. $250-300 is probably more realistic for a thorough job in terms of value.

I don't think this has any bearing on shopped or not. A restored playfield might get a clear coat, and you have to do a heck of a lot of prep work to prepare for a clear coat, and it can be very expensive to have someone do it for you. I hate mylar and remove it from all my games, I like straight up bare playfields and just wax them for protection.

It takes me a couple hours just to do a light cleaning. A full shop the "right" way is going to take a lot more than a few hours, IMO.

A couple hours to

"Shop a pin the right way"

Oh brother.

I happen to do all that and more. I like to replace flipper bats, cabinet buttons, screws, washers, metal posts etc. I like my machines to be in a close to like new as possible. Plus, I wax under the apron, all metal/ball contact surfaces including troughs, ramps, guides, etc. I will take weeks to go through a machine. If I sold some of my machines, there would be very little to do to them. You are absolutely right. What you listed is a true shop job to me.

Why has anyone engauged the OP in even beginning a conversation about the value of a shopped bs nonshopped pin? If he can't see the value in it, that's his problem. Not trying to be rude but come on. pins are like classic cars, condition is everything.

_{Post edited by inhomearcades: damn iphone autocorrect}

But to the OP, that new engine, paint job, new tires and leather interior you put in that car should be free and you should not have the "audacity to expect a future buyer to pay for it" lol

LEDs on a pinball machine are just like a swimming pool in the back yard of a house you're buying. Some people are looking for them and are willing to pay more for a house that has one. to others, they're a hassle and see no value in them and therefore, aren't willing to pay more for the house because there's a pool. That said, the seller has all the right to ask what he wants for his house. He's just hoping someone comes along looking for a house with a pool that's already in the back yard because of the value they see in the pool being there.
Especially if there's a color changing LED in the pool!!

To me a shopped out pin should be able to go home and play well. have no errors and be clean. When I say bubbled mylar or touch up i am talking of things that would effect game play in major ways. not the slight cosmetic bubble but something that will change the balls directions severely
.

I'm not anti LED at all. 7 of my 9 are full LED. I'm anti crappy burn holes in your head LEDs.

I agree with that, EXCEPT for the part about clearcoat. If I'm looking at a shopped Mata Hari, I don't expect clearcoat or mylar on it.

When I shop a game, though, I do a full top-side teardown, clean and wax. I do a flipper rebuild the majority of the time. All switches are made to work. New balls are installed.