Let's just stop using that blanket term and detail what we did. I believe in full transparency when selling a pin, I list every last thing I did to it.

I disagree with ops post.

I just spent a lot of time and effort, not to mention money shopping my gnr. If I sold it preshopped, it woulda been a lot less.

And why wouldn't you sell it for more if it had leds? Someone had to buy those, right?

Totally disagree with your post.

Agree, just be honest with what exactly was "shopped" and let the market determine the price. LEDs are worth something to some people. Post lots of detailed pics and describe the good AND bad. Most Pinsiders seem to follow these rules. I've never had issues when all my questions are answered.

While always a good topic, this subject matter has been extensively discussed here on pinside. Some judicious searching here on the forum can give you plenty of insight on this topic.

While I'm not sure there have been any new developments on this topic, you never know.

If I am buying a used car, I damn well WILL expect to pay less if the interior of the car is a mess, and the exterior is not clean.

Same goes for a pinball. If the game is dirty and generally unkempt, I expect a lower asking price.

I completely ignore the description "shopped". I don't buy machines in routed condition, so it's not applicable to the machines that interest me. I buy machines that are currently in home use, and certainly could have been routed at one time, but that's history. I expect any machine to have good maintenance, which should include decent rubber, coil sleeves, and other "consumables" replaced as needed to keep the machine in good working order. If a machine is needing "shopped" I would deduct the cost of such from the purchase price, and certainly not add value because it was maintained as required.

"Shopped" means just as much to me as "HUO". Nothing. They are not consistently applied and in the end, current condition is the only thing that matters to me and probably most buyers.

If the machine I am looking at is very dirty and has not been cleaned in 10 years, it is worth less to most people (especially people that do not know how or enjoy cleaning/repairing machines) due to the work needed to clean it up. Simple as that...

I disagree too with the OP. A good shop job has value. I pay more for well shopped out pins.
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I do 'get it' that a subset of buyers would rather buy a pin for $2,000 dirty than pay $2,600 for one that has had the treatment. A subset of those buyers would then want to talk you down to $1,400 because it's dirty.

You're right. I should put $250 worth of leds into a pin and turn around and sell it to you and NOT account for the money I've put into it.

You're gotta be kidding me.

Honestly, this has to be one of the most ridiculous threads I've ever read on this site.

I pay less for poorly maintained pins.

If you're buying them, nothing of course.

Not as ridiculous as the thread a while back asking what kind of music everyone likes.Whats next????Favorite color???

I don't think it is audacious to ask for more $$$ for any additional work you have done, granted it is based in reality. Adding in some LEDs, changing out some rubbers, putting on a few little mods, and dragging a paper towel with novus across the playfield won't necessarily increase the value beyond normal market prices. You will and should though expect to be reimbursed for anything beyond that, because most likely it has never been done and someone will have to do it. It all depends on how much you value your time and whether or not you like working on machines. I'd imagine most people just wanna plug it in and play.

Isn't "market value" a sliding scale anyway based on condition, location, availability, cleanliness, and many other factors?

Are you saying that if you had two otherwise identical machines side-by-side, one is dirty and one is clean, you'd be happy with either for the same price?

Haha........good one.

Can you beg me to answer your moronic question?

Just to play nice OP, I would want my money back for what I spent on them. That would be tossed into my pricing.

OP: "shopped in the most basic sense" means different things to different people.

When I "shop" a game, everything comes off the tops and cleaned and polished. Everything is fixed that needs fixing. Rubber, flipper rebuilds, new targets, LEDS, etc. PF is buffed and waxed as well numerous times. I also will send the boards out for repairs if needed. THis isn't a day long process or even a week. It takes a lot of time and effort. AND headache.

Maybe "shopping a pin" to you means a quick spit shine and a waxing.

When I see "shopped" I think maintenance, not LEDs, mods, shakers, or the like. These can add value, maintenance does not. Lack of maintenance deducts value. I don't believe most associate improvements like , LEDs, color DMDs, shakers, and mods part of a shop job.

I think get it. Fair Market Value, as you are using it, means maximum price. If that's your meaning, then I'm starting to understand what you are saying. . .although kinda odd to think that way, IMHO.

But, you said that the fair market value for a dirty pin is less than the fair market value of a clean pin, so I guess I don't get it.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/request-definition-of-shopped

Board repairs? Working flippers? Decent Rubber? Working switches and targets? All stuff I expect to be on a working machine.

OK, so what game was it that you couldn't agree on price with the seller? I know it sounds generic, but it is usually a specific incident of not being able to agree on a price that prompts these types of topics.

I pretty much ignore the description of games. After all, when one person says "shopped" it may be what I consider to be an actual shop job, and when someone else says it, it means they wiped a dirty rag over the middle of the playfield.

You can't stop anyone from using descriptions they feel are correct. So all that matters is the condition of the game when I evaluate buying it or not.

No. The fair market value of a dirty pin is less than the fair market value of a clean pin. That's why I asked if what you mean by FMV = maximum price, regardless.

I think you have a bit of a warped sense of this hobby if you think someone is taking into account how long it would take to remove leds in terms of time, and then charging for it.

If you don't want leds in the pin I sell you, then remove them. I'm not doing it for you and I'm not charging you less bc you're a cry baby.

I will sell it to someone who wants leds and the pin.

I have a feeling you're what's referred to as a "tire-kicker".

It depends on the original condition of the machine as well and the age. It is unlikely you are going to find a game prior to the mid 90's in "unloved" condition, since almost all of them were on route to make money for ops. So if they haven't had things like all their coil sleeves replaced, parts removed, springs replaced, flippers rebuilt, polished, tumbled, pops rebuilt, board work, etc., then they're going to need it. They may still work, but not well. That seems to be the case with the majority of the games I've come across. So if someone took the time to do all of that, it deserves more than a game listed as "clean and working" in my eyes. And we routinely see games in that condition selling for more, so that seems to be the consensus.

I don't mind if someone uses the term "shopped" in their description if they are trying to sell a pin. I just don't put much stock in what someone will state. To a lot of sellers, shopped means burnt bulbs replaced along with a few rubber rings. I shop every machine that I buy, whether it was " shopped" or not. I like the thorough way I do my machines, not the way someone else does it when it was in their possesion. If I went to go and look at a machine that was immaculate and everything was done to perfection, I would not mind paying extra above fair market value considering the amount of time and effort that goes into a complete shop job. Plus, I would have the peace of mind in knowing that the machine was well maintained and not neglected. If the machine was not what I would consider shopped, I would offer the seller less than the asking price. I once was selling a machine and a potential buyer wanted me to shop it prior to the sale. Flipper rebuild, all new targets, LEDS, rubber, balls, star posts, decals, glass etc. All for no extra money. That was not going to happen. All those parts add up fast along with a lot of time to do the job the right way. It was a totally unreasonable request. I have in the past done that for a friend for free to help them get into the hobby. If someone went through all that trouble, I would compensate them. Plus I would have more time to play the machine instead of slaving away on it.

Can't you find something better than an ad hominem attack? (ps: google will help you here)

I would say pending the amount of thumb-downs you received on your thread, you aren't in the majority here.

I'd just go away rather quietly.

I recently bought my first pin that was actually shopped and clean. I don't have to tear down the playfield, don't have to put in LEDs, don't have to replace incorrect or broken plastics, posts, and screws, don't have remove hacks, don't have to rebuild flippers and pops, don't have to replace burnt connectors. Man, is it nice to have a shopped pin over a "clean and working" one that was given a Novus job. If there are already a few hundred dollars of new parts in a machine and hours of labor put into a game, that's worth a few hundred dollars to me.

People expect more for shopped pins because shopping a game usually involves several hours of labor and some amount of parts, especially on newer games.

Rubber rings aren't free. Replacement posts aren't free. Flipper rebuild parts aren't free. Most people wouldn't say their labor is free.

An average price is an average price; it's perfectly rational to expect a better than average example of a game would command an above average price. By contrast, a tired example of a game with old rubber, broken star posts, and weak flippers will generally sell under the average price.

Exactly.

I fight myself when I see a project pin. I love the satisfaction you get when you spend the time and energy to shop a pin the right way, and it turns out just beautifully. My GNR was found filthy at a bar, basically on life support. It looks amazing now. I basically saved it from impending death.

I agree. My BSD was a POS and I turned it into a beautiful machine. That was my proudest pinball accomplishment. But it was a lot of work. And it still is not good enough for me so I am going to redo some parts of it.

I find that once I shop a pin it's more difficult for me to sell it too.

We should have code names for the quality of clean up done prior to sale - i.e. "I just Choggarded the game" or "Machine has been Vid'ed" or "Full Shanetastic done last week" or something like that

fair market value is not a set price, a shopped pins fair market value is higher than an unshopped one.
seems the whole thread is a waste of server storage

Yeah, I'm in the middle of a STTNG "shop out" which is basically ending up like a restore job. I got it and it was one of the dirtiest machines I've ever seen. It's cleaning up nicely but taking forever. I would gladly have paid a few hundred more for one shopped and working already. This is my first project of this magnitude and I'm taking my time with it. I can only work about 4-5 hours at a time then my back starts killing me, plus it's time for some serious beer drinking!!!!! I swear I don't know how some people stand hunched over a pin all day long....