WOZ will be a great addition to anyone's collection. I own 13 of the newer sterns, oldest Sopranos , to the newest Hulk. I have WOZ hopefully arriving in the next few months. Within the last 2 weeks I played Hulk and WOZ , as they were beside each other. I enjoy every one of my 36 pins! When you see Hulk and WOZ side by side it's easy to start comparing . Visually, there is no comparison , WOZ is without question far superior. WOZ was a test game , with a far from complete code, but was equally as much fun as Hulk, with it's 95% complete code. I , like hope WOZ will be finished soon , and hopefully JJP will release a completely finished game. If this is accomplished , what a new standard it will set. Hulk arrived yesterday, great game, but already there is an update. XMENle , thankfully mine has not had the issues others have mentioned , but , it was incomplete. I don't understand why the haters seem so threatened by the soon to be released WOZ , it's just another pin, fun for some, not for others.

What he said plus 1

It is not that most reasonable people would think that Jack is taking too long considering the scope of the project, it is just there are two things I have rarely heard mentioned:
1. Scope Creep: Yes, it seems like this project has it in spades, and that will delay you until it is mothballed. Adding features, doing this and that that was not in the original plan... Sure it is neat but that is not what gets you to the finish line on time.

2. Unrealistic shipping/test dates. After the third or fourth big miss this should be obvious to anybody, but Jack has strung people along by keeping the finish line always within sight, but always several months out (perhaps unintentionally at times, perhaps intentionally at others to keep people from bailing).

I should have printed up a bunch of shirts that say "My WoZ is shipping in 2-3 months" to sell at pinball shows last year. They would have suprisingly stayed relevant until today, and for who knows how long into the future.

Scope creep: I think "mothballed" is a stretch. I agree they have delays, but they want to get this right the first time. These recent delays have to do with board sets, code and power supplies. I'm sure jack could have got this out earlier with the original board designs, but that could have meant different boards in future JJP pins. WOZ would have been an odd ball pin, for servicing. That would suck for owners. He did the right thing by waiting.
I've played a recent version of WOZ at my distributor. It is very close. Hardware looks 95% done, with a few things left to do. Code is not complete, that is very clear. Is it near the finish line. I think so. Would I want to wait till they got it right? Yes.
What is better, getting to the finish line earlier, or getting it right? My distributor has recent sterns up for play. The WOZ is played constantly. The Hulk avengers pin is beside it and gets played a lot as well. I went in yesterday and played Woz for about a dozen games. Solid with no issues. The techs haven't had to do anything to it. I also tried to play the avengers but it was broken (sling). The kick-out in front of Hulk is all but dead as well. I tried to play the x-men LE but wolverines left hand was broken and was jammed in the right outline with a ball. How many posts are there out there of owners of newer Stern pins modifying their pins to make them "work" or complaints about unfinished code in their games. It seems we have two pin manufacturers out there with two business models; Stern that has fairly fun games that get them out on time, but with unfinished code, and very questionable quality, (at least from a playfield perspective) and JJP. JJP seems ro have very good quality, is testing the heck out of them, so they get it right, and not delivering until code and mechanics are right. I come from a manufacturing world. The best selling products we have are the ones that worked well out of the box. The ones that did not, are the ones that we sent out unprepared for real world conditions.
From my world- JJP are doing it right, and I would rather wait, than have to live with the alternative. I just wish Stern would do the same thing, so we would all have games with complete code, and "work"....but I guess that is why JJP got started to begin with. With JJP starting to put out good games, maybe Stern will fix the quality and code issues, and we will have two good choices in front of us. Competition at work.

Couldn't have said it better myself Hitch9!

hitch9. you make great points. I hope stern picks up their game. I hope jjp makes a great game with great code. I'm just tired of one thing and that is the pro jjp kool aid slinging people on this site. even some of the moderators are responsible. check out the first response to the op. immediately a moderator jumped in and asked if we really needed to have the same old discussion again. talk about stifling free speech. if people want to come on here and vent then where is the problem. apparently the problem is ANYTHING that might even remotely be interpreted as negative towards jjp. I hope WOZ is great! if it is I'll own one. on the other hand getting people to pay for products before the first one is even built isn't the way I'll purchase. judging from the jim jones kool aid pushers I'm a very bad person.

I love how some people automatically assumes that JJP will have a better QC record than Stern. You will see once JJP finally gets all its games out to their customers that they will have many of the same issues Stern has. It's pinball and that's the way it goes. Stern has unquestionable customer service and JJP looks to have the same. Everything can be taken care of with great CS.

Pappy

I'm just sick of all of this and want my game.

This is the thing that gets me. If I had known at the beginning that my money would be held up for two years or more I would have asked for my money back. I know Jack is a nice guy but this and the whole Hobbit preorder issue, along with the personal attacks to GS, has me shaking my head.

Pappy

kool aid drinkers?

Many of the Kool Aid drinkers, me included, seem to have a dog in this fight right now with an active WOZ purchase. And they are comfortable with the decision. I wouldn't call them kool aiders, just realists. They understand this was a start up and have seen enough of that sort of thing to know that a start up's crystal ball (see what I did there?) doesn't always work right. And whether they like it or not, they are comfortable seeing it through.

Those that aren't comfortable pull out or don't jump in anyway. So what?

Pappy, quote all of the points about quality please. If you read my full statement I say it "SEEMS JJP has very good quality". The fact that the techs have not had to do anything with the Woz, but the avengers is broken, with about the same amount of play, may be a good indication. Time will tell however, as these WOZ pins get produced. I have to say however playing the WOZ, it just seems more solid. The manufacturer that does more testing and getting the code right, to produce a more fun but robust machine will be the winner, and will win my hard earned cash. I'm hoping both get it right. I agree that customer service will play a key part. I would prefer NOT having to call for a warranty replacement part however, as that means there is a design error, and it will probably break again. Then there is the hassle of putting in a service bulletin (if they chose to fix the design flaw). Shareholders would want to get produce out the door. Perhaps that is why Stern has all these issues, as the investors want to see returns, hence putting out a product that is not ready. Jack apparently doesn't have that pressure. Perhaps Gary Stern would prefer to put out a finished product, but can't because of investor pressure. That's all speculation however, which is garbage. At the end of the day, the best product will win my money.. 2013 should be an interesting year.

I don't remember any personal attacks on GS, just company/product jabs. I know there was a bad week when Stern had apparently threatened vendors JJP was using, in an attempt to set JJP back, and somewhere in there an attempt by Stern to rehire Keith after he had been with JJP while the preorders began heating up, and Jack got a little hot about some of those things. That's to be expected. But I still don't remember anything personal!

$500 to hold your place for Hobbit isn't the end of the world, but yes I agree it was premature.

Let's face it, the "jabs" are good for their respective businesses. It keeps folks like us interested and talking (which is all many CEO's care about Years ago, folks thought Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were enemies (as a result of the media propaganda). Both of them actually liked and (more importantly) respected each other. I would hope the same is true for Gary and Jack...Stern made Jack a lot of money "in the day"...

Are you sure about that?

The jabs are good for us, the customers, because it lets us see the real person shine through.

People are at their truest under fire

I didn't quote that part on purpose because I didn't want to get into another Stern quality versus JJP quality. We will discuss these matters when JJP actually produces something on a mass scale. Until then it's all hearsay.

I have ordered a WOZ and I have bought several NIB Sterns. When I get my WOZ I will compare.

Pappy

We'll also need to see how WoZ'es hold up on location. I recall how awesome Gorgar's were when they came out, making money like crazy, until the coil stops on the flippers started breaking like pretzels. Less than three weeks in the field. Just because a prototype built by engineers and technicians plays well at shows and select distributors; It does not indicate how a production unit will perform.

It was me that asked if we needed another thread on the topic, I did not stifle anyones free speech. People are free to say what they want but on a private moderated site everyone is held to a set of standards by the site owner. This is where he wants to keep the site as positive as possible. When someone starts calling the people trying to look at the situation with a positive glass half full view its is negative with name calling. That is what people are tired of hearing over and over.

Im like how people can say bad things about a game and it is OK but if we say something good we are kool aid drinkers. Wash rinse repeat.

WOZ has been at iplay for awhile now, and even at $1/ game it gets played steadily. Jack reported it made $87 and $88 last Fri and Sat, and has been functioning great. Performance looks good so far!

I tested a Gorgar and didn't have that problem.

And WOZ uses newer Williams coil stops. So it will take years and lots and lots of plays to break a coil stop or base plate.

LTG : )

Ah.....let WOZ speak for itself. Let's not compare it to X-Game or Y-Game.

I can start throwing up crap about Stern's on location too. It's not worth the argument.
The first time a rubber breaks on A WOZ on location everyone will be on here saying how bad the manufacturing is.

Bingo~

Ford & GM says all their cars work great but once in the field people find out pretty quickly.
Any manufacturers accolades should be taken with a grain of salt. Pinball included.

Its been a long time coming but hopefully they hit owners and the locations soon. Build quality is a good thing but it does not cover any engineering oversights that may be built in.

Once a machine gets some hours on it a lot of things get clearer quickly.

Not everyone, just certain people who for some reason want JJP to fail

It is hard to understand why anyone would want JJP to fail, except the competition. But as hard as that is to understand there are many who feel that way. Maybe it is a personal thing with Jack, maybe they think the value of there games will decrease when WOZ is out, who knows - who cares.

As a buyer of pinball I want as many companies as possible in the ring competing for my cash.

+1
And the competition should mean better pins from both.

You mentioned you tested one, I'm not sure if the production games had a new style of flipper base plate & coil stop or different coils than earlier games like Stellar Wars/Flash. Perhaps your test game still had mechs/coils as used on earlier games.

The route op I worked for bought five Gorgar's. They paid the purchase price off in less than six months at a 50-50 split. One was paid for even faster as it was placed in an arcade that was wholly owned. But those flipper mechs were a bear to keep working. I hated the all clear call in at 9:30 pm and then at 10-10:30 there would be a "Gorgar, flipper stuck or the dreaded "Game won't start" which translated to a burnt & melted coil usually attributed to a broken coil stop.

I saw his post about that. Not trying to put a negative spin on that but I can't help but think many of those plays are from people who have preordered or from curious pinheads. Who knows maybe it's the LCD that have the general public playing it. I guess we will know for sure if those numbers hold for a month or two. Sure would love to see people playing pins again.

Pappy

dont want to hijack this thread but how successful was Gorgar when it first came out?
thought video games were killing pinball machines in profit during the 80s

Important to remember that each month of no production is impacting on the cash flow of the business. I know Jack was dismissive of Stern for producing games with unfinished codes but there is a difference between a reasonable code like Avengers and an awful one like XM out of the box.

Would have thought he would be better off all round shipping WOZ with a good code and software updates can add width etc etc as the months go by.

I would expect there will be updates no matter what. With some of his previous games, Keith listened to members of RGP and added to the game rules of pins like LOTR after it was out. Keith did this on his own, outside of work hours, and it was not authorized by Stern. That is the quality of programmer we are dealing with here. I'm sure jack and Keith will do their best to get as complete rule set out the door, however.

Super popular game. I had over 40 of them on route.

Williams sold a ton of them because they EARNED!

Jack has said he would be fine with Kieth continuing to keep WOZ fresh by updating the code long after release. That's not the same as shipping stuff that just doesnt work. I'm looking forward to a fully functional ruleset upon release that will only get better over time.

+1 Exactly what I expect will be the case!!

Definitely.

I remember Gorgar being super-hot when it was released. I know it was my machine of choice during that time.

Cheating has been eliminted, Jack said so. Something to the effect of sensors in the game that know if the glass is on/off. **Chuckle**

...or was that something said to sell games that has been abandoned to get these out the door? I always thought it was silly anyway. Any non-cheat system can be bypassed easily enough.

I think something strange is happening to me. I've waited two years now for my WOZ and suddenly, I'm apprehensive about it coming here! I've waited for so long, I think it won't dawn on me that I actually have it in my presence when I see it sitting here. The wait has caused me to flatline! My excitement factor has died to the point I just think, "Oh well . . . I own a WOZ. Someday it will come. Meh . . . it's a nice game."

But DON'T misinterpret my deflation. I'm still glad Jack is taking his time and making it right. I just can't put into words how my 'anticipation' has 'dissipated'! Ha.

I'm feeling exactly the same way Pintucky.

The sad thing is Jack missed the bubble. It appears to me the market is getting a little saturated with NIB and we have finally hit the NIB price limit. Jack may very well have a hard time selling these games at what he is asking. I was thinking about buying one at $6500, but $7500 is simply out of the question for any game, never mind one with a WOZ theme.

This only makes sense, and I'm sure there are a lot of other WoZ buyers who feel the same way. It's pretty anti-climactic at this point.

I feel your apathy BUT once games start shipping and people are posting about the quality of the game, I think our excitement will rekindle. Especially with the deep rule set, many new and exciting secrets will be discovered over the coming months. Mike since you will be one of the first to receive a game a lot of people will be looking forward to your posts. Don't let us down, we expect your usual well articulated discourse.

I am currently phlegmatically waiting for ECWOZLE #100

That has been happening for 2 years now.

Goochmania2 Higgifit! Unboxing WOZ at the Rick Stetta Ranch in Breckenridge,Colorado.. Everyone is welcome! Free Keg of PBR! all tournament proceeds go to Adam Higgins who was injuried in a motorcycle crash after leaving Lyons Classic Pinball. Message me for more details!! I am super pumped on this game.. it's going to change pinball forever!!

Nobody has a completed game in their home now.

I believe once the game is in your home the long journey will be forgotten and the excitement of having something new and different will take over.

Prayers for Adam and hoping he comes out Ok.

The anticipation has definitely flatlined! I was anxiously awaiting it's arrival 1 year ago. Now I don't even think about it very often, due to the missed shipping dates. I am glad Jack didn't rush the machine into production, I just didn't expect this much of a delay.

Yes, I've got the same feeling; even the children have moved onto other things now.

The quality talk from the masses is not 2 years old, it only really started after people started seeing some if the individual components. Jack announced 2 years ago. You used to be one saying those things about who nice it was going to be.

I think that for me the excitement will build again as games start shipping. If that is end of February, that means Jack will have a completed game at the Texas Pinball Festival March 15-17. That will be my first chance to see in person or play any version of the game. That should pump me up until mine is delivered in June or July. So, a little lull right now helps keep me sane. Just looking forward to TPF even more than usual this year!

No, the "quality talk" has been going on for more that two years.

"It's going to use Williams parts, so it won't feel like you are bouncing balls around in a cardboard box..."

I always laugh about the "Williams quality" because all the old ops remember that Williams quality was never good.

The quote I was referencing was in response to the quality talk only.

The above was the quote that received the following:

I was not questioning the parts used, just the quality talk that was in the thread.