Dear pindude80
great, You decided to work on your Shangri La again - to me it is the best 2-Inch Pin.
You have two problems: Problem-A) Player-One always plays his first Ball (NO STEP UP -> BALL-2 -> BALL-3 … / NO STEP FURTHER, NO STEP UP -> PLAYER-2 -> PLAYER-3 -> PLAYER-4).
Problem-B) Your Shangri La is converted from "Replay-Mode" to "Extraball-Mode". By now, I don't want to work on Problem-B) (we get to it later) - I want to work on Problem-A).
http://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php -> Add-A-Ball, http://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#N -> Novelty Play, http://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#R -> Replay, http://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#F -> Free Play, AND not yet written in ipdb: Extraball-Mode (No Replays by Counters, No Replays by Special, No Replays by Number-Match - Only, seldom You are rewarded with an Extraball) -> read text dealing with the different Modes (Problem-B, some conversions can be made).
pindude-80, Post-Number-101, (pic-101), You have encircled the REPLAY-UNIT (-> Problem-B), only YOUR "Information-for-the-Player-how-many-Replays-are-given"-white-Wheel is missing, do You see http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=989&picno=53312 , in the middle, below the bell -> see 37, 36 … , the Counter-Wheel attached to the Replay-Unit ?
Problem-A): On Your pic-102 I see a jack (plugged in) with wires -> at the end of these wires is YOUR (valuable) Extra-Ball-Relay. On your pic-103 I see the Jumper-Jack, needed to play in "Replay-Mode". The pic-103 shows the view the player is seeing: Top->Down on the Left are : L1, L2, L3, L4. On the Right are R1, R2, R3, R4, this is the Jumper-Jack.
L1-R1 are connected. L2-R2-are connected. For Replay-Mode L3, R3, L4, R4 are not needed and therefore are not used. L2-R2 (Replay-Mode) is used to reward you with Replays. L1-R1 is always used for Ball-count-up / Players-step-further-up. In Replay-Mode L1-R1 is always used (therefore always connected) - in Extraball-Mode mostly: There is a connection L1 -> Wire -> Switch-on-the-Extraball-Relay -> Wire -> R1. And if You make the Extraball (in Extraball-Mode): The Extraball-Relais pulls and therefore opens its Switch -> opens the connection "L1-R1" to "L1- -R1". IF L1-R1 IS NOT CONNECTED -> THE PIN CAN NEVER COUNT UP BALL / PLAYER !
pindude-80, pull Your Extraball-Jack and store that Jack away (safe, insulated, not making connections / problems). Do not insert the Jumper-Jack (I don't want - by now - to deal with Extraball / Replay stuff). Simply connect (wire with Gator-Clamps) L1-R1. Thats all.
What have we done (L1-R1) ? Take your schema or here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=989&picno=53312 scroll down to 2 MB PDF Schematic -> on page-2, about in the middle, the thick black line, named YELLOW: Just above the thin line upwards -> Outhole-Relays -> Wire-R-O -> EXTRABALL-JACK-GOODIE -> Wire-R-W -> Ball Index Relays -> to the Left -> Score-Motor-C-1-A -> upwards Wire-Blu-B -> through the Coin-Unit -> to the Right -> Wire-R-W -> upwards -> through the BALL COUNT STEP UP RELAIS -> to Wire-BLACK. With the Gator-Clamps You have set the EXTRABALL-JACK-GOODIE TO "ALWAYS-CONNECTED" (as drawn on the right).
From YELLOW -> -> -> Ball Count Step Up Relais -> BLACK must current flow (at the End of Ball-1) - and the Ball-Count Step Up Unit must mechanically step (up) to Ball-2. Somewhere in here (YELLOW -> BLACK / mech. step up) is Your Problem-A) !
You have eliminated "Possible-Fault-on-Extraball-Jack" (L1-R1 is connected with wire with gator-clamps). In this writing I want to eliminate ONE more "Possible-Fault-on-?" - further work in further posts-104, -105, -106 …
I assume a fault on / with "Ball Index Relais": The N.O.-Normally-Open-Contact on the Ball Index Relay must be closed at the End of Ball-1. Therefore the Ball Index Relay must be pulling. (L1-R1 connected, start a game -> with your Hand make some points on the playfield (1 Point / 10 Points / 100 Points) -> is the Ball Index Relay constantly pulling ? It is the fifth Relay behind the transformer, it has only two N.O.-Switches. At the end of Ball-1 the Relay must be pulling and these switches must be closed (and cleen) -> Look at it, polish the contacts, make sure both switches are then closed.

Of course, the fault might be some other place, so please write about the results. Greetings from Switzerland, Rolf

P.S.: A little appetizer on Problem-B: Start a new game -> carefully connect R3-L4 (R3!),(L4!). Do you see the lighted text on the backglass "Same Player Shoots Again" ? Is the orange light between/below the flipper bats on - informing "You have made an Extraball" ? Of course, these are just information lights (no Extraball-Action behind) -> carefully disconnect R3-L4.

Hi Pindude80, just started to read this thread. Can you tell me if the OP problems still exist, the one it does not always count balls correctly?

Dear pindude80
Sorry, I made a mistake in my Post-103, about in the middle of my text -> "What have we done (L1-R1) ? Take your schema or here…" -> the link in the Post-103 IS WRONG. -> USE http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2110 , scroll down to 2MB PDF Schematic -> on Page-2 -> the following text is correct (description on where we are / what we are doing).

Yes pindude80, (Post-104): Pull Your Jack, store it secure away and ONLY connect the two yellow circled terminals in Post-102. Explanation: In the 2MB PDF Schematic, in the middle of Page-2, just above the word -YELLOW- a thin line going upwards through Outhole Relay -> Wire R-O (red wire with some orange stripes) -> through the EXTRABALL-JACK-GOODIE -> Wire R-W (red wire with some white stripes) -> to a N.O.-Normally-Open-Switch on the Ball-Index-Relay. (This N.O.-Switch must be closed at the end of Ball-1.) Do You want to check Wire-R-O and Wire-R-W ? Look at the socket of the Jumper-Jack: Wire-R-O is soldered on L1, Wire-R-W is soldered on R1. Pulling Your jack and connecting L1-R1 is on the schema: Replacing the dashed-line-Extra-Ball-Re.-N.C.-Normally-Closed-switch-drawing -> replacing the dashed-line drawing with the regular- /notdashed- line drawing (see just right of the words "Ex. Ball Jack").

Maybe we are lucky - the fault on Problem-A) is/was ? : The N.C-switch on the Extraball-Re. is not closed at the end of Ball-1. To test this: Pull the Jack, connect L1-R1, start a game -> make some points on the playfield -> let the ball leave the playfield -> (machine does reset) -> and SHOULD give You Ball-2. Please try this and report. Maybe we are lucky (end of Problem-A), maybe we are not lucky and must proceed looking. The next step (looking) would be checking the Ball-Index-Relay. Greetings, Rolf
P.S. What I want to do is to check one after the other "possible-place-of fault" - From YELLOW -> -> -> Ball Count Step Up Relais -> BLACK: Current must flow (at the End of Ball-1) - and the Ball-Count Step Up Unit must mechanically step (up) to Ball-2. Somewhere in here (YELLOW -> BLACK / mech. step up) is Your Problem-A) !
Now, we are looking at L1-R1 -> next step: we look at the N.O.-Switch-on-Ball-Index-Re. -> next step: we look at the N.O.-Switch-on-Outhole-Re. -> next step: we look at the N.O.-Switch-on-Score-Motor-C-1-A. -> next step: we look at the Coin-Unit. -> next step: we look at the Ball-Count-Step-Up-Coil and the mech. movement of the Ball-Count-Step-Up-Unit.

Cool, when the ball drains watch the ball number on the back board. If it flashes off then on back to the same number or counts backwards, we need to clean the pawl drive arm. This is a common problems with machine that sit around for long periods of time.
Lets us all know what happens.

Dear pindude80
great, you have solved the "Reset-Problem" and the "Ball-count-up-Unit" is working. Do you want to check your "Extraball-Goodie" ? (Your machine is in "Extra-Ball-Mode" (no replays given, only an Extraball once in a while)). Hit targets Red-1, Red-2, Red-3 -> the "Sum-Light-Red" above the left flipper bat should be lightet, the gate should open and the lower, middle bumper should be lightet and change from 10 to 100 points. Hit targets White-1, W-2, W-3 -> the "Sum-Light-White" in the middle, above the flipper bats should be lightet. Hit targets Blue-1, B-2, B-3 -> the "Sum-Light-Blue" above the right flipper bat should be lightet, the "Invitation-Light: Star Target score Special when Lit" below the Center-Target-Unit should be lightet. Now hit (several times) the Center-Target(s). After beeing hit, it will change Red-1 -> White-1 -> Blue-1 -> STAR-Target -> Red-1 -> White-1 etc. . When You hit (everything is lightet) the STAR-Target: Now the lights in the Backbox "Same Player Shoot Again" and the orange light between / below the flipper bats (Extraball) should be lightet. --> YOU HAVE MADE AN EXTRABALL. Now, let the ball drain -> Reset will be done -> the SAME ball will be given into the Launching Lane, the lights "Same Player Shoot Again / Extraball" still lighted (NO Ball-Count-Up). You launch that ball -> it enters the playfield through the entrance door (way up) -> NOW the lights "Same Player Shoot Again / Extraball" must turn off -> for the machine You are NOW playing just an ordinary ball. (When "Same Player / Extraball" are on - and You shoot the ball through the open gate into the launching lane -> launch the ball -> these lights (Extraball) MUST STAY LIGHTET.)
There are several places, where a fault can be - try out and report if you have problems.
Please look at Your Extraball-Relais and report the connections. I would like to finish my PDF (see Post-99) and make my donation of the manual to IPDB.ORG. So far I am sure L1 and R1 (Jack) are connected with wires A and B (Extraball Relay). I am sure R3 and L4 are connected with wires C and D. I believe L3 is connected with wire G. I assume, R4 is connected to wire E. I do not know, if L2 or R2 is connected with wire F.
Dear pindude80 look at the jack and the Extraball Relay and report the connections (L1 through R4) <-> wires A through G: Whitch Jack-Pin is connected to whitch wire ? Yours sincerely Rolf
P.S. The main work the Extraball Relay is doing is: "To open the connection Wire-A--Wire-B" (Schema 9-C, above "YELLOW", the dashed Normally Closed Contact on dashed Extraball-Relay) -> no current can flow to Ball count up- / Player step up-Units.

Dear pindude80
I doubt, you make an Extraball 5 to 10 % on played Balls. I believe, You have an fault that occurs 5 to 10 %. In my Post-110 I described a real Extraball (Hitting Red-1, -2, -3, White-1, -2, -3, Blue-1, -2, -3 -> then hitting the STAR TARGET in the center (Center Target) -> the text is lighted in the backglass "Same Player Shoot Again" and the orange Light between the flippers is lightet: This is a real Extraball = No Ball count up / no Player count up / further. Everything else is an occasional fault.
Please write, if Your machine plays 5 balls per play - or 3 balls per play (it is adjustable). When testing, please start always one game = a single player plays his 5 or 3 balls and then his play ends. Reason: It is easier to deal / write only about "Ball count step up Unit" instead of "Ball … up Unit/ Player step up Unit" - if ... and … or … but if … or …
First Your Shangri La must work (reliable) "1 Player in Extraball-Mode" - after that we check (1),2,3,4 Players and afterwards we look at the Problem-B (changing from Extraball-Mode (back) to Replay-Mode).
Please follow my instruction in Post-106 (starting "Yes pindude80 (Post-104): Pull Your Jack …" till end of post-106.
Here again: I want to eliminate a possible fault in the Extraball-Relay: Pull the Jack and connect L1 and R1 -> test the function -> maybe we must look further (Ball Index Relay, Motor Switch) ?
To understand the Gator-Clamp-Connection L1-R1: Follow L1 -> Wire to the Relay -> connected to Wire-A or to Wire-B. Follow R1-> Wire to the Relay -> connected to Wire-B or to Wire-A. And there is a N.C.-Switch (Normally-Closed Switch) on the Relay, between Wire-A and Wire-B --- and with the Gator-Clamp-Connection L1-R1: WE TEST IF THIS N.C.-SWITCH IS THE (ONLY?) FAULT IN THE CONNECTION "YELLOW -> -> BALL COUNT STEP UP RELAY -> BLACK".
If this switch is (faulty) open -> there never will be "Ball-count up" - if we use the gator-connection-L1-R1 and the Ball-count-up ALWAYS works => the fault was / is in this switch.
But maybe we must look further (Ball Index Relay, Motor Switch) - please report on L1-R1. Greetings, Rolf

Waking this thread up from the dead.

I’ve had a problem with this game. Ball drains and as the score motor spins when it normally would pop the ball out it would “misfire” so to say. The ball count would advance but no ball and when the motor would spin again it would fire the ball out. Basically making you lose a ball.

Now in addition to that, the ball will drain and fire out a new ball but the ball count doesn’t advance like what this whole thread was about.

It’s driving me crazy I have cleaned with flex stone, business cards, alcohol and q-tip, made tiny adjustments, significant adjustments to the switches. I cant figure out what the deal is.

At this point I have cleaned and adjusted every single switch in the stacks of the score motor, every switch associated with the outhole relay, player reset relay, ball index relay, game over relay, and the switches on the ball count unit. Also the switches for the outhole and ball index.

What am I missing? Any thoughts?

61EFFDDA-D333-48C2-B98A-4FA4686F9588 (resized).jpeg

CC506299-CF86-4E88-8028-364467EBE7A7 (resized).jpeg

At this point I wish I could just go through and replace every switch. It’s a shame no one makes replacements. At least that I’m aware of. I feel like it has to be the contacts. If these things are 0.0000001 of a millimeter out of adjustment things won’t work.

everything is working with the jumper test. Thanks for the suggestion. I’m going to tackle the score motor tomorrow. I feel like it has to be in the stacks somewhere.

You’re right I wasn’t doing it right. Clipped the wire to the yellow on the transformer then clipped the other end to this. Which basically wasn’t doing anything because I luckily didn’t start a game. I was just poking around on switches and the coil pulled in.

I did this once before with that lug on this game to get the match unit to fire the credit knocker.

I guess in my mind I just related this as a way to get all switches to fire when you touch them. I’m an idiot.

1C8A386B-2195-478D-8FE7-F9CB84CE8963 (resized).jpeg

Ok it “seems” to be back to normal.
Since I’m not good with schematics I usually just go the shot gun approach and clean or replace everything associated.
Since cleaning is really the only option here we already know I cleaned all relay switches with no improvement. Also I noticed that when I was testing game play the switch that would be 100 or 300 when lit was not paying 300.
So I went to the score motor.
I tried my best to mark the switches that brought life back to the game.
Red gave me the ball advance back and game over.
Yellow is making it so that the ball trough kicks out every drain (so far)
And green gave me the 300 points back.

I used the flex stone but instead of just pinching and pulling I clean the contacts in a small circular motion clockwise for 30 seconds then counter clockwise for another 30 seconds.
Id much rather spend the time desoldering the old switches and replacing with new.

Tested 10 games with no misses.

I really hope this fixed it...
CD3A5D29-BDFF-43AB-AAF0-1D9B4E45F46A (resized).jpegF8587DBF-A26E-404A-AE08-3451AEF8DB91 (resized).jpeg