(Topic ID: 15064)

Shadow - Underpriced for the quality of game?


By Cobray

7 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 89 posts
  • 40 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by iceman44
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 7 years ago

Just curious why TS has remained steady at around $2K for a nice one while every other game has increased 20%-100% in the last 6 months?

I was recently reading a "price check" thread and someone had mentioned, "oh, don't pay more than $2.2K for a really nice one". LOL. To me, that seems like an amazing bargain.

And the really cheap pins, such as fish tales and a lot of the Data East games that were about $1K are now $1700+. Not trying to get into an argument as to whether those games are worth it or not, but relative to TS, TS kills them as far as gameplay IMO.

For me, I have a minty TS, and I don't see it rolling out my door (if I could ever let it go) for less than $3K, especially given what I would have to pony up for another pin at current prices.

For those getting into pinball, I think TS is one of the best values, period, and it's not going to be much longer before people realize it.

Anyone else think TS is undervalued right now? Or is the back glass THAT bad? LOL.

#2 7 years ago

Hugely undervalued relative to other pins.

Superb game and look at the quality of the ramps etc......no plastic ramps anywhere! This would be a 6k pin if made today.

#3 7 years ago

It has gone up a lot. They're easily $3000 for a nice one around here. And it's undervalued at that.

#4 7 years ago

Ive owned it and sold it quick. I loved the control of the ramps but it just didnt click in a home setting for me, will try it again someday.
2k for a nice one is a good price. To me something about it feels clunky ...add in the mini pf (could have been much better).

Speaking of undervalued..RS.
Lots packed in it and still can be had under 2k.

#5 7 years ago

I think because it is a polarizing game. You either love it or hate it.

I personally didn't see the greatness about this game. To me, it just doesn't flow.

So if you're like me, and like flowing type games, then this isn't for you.

I have my TZ so I do know what a skill type game is, just dont think TS is on the same level as that one.

Oh, and I can't stand the looping background music!

Just my lil ole opinion...

#6 7 years ago

I've never owned it but had a chance to play several games on one.i think it's a good game with alot going on but it got old pretty quick for me. i do like the upper playfield.

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Hugely undervalued relative to other pins.
Superb game and look at the quality of the ramps etc......no plastic ramps anywhere! This would be a 6k pin if made today.

What he said. Absolutely incredible game. I suspect the price will go up eventually. In my part of the woods, they don't come up often for this very reason and when they do, they sell FAST.

The game is awesome. I love being able to control the ramps and the wizard mode is fantastic. Just a really fantastic game. Some don't like the translite, but I like the Art Deco period and the backglass and playfield have those elements. I like the overall look, but I think I'm in the minority.

I would only sell mine if a nicer example came up and it would have to have a mint playfield. Mine is super nice. I actually took two games and took the best from each to make my keeper.

Cheers,
Duane

#8 7 years ago

I picked up a very nice example with very little sanctum wear for $2400 this past January. I have a love/hate relationship with it. I love it when I am hitting all the ramps and shots but hate it when I hit either one of the targets in front of the left ramp which often means SDTM It's a very challenging game and damn Bowen for making those loop combos look so easy in his strategy video on PAPA. It will be staying in my collector for a little bit as Duane said they don't come up very often and every local collector I know that has one has no plans to rotate it out anytime soon.

#9 7 years ago

Shadow is a top game and i agree totally with Cobray. I have 11 games and like them all . I have owned Shadow the longest and played all the top 50. The Shadow is a top 10 game in terms of flow and overall play. The modes are all challenging as the whole game is. I have logged over 700 games. Most people do'nt like it because of the theme or it kicks their butt. It is every bit as good as TZ with " better flow for half the dough". Games are sometimes not valued for gameplay. (TOM) This is my opinion .

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from Rick471:

I personally didn't see the greatness about this game. To me, it just doesn't flow.

It has flow..............if you hit the diverters

#11 7 years ago

Shadow seems to be a perennial sleeper, so I would agree that it is undervalued compared to other pins.

I bought mine for $1,100 probably 10-12 years ago on the endorsements of so many on RGP never having played or seen it in person. For the time it was made, the Sanctum lock was an unusual use of a playfield magnet, to propel the ball up into the lock. I like the mini playfield feature. The diverters are a bit clunky, but they give the player a lot of options as to how to set up the next shot, so for me they add to the flow of the game. You have an inner and an outer loop and two saucer shots, one off the inner loop. I think it recognizes up to either a five or seven way combo, suggesting the designers had flow in mind. It has one of the best video modes I have seen. It has six modes that mix up the shots well, and has four multiballs including the wizard mode, but I don't think that there is any stackability. Getting to the wizard mode is pretty straightforward and of moderate difficulty, and the wizard mode is very hard to accomplish, you need to shoot well and strategize your shoots to accomplish it. I think the sound and especially the animations are excellent. It has no pop bumpers, which isn't noticeable during play, another feature I think is unique. Seeing the movie helps get the game. which I really didn't until I saw the movie.

It is a challenging pin with a lot to do but not deep to the point of being a chore to play. I have both LOTR and TSPP for when I am in that mood.

It has a horrific backglass, and it is too dark to play in the dark at least for me, which is why I made a lighting kit for mine. The flippers have a different feel than other B/W games, which to this day I cannot figure out why.

It is a keeper for me, for it offers a lot. Mine is in excellent condition (9++ on both pf and cab), and if I were to sell it, I would price it around $3,500-$4,000, so IMO you are on track with pricing it. Mine is not a players pin, not restored, but for sure CQ (whatever that means anymore).

Dan

#12 7 years ago

3000!!! Sounds good to me as mine is currently for trade If you live close to me, lets make a deal.

I love the game, but I have VERY limited space, and I want something new and fresh, so Shadow is on the chopping block...

#13 7 years ago

I don't see how TS can be considered underpriced in today's market. A year ago it seemed like a nice model was going for $1800-$2000.

#14 7 years ago

Yeah it was my 1st pin, I bought it because it was the best bang for buck. The translight and cabinet wasnt eye candy though. years later traded it +cash for a wh20.

#15 7 years ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

I don't see how TS can be considered underpriced in today's market. A year ago it seemed like a nice model was going for $1800-$2000.

Dewey:

I have been back into pinball only for 5 months after a haitus of about 7 years, so I am not up to date on everything, but is Shadow going for more than the range you mention now? I had the impression that what your range is pretty current. Not so?

Dan

#16 7 years ago
Quoted from Cobray:

Just curious why TS has remained steady at around $2K for a nice one while every other game has increased 20%-100% in the last 6 months?
I was recently reading a "price check" thread and someone had mentioned, "oh, don't pay more than $2.2K for a really nice one". LOL. To me, that seems like an amazing bargain.
And the really cheap pins, such as Fish Tales and a lot of the Data East games that were about $1K are now $1700+. Not trying to get into an argument as to whether those games are worth it or not, but relative to TS, TS kills them as far as gameplay IMO.
For me, I have a minty TS, and I don't see it rolling out my door (if I could ever let it go) for less than $3K, especially given what I would have to pony up for another pin at current prices.
For those getting into pinball, I think TS is one of the best values, period, and it's not going to be much longer before people realize it.
Anyone else think TS is undervalued right now? Or is the back glass THAT bad? LOL.

It is because the game is difficult and the theme is bad. Lots of people don't want to play a difficult game. Fish Tales, for instance, is easy and straightforward and a theme that most can relate to in fishing. If a casual pinball player could pick between Fish Tales and Shadow at the same price, they are going to pick Fish Tales. The more hardcore players are going to pick Shadow for the opposite reason. Problem is, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore players. I just picked up a beautiful Shadow for $1,750 and I couldn't be happier. I love a deep challenging game and you just don't see those nowadays, even at triple the price. A fully working, excellent condition Shadow is well above a $2,000 game for the right people.

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from MrWizzo:

Dewey:

I have been back into pinball only for 5 months after a haitus of about 7 years, so I am not up to date on everything, but is Shadow going for more than the range you mention now?

Well, after re-reading the posts, I'm an idiot (ask my wife, she'll back me up). Owners above are saying they wouldn't take less than $3k for theirs, so they are saying they think it is undervalued. Reading is a skill I lack. It's one of the handful of pins that seem to be gaining quickly in price, maybe not as much as others, but I'd throw it in with BSD, RBION as getting a lot of talk and consequently their asking price on the market are going up.

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from HOOKED:

Speaking of undervalued..RS.

Totally off topic......but I completely agree!

#19 7 years ago

It's the backglass. If it WASN'T Alec Baldwin, and just some other dude then I don't think people would have issue with it. You find this with a lot of theme games unfortunately. Same reason WCS is priced low. Great pin, great flow and cool toys yet that darn cartoon dog just doesn't do it for most people. If they would've put the referee chick that's on the playfield with her ass cheek hanging out on the backglass, it'd be a 3K pin all day. Just my .02.

#20 7 years ago

I just keep liking The Shadow more and more. Still haven't finished the final battle, but I put a new GC score up yesterday of 1.9 billion.

IMO, it's the best pin under 2K, period.

#21 7 years ago

SHHHHHH.... I havent got one yet so please stop driving the HYPE machine on this one untill I can take the drivers seat after landing one CHEAP
THANKS

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from Sarge:

SHHHHHH.... I havent got one yet so please stop driving the HYPE machine on this one untill I can take the drivers seat after landing one CHEAP
THANKS

Oh, THE SHADOW! Yeah, that game sucks. I thought we were discussing a different game, carry on.

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from LesManley:

It is because the game is difficult and the theme is bad. Lots of people don't want to play a difficult game. Fish Tales, for instance, is easy and straightforward and a theme that most can relate to in fishing. If a casual pinball player could pick between Fish Tales and Shadow at the same price, they are going to pick Fish Tales. The more hardcore players are going to pick Shadow for the opposite reason. Problem is, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore players. I just picked up a beautiful Shadow for $1,750 and I couldn't be happier. I love a deep challenging game and you just don't see those nowadays, even at triple the price. A fully working, excellent condition Shadow is well above a $2,000 game for the right people

Great post! The comparison with FT is spot on IMO. Congrats on the good price on a great pin.

Quoted from Dewey68:

Well, after re-reading the posts, I'm an idiot (ask my wife, she'll back me up). Owners above are saying they wouldn't take less than $3k for theirs, so they are saying they think it is undervalued.

Wives aren't always right; they are just never wrong!
I think an owner saying a game is undervalued is synonymous with saying the game is a good buy.

Quoted from jk2171:

It's the backglass. If it WASN'T Alec Baldwin, and just some other dude then I don't think people would have issue with it. You find this with a lot of theme games unfortunately. Same reason WCS is priced low. Great pin, great flow and cool toys yet that darn cartoon dog just doesn't do it for most people.

I didn't mind the dog on WCS. it was good to have something light-hearted. I think it is also a sleeper. Great pin. One I regret not keeping.

Totally agree on the TS BG. I have looked at some of the alternates, but none of those did it for me either.

Dan

#24 7 years ago
Quoted from Sarge:

SHHHHHH.... I havent got one yet so please stop driving the HYPE machine on this one untill I can take the drivers seat after landing one CHEAP
THANKS

+1

#25 7 years ago
Quoted from Sarge:

SHHHHHH.... I havent got one yet so please stop driving the HYPE machine on this one untill I can take the drivers seat after landing one CHEAP

too late. pretty much every pinhead i know that doesn't already have one, wants one. It's been that way for at least a year.

as far as $3K being the going rate, i think that's a tad high. I think $2500 is the ceiling where 99% of the people looking for one wouldn't even try negotiating. I could be VERY wrong.

It has a $hit ton of flow if you can hit the shots.

#26 7 years ago
Quoted from Rick471:

I think because it is a polarizing game. You either love it or hate it.
I personally didn't see the greatness about this game. To me, it just doesn't flow.
So if you're like me, and like flowing type games, then this isn't for you.
I have my TZ so I do know what a skill type game is, just dont think TS is on the same level as that one.

+1

I'd take a FT over TS for sure.

#27 7 years ago
Quoted from LesManley:

It is because the game is difficult and the theme is bad. Lots of people don't want to play a difficult game. Fish Tales, for instance, is easy and straightforward and a theme that most can relate to in fishing. If a casual pinball player could pick between Fish Tales and Shadow at the same price, they are going to pick Fish Tales. The more hardcore players are going to pick Shadow for the opposite reason. Problem is, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore players.

Yes.

Two things to add though -- The Shadow doesn't have pops, a HUGE turn off to casual people who are interested in pinball who think they need to be on every machine, and the ramp diverter stuff is just confusing until you have done it for a while.

I think that NBAFB is a very new player friendly game for the most part, but every time they hit the scoop and then don't know what to do as the game is going, "LOOK UP!! SHOOT THE BALL UP THERE!!" it reminds me that even simple stuff can be really confusing for people that don't play regularly. Shadow with the extra buttons is even more confusing.

The fact it commands the prices that it does is honestly a testament to the gameplay. JD, another great player in my opinion with similar issues (no pops, but I'd argue a slightly better theme) is worth a lot less...

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I'd take a FT over TS for sure.

-1

Well there sparky you might but I surely wouldn't. You ain't the law in my book!

Just havin fun with ya.

Shadow rocks - better get while the gettins good!

#29 7 years ago

I purchased a nice one that needed to be shopped and new parts for $1700 and I can't wait to get it finished.

I have 2 new diverter ramps, new dmd, Mike Chestnut re-plated wire forms and am buffing out the playfield.

I have only played it a few times at CP Pinball and hope the hype is true. I watched the cheesy movie and kinda liked it for being so lame. After watching the movie I like the backglass better too

#30 7 years ago

SHADOW is a great game, I love the flow, SFX, VO calls and the rules are great. One of my most played games in my collection. This game deserves the price and the love

#31 7 years ago
Quoted from davewtf:

It has a $hit ton of flow if you can hit the shots.

Hey all,

This is what I was going to say. If you remember playing this game once or twice in an arcade or a buddy's basement, the things you're going to remember are a) the diverters slow the game down, and b) it's a clunk-fest. And that's 100 percent true. But that's not giving the game a chance. It's like trying Scotch once; all you catch is the booze, and you're missing the point altogether.

I bought one after I'd played maybe two or three balls on it; first time I'd ever played it. Machines are hard to come by here, and I'd been eyeing a WhiteWater this fellow had for quite some time. He said he'd move on price on his Shadow if I bought it instead. And yeah, right off the bat, it is BRUTAL. If you try to do the skill shot from the right flipper up the left ramp, and you hit the side of the ramp? It's like finding out your best friend slept with your Mom. It's the biggest slap in the face ever.

However, also true is that the game flows. Anyone who's spent a good deal of time with the game, specifically long enough to feel comfortable with the diverters, will tell you that setting up the skill shot is great (and yes, this is going to take some technical pinball geek-ery to make any sense):

1) Start the game.
2) Set both diverters to feed the left sides of their respective ramps (and therefore the left inlane).
3) Plunge the ball.
4) Hit the left ramp. Diverter runs the ball to the left lane.
5) Hit the right ramp from the left flipper. Diverter runs the ball to the left inlane; while this is happening, redirect both diverters to feed the right inlanes.
6) Ball rolls down the left inlane. Hit the right ramp again; this time, it will feed the right inlane.
7) Shoot the left ramp, the ball redirects to the right inlane one more time.

Seven steps; four flips of the flipper; HUGE amount of flow and satisfaction; not too easy to do. If you're good, you can then shoot the left orbit from the right flipper, then shoot the upper loop with the upper right flipper for a six-way combo. I can't recall off the top of my head, but there might be some way to roll together a seven-way combo; I think it might be in the Pinball 101 DVD?

Long story short: if you say the game is a clunk-fest, you're right. And for first time players, it'll put you off the game in a hurry. But if you get to the point where you can make the shots, it's so much fun. I have two DMD games, WhiteWater and The Shadow, and no contest, the WhiteWater would be out the door long before The Shadow ever leaves.

Luke

#32 7 years ago

The same guy created MM and AFM. If the backglass was different it would be top 5.

If MM can get 10k and AFM is now 6,7,8K Shadow should be an easy 4-5k.

Not worth arguing over it. You either dig Brian Eddy games or not. All his games have very similar flow and shots.

BTW today is his birthday.

#33 7 years ago

I agree. So often someone sees 1 pin sell for a certain price then assumes that's what the market is. I'm sure someone somewhere bought a $3K shadow, but that's not the going rate.

Quoted from davewtf:

as far as $3K being the going rate, i think that's a tad high. I think $2500 is the ceiling where 99% of the people looking for one wouldn't even try negotiating.

#34 7 years ago
Quoted from davewtf:

Sarge said:SHHHHHH.... I havent got one yet so please stop driving the HYPE machine on this one untill I can take the drivers seat after landing one CHEAP
too late. pretty much every pinhead i know that doesn't already have one, wants one. It's been that way for at least a year.
as far as $3K being the going rate, i think that's a tad high. I think $2500 is the ceiling where 99% of the people looking for one wouldn't even try negotiating. I could be VERY wrong.
It has a $hit ton of flow if you can hit the shots.

I paid above 2500 for mine, but it's beautiful, no sanctum wear, only thing missing is one of the 3 mongols, and was from a dealer so there's a premium built in. But based on what it's listed for when one actually comes up for sale, I feel satisfied with the purchase. I'm loving the game, even though it kicks my ass 8 games out of 10. Of course, I actually love the theme on it (I think the movie is highly underrated), so I know I'm in the minority there.

#35 7 years ago

I saw one in perfect condition go for $2500.

#36 7 years ago

Here is a video tutorial by Bowen showing the scoring difference in shooting for Battlefield vs Vengeance vs Loops.

http://vimeo.com/26732989

Loops FTW

#37 7 years ago

I sold mine 2 weeks ago for $1500 and it was in really nice shape

#38 7 years ago
Quoted from Rick471:

I sold mine 2 weeks ago for $1500 and it was in really nice shape

That's crazy low for a nice condition machine... I wish I would have known, would have bought it and flipped it and made $500.

#39 7 years ago
Quoted from Cobray:

Rick471 said:I sold mine 2 weeks ago for $1500 and it was in really nice shape
That's crazy low for a nice condition machine... I wish I would have known, would have bought it and flipped it and made $500.

Thats what the guy who bought it said. But I only had it for about a month and sold it for what I paid for it.

#40 7 years ago

If it weren't for the mini playfield, this would be my favorite game.

Even the 2500 i mentioned is probably highly objectionable for 90% of the people looking for one. I think $2K is probably where most people start thinking you're getting greedy unless the game is well above average. I would be comfortable paying that any day of the week, however.

#41 7 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Superb game and look at the quality of the ramps etc......no plastic ramps anywhere! This would be a 6k pin if made today.

There are no plastic ramps but the mini playfield drops the ball onto some plastics. That is my biggest gripe with TS.

#42 7 years ago
Quoted from Slate:

The same guy created MM and AFM. If the backglass was different it would be top 5.

Gotta strongly disagree with you there.

Seriously, you are basically calling the majority of pinheads shallow idiots because they can't see beyond the backglass, as though putting a "cool" backglass on the pin would make all the difference in how people feel about it. Doesn't make much sense to me.

#43 7 years ago
Quoted from Slate:

You either dig Brian Eddy games or not. All his games have very similar flow and shots.

I dig AFM 1 & 2(MM). I do not dig JM or TS. That's 50/50.

#44 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Slate said:The same guy created MM and AFM. If the backglass was different it would be top 5.
Gotta strongly disagree with you there.
Seriously, you are basically calling the majority of pinheads shallow idiots because they can't see beyond the backglass, as though putting a "cool" backglass on the pin would make all the difference in how people feel about it. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Not talking about the pinheads. Every pin collector knows the translite killed some of the value which translates to overall value of the pin. Same thing if MM had Alec Baldwin on the translite with a hammer and chest plate you can be sure it would not be what it is today.

Players play the game with no translite, colelctors and the public demand are judged based on other things like Alex Baldwin on the translite.

Would you buy MM or AFM in Bin Laden was on the translite?

#45 7 years ago
Quoted from Slate:

Would you buy MM or AFM in Bin Laden was on the translite?

Of course. Wait, his murdered corpse or living in a cave era bin laden?

#46 7 years ago
Quoted from Rick471:

I think because it is a polarizing game. You either love it or hate it.
I personally didn't see the greatness about this game. To me, it just doesn't flow.
So if you're like me, and like flowing type games, then this isn't for you.
I have my TZ so I do know what a skill type game is, just dont think TS is on the same level as that one.
Oh, and I can't stand the looping background music!
Just my lil ole opinion...

It has amazing flow. Two ramps that flow as well as two orbits and an upper flipper shot. How can you say it has no flow?

#47 7 years ago
Quoted from Slate:

Same thing if MM had Alec Baldwin on the translite with a hammer and chest plate you can be sure it would not be what it is today.

I'd pay more for that

#48 7 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Slate said:
Would you buy MM or AFM in Bin Laden was on the translite?

Of course. Wait, his murdered corpse or living in a cave era bin laden?

lol

#49 7 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Rick471 said:I think because it is a polarizing game. You either love it or hate it.
I personally didn't see the greatness about this game. To me, it just doesn't flow.
So if you're like me, and like flowing type games, then this isn't for you.
I have my TZ so I do know what a skill type game is, just dont think TS is on the same level as that one.
Oh, and I can't stand the looping background music!
Just my lil ole opinion...
It has amazing flow. Two ramps that flow as well as two orbits and an upper flipper shot. How can you say it has no flow?

What has more flow your TS or, your TOM or JM?

I dont even put TS in the medium flow category. jmo.

#50 7 years ago

I'd say that shadow has as much flow as JM. If the game is properly calibrated so holding the upper flipper goes to khan mode start, then it really feels highly flowing and fast.

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