(Topic ID: 180688)

Selling a game and not disclosing its been on location?


By TheWizard00

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 54 posts
  • 31 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by vdojaq
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 2 years ago

    New member here, long time lurker. Trying to get ready to buy my first machine. Over the past couple of months i have seen some games come up for sale in my area, titles i have been interested in, with the owner selling them and not disclosing they have been on location for the past several months. I know they have been location due to playing these exact machines. It appears the owner is buying them new and routing them for 6 months then selling them off before any "permanent" damage is being done to the machines, only at a slight discount over buying new, or even a home use only machine. I have contemplated buying one of them, but i feel like if they are hiding that, what else are they hiding. Is this something that is common and maybe something i just need to get over?

    29
    #2 2 years ago

    It doesn't matter where it's been. It all comes down to condition.

    Learn. Know what you are looking at.

    LTG : )

    #3 2 years ago

    condition is king

    #4 2 years ago

    I assume all machines have been on location unless the person selling bought it new.

    Like Lloyd said condition is what matters. You'll have to learn what to look for or take a friend that is knowledgeable. If the seller didn't mention something and you didn't spot it, you have only yourself to blame.

    #5 2 years ago

    Lloyd is right. If the games are maintained and look good there shouldn't be any problems with them. Plus you don't have to pay for shipping.

    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheWizard00:

    Is this something that is common and maybe something i just need to get over?

    Well you can't even get agreement going onthis subject as seen in this thread today.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bad-seller-alert-gorf

    There's nothing wrong with buying a machine that's been in a bar or whatever. 99% of all machines owned by us were.
    The price for brand new games do not drop that much in value in 6 months to a year.

    #7 2 years ago

    If you've been playing them on location then you're probably in the best possible position to say what may or may not be wrong with these games. Usually you're lucky to get in two or three games before having to make a decision.

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheWizard00:

    owner selling them and not disclosing they have been on location for the past several months. It appears the owner is buying them new and routing them for 6 months then selling them off before any "permanent" damage is being done to the machines, only at a slight discount over buying new, or even a home use only machine. I have contemplated buying one of them, but i feel like if they are hiding that, what else are they hiding.

    It doesn't matter if it's been on location or not, condition is king. If you're asking if they've been on location and the owner is lying to you then you're dealing with a liar and should walk away.

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Well you can't even get agreement going onthis subject as seen in this thread today.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bad-seller-alert-gorf
    There's nothing wrong with buying a machine that's been in a bar or whatever. 99% of all machines owned by us were.
    The price for brand new games do not drop that much in value in 6 months to a year.

    Thanks for the link i hadnt seen that post. I guess its more commonly happening then i thought it was.

    Thanks for all the opinions so far guys!

    #10 2 years ago

    I just bought an EBD that has been on location for 5 years, maybe more before that. I paid top dollar because the location owner keeps the machines in top notch shape and gave it once last review before I picked it up. Couldn't be happier with the purchase.

    Don't only play the machine you want to buy at that location. Play all of them. If they are dirty, have several things not working correctly, etc, it is very likely the machine you buy from that location will have similar issues. If all the machines play great, feel confident in buying from them.

    Good luck! Welcome to an awesome hobby!!

    #11 2 years ago

    There's nothing wrong with buying something in player's condition either. Just make sure it's a price your comfortable with.

    I bought my Stars without knowing it didn't have boards. I bought my BSD without seeing the planking playfield or the red marker cab. Mistakes can be made but hopefully next time you'll do better.

    Many of the games at the local arcade are missing paint but still play great.

    #12 2 years ago

    Just ask the right questions first & be comfortable with your purchase.

    #13 2 years ago

    a 6 month/1 year old game is going to be reliable (unlike, say, any of my 30 year old games, which need board work and lots of other things to keep them playing well). Assume you're going to rebuild the flippers, and do a thorough shop job on the game shortly after you get it home. It should be cleaned, replace the rubber with silicone or poly bands, swap out bulbs for LEDs. It's a little weird that the seller isn't letting on that they were routed, but whatever. They are, ostensibly, made to endure much more wear than what home use will ever demand of them. If it looks nice and plays decently and is a year or two old, just put in solid maintenance and it'll be a good investment.

    #14 2 years ago

    Hey fellas that's how machine operators make money. Buy new, put it on location, make some money then sell it to buy more machines. Again and again and again.

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from sethbenjamin:

    replace the rubber with silicone or poly bands, swap out bulbs for LEDs

    Most of what you suggested was good advice but these are debatable and unnecessary. I like Titans but you can stick with rubber if you want and I have yet to put one LED in.

    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Well you can't even get agreement going onthis subject as seen in this thread today.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bad-seller-alert-gorf
    There's nothing wrong with buying a machine that's been in a bar or whatever. 99% of all machines owned by us were.
    The price for brand new games do not drop that much in value in 6 months to a year.

    I hear what you're saying, though I think there's a big difference between the two situation.

    In the other thread, Gorf actually SAID that T3 was HUO and "perfect."

    The seller referenced in this thread is selling games off route. If I'm understanding correctly, the OP of this thread is working under the *assumption* that a pin would be HUO unless told otherwise. With the vast majority of pins, the default assumption should be routed unless specified otherwise.

    #17 2 years ago

    Always assume a piece of commercial equipment was used for it's intended use unless you are told otherwise. In that case it's still the condition that matters over anything.

    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from Collin:

    I hear what you're saying, though I think there's a big difference between the two situation.

    Agreed 100% I just mean you can't even get members to agree on all this stuff. Half the people in that thread are saying they expect HUO only machines to be in much better condition than routed ones. Whilst I would certain(t)ly assume that myself, I'm not going to expect it and going to do my work to look into it.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    Most of what you suggested was good advice but these are debatable and unnecessary. I like Titans but you can stick with rubber if you want and I have yet to put one LED in.

    All a matter of opinion. But if you're gonna do a nice shop job (advisable), that would be the time to replace rubber (probably needs new ones). While shopping the game, if someone wants to go LED, that's also a good time. Wizard is new to this stuff and may not know about things like alternatives to standard issue rubber, or LED replacement. I didn't when I started and would have welcomed the info. Up to the individual owner how much of that kind of stuff they opt to do.

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    expect HUO only machines to be in much better condition than routed ones.

    Years back on RGP there was a true HUO Williams Indiana Jones. Sat next to an indoor pool it's whole life. Chlorine fumes did a real number on that machine. But who cares, it was HUO.

    LTG : )

    #21 2 years ago

    Having been on route is the default. People will mention if it hasn't. They only seem to mention "routed" if they just pulled it off route and it's all dirty and needs some work. Has the seller shopped them prior to selling them?

    #22 2 years ago

    I'm sure there are people on here that can direct you, but if I recall, there are a number of "buying first pinball" threads that I'm sure can help with a lot of general questions, should you have them. Just search a little; unless someone knows a good one off hand?

    This place is a wonderful community overall, with many people happy to help, so always feel free to ask for opinions/help.

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheWizard00:

    New member here, long time lurker. Trying to get ready to buy my first machine. Over the past couple of months i have seen some games come up for sale in my area, titles i have been interested in, with the owner selling them and not disclosing they have been on location for the past several months. I know they have been location due to playing these exact machines. It appears the owner is buying them new and routing them for 6 months then selling them off before any "permanent" damage is being done to the machines, only at a slight discount over buying new, or even a home use only machine. I have contemplated buying one of them, but i feel like if they are hiding that, what else are they hiding. Is this something that is common and maybe something i just need to get over?

    If the games for sale are not advertised as HUO then assume they are routed. Can't hurt to offer less then what they are asking if you think they are priced to high. I see nothing being done wrong by this operator listing games for sale. I don't believe you have to say attention these games have been on route. Now if the Operater is claiming they are HUO and you know they are not that is a different issue and you now have deceitful advertising.

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from Collin:

    I hear what you're saying, though I think there's a big difference between the two situation.
    In the other thread, Gorf actually SAID that T3 was HUO and "perfect."
    The seller referenced in this thread is selling games off route. If I'm understanding correctly, the OP of this thread is working under the *assumption* that a pin would be HUO unless told otherwise. With the vast majority of pins, the default assumption should be routed unless specified otherwise.

    Has GORF been banned from Pinside?

    #25 2 years ago

    I have had a respectable member of the community buy a game from me that was not HUO and then represent the game as HUO and list it for 1k than I sold it to him for. The game was in really nice shape but was no way home use only. I think this kind of stuff goes on all the time.

    #26 2 years ago
    Quoted from jorge5240:

    I have had a respectable member of the community buy a game from me that was not HUO and then represent the game as HUO and list it for 1k than I sold it to him for. The game was in really nice shape but was no way home use only. I think this kind of stuff goes on all the time.

    It is a shame when people are dishonest like this...respected or not if I would know of this I would call out the member at least privately to him or her. Not cool at all. I would like to say karma will right the wrong but all to often it seems that good people have bad things that happen to them aand bad people get away and benefit from behaviors such as these.

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheWizard00:

    New member here, long time lurker. Trying to get ready to buy my first machine. Over the past couple of months i have seen some games come up for sale in my area, titles i have been interested in, with the owner selling them and not disclosing they have been on location for the past several months. I know they have been location due to playing these exact machines. It appears the owner is buying them new and routing them for 6 months then selling them off before any "permanent" damage is being done to the machines, only at a slight discount over buying new, or even a home use only machine. I have contemplated buying one of them, but i feel like if they are hiding that, what else are they hiding. Is this something that is common and maybe something i just need to get over?

    It sounds dishonest if they are representing the games as something that they are not. I would shop elsewhere if I was you. You should expect to pay significantly less than a NIB price, if the game has been routed for 6 months.

    Also, you probably know this but I would avoid shipping a pin on your first few purchases. Inspect the first few games that you buy in person so that you know exactly what you are buying.

    Also, be aware that you can't trust how many plays are on a game by the audits. You will have to inspect the game for visual clues.

    #28 2 years ago
    Quoted from jorge5240:

    I have had a respectable member of the community buy a game from me that was not HUO and then represent the game as HUO and list it for 1k than I sold it to him for. The game was in really nice shape but was no way home use only. I think this kind of stuff goes on all the time.

    This is down right wrong... he should be called out.

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mike_J:

    Has GORF been banned from Pinside?

    I don't want to side track this thread, but it looks like Gorf was permanently kicked out of forums then voluntarily closed his profile himself...I sure hope he doesn't wind up trying to open up a new profile to hide who he is to others....

    This is the type of thing to watch when buying "HUO" etc. It's not that the machine tgis person got was total junk, but it appears to have been misrepresented and not in the condition stated.

    I still stand by most people on here are good, honest, helpful people...

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from pacmanretro:

    This is the type of thing to watch when buying "HUO" etc. It's not that the machine tgis person got was total junk, but it appears to have been misrepresented and not in the condition stated.
    I still stand by most people on here are good, honest, helpful people...

    I agree. Most people on Pinside can help with referrals. Just like the majority of sellers, if I list something for sale as HUO, I know that to be true because I was the person that bought it NIB. I have actually started to take pics of me opening a game to document it as well as the serial numbers. Probably over the top but these days, it's probably a good idea.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from Collin:

    I hear what you're saying, though I think there's a big difference between the two situation.
    In the other thread, Gorf actually SAID that T3 was HUO and "perfect."
    The seller referenced in this thread is selling games off route. If I'm understanding correctly, the OP of this thread is working under the *assumption* that a pin would be HUO unless told otherwise. With the vast majority of pins, the default assumption should be routed unless specified otherwise.

    Agreed. Best to assume not HUO unless told otherwise.

    #32 2 years ago

    If advertised as HUo then they must provide a bill of sale or verifiable proof that is HUO. Anything less and I assume its a routed game.

    #33 2 years ago

    Why don't you ask him if these games are on location, see what he says. If he hides the info, call his bluff. Say to him I'm playing one right now. Should tell you a lot about the person selling these machines.

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from JBK:

    If advertised as HUo then they must provide a bill of sale or verifiable proof that is HUO. Anything less and I assume its a routed game.

    See, that's just not accurate. I have pictures of me removing my NIB games. Bill of sale is easy to fake. Condition is the only decisive way to judge such a thing. A seasoned collector will be able to tell if a game that is advertised as HUO, could in fact be HUO.

    If pics are verifiable proof, I do agree with you.

    However, I would never use a bill of sale as the ONLY factor in determination the HUO accuracy of a game. I've sold HUO games with a bill of sale and it's nice to have but I really don't think it adds much $, over condition.

    It has to be a COMBINATION of things really. Reputation of the seller, bill of sale, pictures, scratches, shooter lane, current software installed, flipper mechs worn out, coin drop evidence, hand wear around buttons, New York lock-bars, how does it play, ect. ALL of those considered TOGETHER will give you the only evaluation that you should really need.

    The more telling sign to me of a game being truly HUO is determining how many times it has been moved, typically indicated by careless scratches left by vending employees moving the equipment OR, by loose leg bolt plates and stripped plates where the bolts go in. Another big one that I often see overlooked is how much dust and dirt is in the bottom of the cabinet. The longer it has sat in the upright position and played, the more metallic dust and grime will be present. HUO games will typically be played much less.

    Do we really need a Pinside guide to determine HUO? I figured it was mostly common sense.

    Sometimes, nothing you observe will tip you off. I once shopped out a HUO LOTR for sale. It was played hundreds of times per week for a long time, in a house where 6-8 people lived. It had a lot of plays on it and there was some wear on the PF.

    Likewise, for a routed game that had 15,000 plays on it with a mint cabinet... what if you swap in a NOS play field that Stern sent you when you bought the game, and bought a new coin door for it? THAT would certainly fool the vast majority of potential HUO buyers so, you really just need to use some common sense when shopping for such a game.

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    See, that's just not accurate. I have pictures of me removing my NIB games. Bill of sale is easy to fake.

    What the hell is a bill of sale?

    #36 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    What the hell is a bill of sale?

    Exactly.

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheWizard00:

    New member here, long time lurker. Trying to get ready to buy my first machine. Over the past couple of months i have seen some games come up for sale in my area, titles i have been interested in, with the owner selling them and not disclosing they have been on location for the past several months. I know they have been location due to playing these exact machines. It appears the owner is buying them new and routing them for 6 months then selling them off before any "permanent" damage is being done to the machines, only at a slight discount over buying new, or even a home use only machine. I have contemplated buying one of them, but i feel like if they are hiding that, what else are they hiding. Is this something that is common and maybe something i just need to get over?

    as others have said, condition is what matters.

    Is the guy advertising routed games as HUO? If so then steer clear.
    If he is just stating the condition and price then why does it matter? Until the past few years and resurgance of pinball/ new collector hobby... 99% of all games are or were on route for a period of time. Heck, many of them have been on rides over the Atlantic and back.

    These are commerical machines and are intended for route.

    I also woudl not judge something as negative just because it was on route. I route games and ocassionally sell them. In every case the new owner has stated they were amazed at hos well maintained the games were and that "they play better than the NIB I got 2 months ago" in more than 1 case. A good operator is often a collector and hobbyist that cares a ton about the games, maintains them, and often tweaks them to make them play even better.

    I can tell you from experience that every game which goes out on route will shake out some bugs over time. As I correct those bugs, the game becomes more and more solid and plays better. Simply cleaning your games and preventative maintainence means they are often great condition and better then the way some people maintain their HUO games.

    #38 2 years ago
    Quoted from JBK:

    If advertised as HUo then they must provide a bill of sale or verifiable proof that is HUO. Anything less and I assume its a routed game.

    Operators get receipts too when they buy NIB. A receipt proves nothing other than chain of ownership.

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    as others have said, condition is what matters.
    Is the guy advertising routed games as HUO? If so then steer clear.

    While they arent coming right out and saying HUO, they are implying as such, at least to me anyway. Saying things like "only has a couple hundred of plays", the game has been in a location since at least September, so i would imagine it has much more then a couple hundred plays over the time. It also says it has the latestupdated code, its my understanding from reading that when you update code it clears out the number of plays on the machine? is that correct?

    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheWizard00:

    While they arent coming right out and saying HUO, they are implying as such, at least to me anyway. Saying things like "only has a couple hundred of plays", the game has been in a location since at least September, so i would imagine it has much more then a couple hundred plays over the time. It also says it has the latestupdated code, its my understanding from reading that when you update code it clears out the number of plays on the machine? is that correct?

    Not for the Spike games. They keep a lifetime earnings counter that's harder to erase than just updating the code. But older machines, yes, that erases earning totals.

    #41 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheWizard00:

    its my understanding from reading that when you update code it clears out the number of plays on the machine? is that correct?

    It can be altered a few ways and people commonly use this tactic when selling a machine.
    This goes hand in hand with "Hey look at my 1996 machine that's HUO, just 400 plays on it wow!"

    Quoted from vireland:

    Not for the Spike games.

    Is that true? Pretty sure it erased my games played count on my GB when I updated?

    #42 2 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    It doesn't matter where it's been. It all comes down to condition.
    Learn. Know what you are looking at.
    LTG : )

    Totally agree. I help an op here in town keep his pins up and move through existing pins to make room for new ones on his route. I never advertise them as HUO as the ones you're talking about do, but some people have weird ideas about what a location pin condition can be. I keep his pins IMMACULATE - waxed every two weeks like clockwork and tech reports checked at least weekly for problems, and if it's reporting one, it's immediately fixed. The last pin I sold for him, the guy that got it kept saying it looked like it just came out of the box (which is an exaggeration if you know what to look for), but it did look EXTREMELY nice, and he got a great deal.

    Condition is indeed king.

    #43 2 years ago

    I have bought 50 year old machines and the owners did not disclose where they had spent any of their lives.

    The nerve of those guys!

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    It can be altered a few ways and people commonly use this tactic when selling a machine.
    This goes hand in hand with "Hey look at my 1996 machine that's HUO, just 400 plays on it wow!"

    Is that true? Pretty sure it erased my games played count on my GB when I updated?

    If you erased lifetime earnings, something went wrong. It's a running amount that cannot be easily erased.

    #45 2 years ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    If you erased lifetime earnings, something went wrong. It's a running amount that cannot be easily erased.

    Earnings the same as games played data?

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Earnings the same as games played data?

    I don't think so. Pretty sure it only keeps the lifetime earnings on spike.

    #47 2 years ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    I don't think so. Pretty sure it only keeps the lifetime earnings on spike.

    Cool thanks. This is something that can trick buyers as well then. He could just show him the games played after being wiped and he wouldn;t know any better...hell I didn't.

    #48 2 years ago

    most games that are older than 2007 have been on location. I've seen some HUO games that looked rough as shit. I've seen some routed games that look like brand new. All depends on who had them and how much activity they have received. So it really doesn't matter.

    Best advice. Don't buy anything you cannot go and see and pick up in person. Ever.

    #49 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Cool thanks. This is something that can trick buyers as well then. He could just show him the games played after being wiped and he wouldn;t know any better...hell I didn't.

    Just checked and it puts a "LIFETIME xxxxx" under the plays and the earnings (also the coin chute counters) on spike. So hard to get around it unless you know the secret handshake to erase the lifetime number.

    -1
    #50 2 years ago

    We buy games designed to be used on location, then people complain when sellers do not explicitly tell them its been used for its intended person.

    Yep, hobby is losing it.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 495.00
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    MI Pinball Refinery
    $ 369.00
    Cabinet - Decals
    Mircoplayfields
    $ 79.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 200.00
    Lighting - Led
    PinballBulbs
    From: $ 99.99
    Cabinet - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 799.00
    Flipper Parts
    Mircoplayfields
    $ 20.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Flashinstinct
    $ 7,599.00
    Pinball Machine
    Operation Pinball
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 90.00
    Lighting - Under Cabinet
    Rock Custom Pinball
    € 59.80
    Lighting - Backbox
    Freddys Pinball Paradise
    From: $ 23.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 29.99
    Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 12.95
    From: $ 11.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 24.75
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 55.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    Pinball Photos
    $ 6.00
    Electronics
    German-Pinball-Modular
    $ 12.99
    Cabinet - Decals
    Bent Mods
    $ 49.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 99.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside