(Topic ID: 259485)

Segasa Casino Royale Coin Unit Problem


By Jimkounter

11 days ago



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  • 14 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 days ago by extraballingtmc
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0Casino-Royale-Work-01 (resized).jpg
Little Chief Coin unit (resized).jpg

#1 11 days ago

Good afternoon fellow pinball aficionados. I'm completely new to pinball ownership and have dived in at the deep end by purchasing an EM machine. The game is a Segasa Casino Royale and apart from dodgy lamp holders is in fairly good working condition. However, the game is stuck on single player mode. I can manually cycle the Williams coin unit and then it happily plays multiplayer games with the player unit cycling properly. The issue is that the coin unit cycling coil isn't firing when hitting the player start button. Each time you press the player start it resets the coin unit. I have confirmed that the coin cycle coil works by jumping the supply to it. I'm assuming it's an issue with one of the relays but I'm drawing a blank. I'd not expect it to fire the coin reset each time I press the player start button.
The coin step up circuit is on section 5E of the schematic and looks like it's triggered from the reset relay. Wouldn't that reset everything each time though? Section 3C has the credit switch triggering the replay relay and to the left of it the reset relay via IND-A, a cam on the index wheel of the score motor. Am I correct in thinking that the reset relay is triggered on the initial press of the credit button but then isn't triggered by subsequent presses until the index cam closes the connection again?

Searching this forum I came across a similar issue someone had with a Captain Fantastic and it was the Ball Count switch that was closed when it should have been normally open. Where could I find this? Is it part of the Game Over relay

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Added 9 days ago:

Problem now solved! Solution below.

#2 11 days ago

Welcome to the club and thank you for doing a little research ahead of time.

I suspect that most of us will have the disadvantage of not having a Casino Royale schematic available (unless you can provide one here or on ipdb.org) but here is a similar circuit from Williams Little Chief from a few months before:
Little Chief Coin unit (resized).jpg

Quoted from Jimkounter:

Each time you press the player start it resets the coin unit.

The way this circuit works is that when you drop a coin or press the Replay button, the Coin relay activates which closes the leftmost switch above. The Coin relay also starts the Score Motor which turns through one complete cycle. At some point in that cycle the 1B switch on the Score Motor (2nd from the left) closes briefly which sends a pulse from left to right through the schematic above. That pulse will go to either the Coin Unit Step Up solenoid or the Coin Unit Reset solenoid based on the position of the Make/Break switch on the Reset relay in the red box. When it's working properly the Make/Break switch should only let the pulse get to the Coin Unit Reset Solenoid when the Reset relay is active (when starting a new game), otherwise the pulse should default to going to the Coin Unit Step Up solenoid (when adding another player).

You could verify that the pulse is getting generated properly by watching the Total Play Meter which should advance each time you press the Replay button or drop a coin. If that's working properly it's likely that either the Make/Break switch isn't adjusted properly, or that the Reset relay is firing each time you add a player.

Your schematic may differ from this one but perhaps it's similar enough that you can draw some clues from it.

/Mark

#3 11 days ago

Hi Jimkounter, MarkG
see the JPG. Greetings Rolf

0Casino-Royale-Work-01 (resized).jpg
#4 11 days ago

Thanks Mark and Rolf, I was just about to post a screenshot of the schematic.

I'll check the make/break relay first. As it's resetting on each credit button press it seems like the best place to start. Where am I likely to find the Player Unit and Ball Count units switches? Are these within a relay? Thanks in advance.

#5 11 days ago

So, the total play meter isn't cycling but the multimeter confirms it's getting a pulse. I'm beginning to wonder about the score motor. The index wheel has some different coloured wires to the schematic and I can see that some wires are linked between different switches on the motor. I'm wondering if it's been rewired at some point, possibly incorrectly...

#6 11 days ago

I'd stick with the Reset relay Make/Break switch for the moment. The fact that you're getting a pulse verifies that two of the three switches in the circuit are working correctly.

#7 11 days ago

Thanks Mark. I've discovered that the labelling of the wires and the new of the relays in the manual is different to the actual machine! Oh, the joys of EM machines. What I think is the reset relay doesn't seem to be getting any power when pressing the credit button, leading me to think the Game Over relay switches that power this relay need looking at. I'll tinker this evening and report on progress. Thanks for the help chaps, it's really appreciated.

#8 10 days ago

What I know so far...the reset relay switches seem to be working correctly. The make break switch between the coin unit step up and the coin reset are clean and adjusted ok. I can confirm the relay is transmitting the pulse from the score motor. The relay resets in full every time the replay button is pressed. The schematic marked up by Rolf suggests that the issue may therefore lie at the game over relay which should be normally open. If this is closed then it's going to perform a full reset every time the credit button is pressed.

#9 9 days ago

TL/DR: Ball count zero switch was closed when it should have been open.

The long version for anyone in a similar predicament who finds this in a Google search:

With everyone's help on here I've finally solved the problem. For future reference let me go through the issue and the steps I took to check everything.

The game plays fine on single player and scores and counts the balls etc perfectly. Pressing the credit button to add another player simply reset the whole machine.

I started at the coin unit which should add players and then worked my way backwards.

Going through the manual and schematic I can see that the coin unit adds players through the coin step up solonoid. I manually activated the linkage and confirmed it added players. Then I checked the coil itself. I checked the resistance across the lugs of the coil using a multimeter confirming the coil was good. To ensure it wasn't the sleeve that was binding I jumped the supply from the 6v transformer to the power lug on the coil and it fired. So, I know he mechanism of the coin unit and the coils are good.

Next, do the same thing for the player unit in the backbox. Again, manually advancing the unit correctly selected the next player. No need to check these coils etc because I confirmed it correctly set to the next player when playing a game so I know this works fine.

Whenever I press the credit button I get a full reset with power going to the coin unit reset.

Time to check the reset relay. I confirmed that all the contacts were in the correct position and that the contacts supplying power to the coin unit step up were clean.

So now I know the reset relay is functioning correctly, however it's being activated every time the credit button is pressed. This is activated by the game over relay so time to check that. This relay is a latch / trip relay. What this means is that the first credit powers the relay which latches on. To reset this relay a separate trip coil is activated which unlatches it.

I checked the position of the switches and cleaned contacts and confirmed that it's correctly latching when adding the first credit. The issue is that subsequent credits are activating the trip, resetting it. Upon the reset of the game over relay it activated the reset relay, which routed power to the coin reset. Aha! Here is the issue. The game over relay shouldn't be fully reset with each additional credit. Something is activating the trip.

The schematic and the manual show that if the player unit zero switch or the ball count zero switch are closed then it will route the power pulse to the game over relay.

Using a long wooden kebab stick I held open the ball count zero switch and pressed the credit button and hey presto, additional players are added!

So, simple adjustment to ensure the zero switch is open and problem solved.

Thank for all the help, it's greatly appreciated.

#10 8 days ago

Fun game! Glad to see another owner out there for this rare game. Especially getting another machine up and running

#11 8 days ago

Hi Jimkounter +
the reason for the BALL-Count-Unit-Zero-Position-Switch (open in Zero-Position, closed in Pos-1,2,3,4) in the wiring to the Game-Over-TRIP-Coil is: In the Arcade-times a player started a game - he played the first ball - a lousy ball - he only made a couple of points, he played the second ball - a lousy ball - he only made a couple of points - he then said "don't want to play the remaining balls - I start a new game" - so he pressed the Start-Button and the pin starts a NEW game - does reset and kickout ball-1 in this new game. Ball-Count-Unit has stepped in the first game from Pos-Zero (Ball-1) to Pos-1 (Ball-2) --- so through the Ball-Count-Unit-Zero-Position-Switch the Game-Over-Relay has tripped.

The reason for the PLAYER-Unit-Zero-Position-Switch (open in Zero-Position, closed in Pos-1,2,3) in the wiring to the Game-Over-TRIP-Coil is: In the Arcade-times 4 players wanted to play - they started a game - the first player played the first ball - a lousy ball - he only made a couple of points, then the second player played the first ball ball - a lousy ball - he only made a couple of points - then they said "we do not want to play the remaining balls - we start a new game" so they pressed the Start-Button ... In this situation the BALL-Count-Unit was still in Zero-Position (Ball-1 shall be played on all participating players) BUT the PLAYER-Unit has stepped from Pos-Zero (Player-1) to Pos-1 (Player-2) --- so through the PLAYER-Unit-Zero-Position-Switch the Game-Over-Relay has tripped.

In the wiring to the Game-Over-TRIP-Coil is another switch - "Switch on LOCK-Relay" - it can happen*** that somebody toggles off the main power switch before the pin did step on the PLAYER-Unit (to next player) / BALL-Count-Unit(to next ball). Toggling-off the main power switch - then toggling on again --- A NEW Game shall be started - NOT resuming in the old game.

When I work on the problem "This pin does not start - does not step through the whole Start-up- / Reset-Procedures": I always toggle-off - then toggle-on again as the pin shall do a start of a new game - it can happen*** "me toggling-off the main power switch". Greetings Rolf

#12 4 days ago
Quoted from Gundam_Pilot_:

Fun game! Glad to see another owner out there for this rare game. Especially getting another machine up and running

I don't have any other pins to compare it to but I'm loving it so far. My children also think it's amazing and we have very competitive three player games. Removing the knackered mylar from the playfield, giving it a wax and adjusting the bumper switches has made all the difference and it's relatively fast now. Tomorrow's job is replacing loads of the lamp holders so we have an idea of what bonus we're on and the value on the spinner. After that I've got.tonwprknon the cabinet itself. It's dodgy chipboard (particle board) and is in a right state.

How do you feel the game compares to other EM pins in terms of gameplay?

#13 2 days ago
Quoted from Jimkounter:

I don't have any other pins to compare it to but I'm loving it so far. My children also think it's amazing and we have very competitive three player games. Removing the knackered mylar from the playfield, giving it a wax and adjusting the bumper switches has made all the difference and it's relatively fast now. Tomorrow's job is replacing loads of the lamp holders so we have an idea of what bonus we're on and the value on the spinner. After that I've got.tonwprknon the cabinet itself. It's dodgy chipboard (particle board) and is in a right state.
How do you feel the game compares to other EM pins in terms of gameplay?

I think the game is great. I have used in a few tournaments and it plays well. It makes it tricky for players because nobody knows how to play it, and watching people try to figure out how to score the best pretty interesting. The changing wheel at the center for awards is cool, and certainly not guaranteed for trying to shoot for the award saucer in the center. I have my "Pot" turned all the way up so it changes as fast as it can. really makes it a hard time. i think it has a great layout and it plays fast and smooth. A cool game for sure.

#14 2 days ago

Very cool game. Love the segasa and sonics, wish more were in North America.

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