(Topic ID: 283217)

Sega vs. Bally/Williams

By Gallatinfly

1 year ago


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  • 33 posts
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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by woody76
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    #1 1 year ago

    Hello All,

    I’m seeking input from the Pinside community. I currently own 5 Bally/Williams pins and I’m looking to add another game to my collection. My wife and I are considering adding a Sega. I’ve searched through past posts and have seen a bunch of threads favorable to sega and data East games, but what I’m really hoping to learn about is build quality. Specifically, information on overall quality, electronics, cabinets, etc. I’ve read they feel different from Bally/Williams games but are they significantly inferior or just different? Are there common issues which plague them?

    #2 1 year ago

    Flippers definitely feel cheap compared to Bally/Williams. DE games tend to have a hum in the speakers. But I'm not aware of any integrity issues that need fixed all the time. I don't care for most of the games but you do get a lot of bang for your dollar. I have a DE Simpsons that I have had for about 8 years and don't remember it breaking down. But it does have the typical speaker hum and cheap feeling flippers.

    #3 1 year ago

    I find that Data East and early Sega games are pretty solid, but later Sega games have a different “feel.” I’m not sure how to explain it, but Segas from around ‘97 on seem a bit flimsy to me (so do the earliest Sterns, for that matter) and the gameplay is more shallow.

    #4 1 year ago

    Look at my collection. Lots of B/W and baywatch and batman forever. I think the large dmd era sega games are built very well. All play the same as my other games when all set up right.

    #5 1 year ago

    Thank you all, great info. I’ve played a couple of Sega games in the past but they were in rough shape and I couldn’t get a fair assessment.

    #6 1 year ago
    Quoted from Langless28:

    Look at my collection. Lots of B/W and baywatch and batman forever. I think the large dmd era sega games are built very well. All play the same as my other games when all set up right.

    Baywatch is a title we’re considering. Glad to see it resides among a bunch of B/W games and you enjoy how it plays.

    #7 1 year ago

    My Sega/Data East games feel just fine when compared to my Williams/Bally Games. I would say they are just different.

    #8 1 year ago

    They don't compare to the A list, or even some of the Bs, but they have a few good titles. The larger DMD games are pretty good, especially Baywatch and Maverick.

    They aren't as expensive either.

    #9 1 year ago
    Quoted from Gallatinfly:

    Baywatch is a title we’re considering. Glad to see it resides among a bunch of B/W games and you enjoy how it plays.

    LOVE my Baywatch and I highly recommend it. Lots of great shots, multiple objectives, great theme integration and a unique play field layout. The only downside is that the complicated tangle of ramps and wire forms make it a bear to shop out.

    #10 1 year ago

    My LAH is built like a tank. My first pin. Never leaving. Was a reimport from Spain.

    #11 1 year ago

    I had a Data East Jurassic Park and Last Action Hero. Both were built like tanks. The build quality of both machines was fantastic from a cabnitry point of view, and the machines were actually substantially heavier than a standard Bally Williams. I want to say a DE is closer to 300#s while a B/W is usually closer to 250#s. Art and sound are subpart to B/W machines. I am still haunted by newman's fingers on my JP. Electronics and reliability wise... I think they are pretty interchangeable. I think keeping a DE pin working requires the exact skillset that a B/Ws one does. As far as bang for your buck, DE is pretty solid. Think about what comes on a JP or a LAH. JP had a moving dinosaur that ate the freaking ball. LAH had 2 captive ballse, 3 magnets under playfield, a moving crane that interacted with the ball, and the worst art package in pinball. On paper it beats TAF, but in practice it falls short. Would not hesitate to buy a mid-90s Data East.

    #12 1 year ago

    Electronic wise the data East games are almost the same as the williams system 11 games.
    When you get into the sega and the white star board set it is different, and I don’t think quite as reliable. But still repairable.

    Mechanics have a different feel. And I agree the software generally speaking is not as deep as the WPC stuff. Bug great titles available. My DE G and R isn’t going anywhere.

    But great, fun, repairable games for the collection. And as mentioned, most titles are half the price of a WPC.

    #13 1 year ago
    Quoted from sataneatscheese:

    I had a Data East Jurassic Park and Last Action Hero. Both were built like tanks. The build quality of both machines was fantastic from a cabnitry point of view, and the machines were actually substantially heavier than a standard Bally Williams. I want to say a DE is closer to 300#s while a B/W is usually closer to 250#s. Art and sound are subpart to B/W machines. I am still haunted by newman's fingers on my JP. Electronics and reliability wise... I think they are pretty interchangeable. I think keeping a DE pin working requires the exact skillset that a B/Ws one does. As far as bang for your buck, DE is pretty solid. Think about what comes on a JP or a LAH. JP had a moving dinosaur that ate the freaking ball. LAH had 2 captive ballse, 3 magnets under playfield, a moving crane that interacted with the ball, and the worst art package in pinball. On paper it beats TAF, but in practice it falls short. Would not hesitate to buy a mid-90s Data East.

    They definitely seem to have a lot of bang for the buck, especially as B/W prices keep climbing and climbing. I like how Sega and Data East weren’t afraid to mix things up on games. For example, 13 ball multi ball on Apollo 13. From a playing point of view it’s too much, but I respect how they took the chance to do something totally different.

    #14 1 year ago
    Quoted from Gallatinfly:

    They definitely seem to have a lot of bang for the buck, especially as B/W prices keep climbing and climbing. I like how Sega and Data East weren’t afraid to mix things up on games. For example, 13 ball multi ball on Apollo 13. From a playing point of view it’s too much, but I respect how they took the chance to do something totally different.

    I had a nice baywatch that I recently sold...but agree with others that's it's a great game with a lot of fun shots and plenty to do. The large format colorDMD looks awesome for that machine. I also agree that shopping them out and/or installing LEDs (mainly the GIs) is not super fun. You basically have to disassemble the entire playfield to get to most of the GI bulbs which are buried under ramps, wireforms, plastics, and other things. For the DE and Sega games, the GI sockets are stapled in from the underside of the playfield vs. screwed in like B/W games...no bueno. I'd suggest getting one where the LEDs have already been redone to save you the hassle

    Also, if you can find one, the enerGI maestro board is a nice thing to have. They were kinda like the LED OCD boards (these don't work for DE/Sega games), but also have the added benefit of eliminating the annoying flasher relay clicking that these games all have.

    Finally, if you get something like a Baywatch, I'd definitely install the chad code from pinballcode.com. His code updates cover several more popular DE/Sega games and definitely great additions to your gameplay experience.

    #15 1 year ago

    <Insert joke about imamaculate baywatch here>

    #16 1 year ago

    I have a DE JP and a DE TFTC and several WMS/Bally games in my collection as well as a JJP and a Stern. Honestly they are all excellent games.

    I am a huge fan of TFTC and it gets as much play as any of my WMS/Bally games. The same skillset that is required to successfully troubleshoot WMS/Bally games will transfer over to supporting your DE/Sega titles.

    I was a little apprehensive when I purchased my first DE title (JP), but that was unwarranted. For the most part pinball is pinball and as long as the manufacturer was reputable and in business for several years you can find parts and repair your machines as needed.

    My DE machines are very, very solidly built and sit right next to my WMS/Bally titles and look and play great.

    Gord

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from per3per3:

    I had a nice baywatch that I recently sold...but agree with others that's it's a great game with a lot of fun shots and plenty to do. The large format colorDMD looks awesome for that machine. I also agree that shopping them out and/or installing LEDs (mainly the GIs) is not super fun. You basically have to disassemble the entire playfield to get to most of the GI bulbs which are buried under ramps, wireforms, plastics, and other things. For the DE and Sega games, the GI sockets are stapled in from the underside of the playfield vs. screwed in like B/W games...no bueno. I'd suggest getting one where the LEDs have already been redone to save you the hassle
    Also, if you can find one, the enerGI maestro board is a nice thing to have. They were kinda like the LED OCD boards (these don't work for DE/Sega games), but also have the added benefit of eliminating the annoying flasher relay clicking that these games all have.
    Finally, if you get something like a Baywatch, I'd definitely install the chad code from pinballcode.com. His code updates cover several more popular DE/Sega games and definitely great additions to your gameplay experience.

    Great intel on the bulbs, board and code!

    #18 1 year ago
    Quoted from TopMoose:

    LOVE my Baywatch and I highly recommend it. Lots of great shots, multiple objectives, great theme integration and a unique play field layout. The only downside is that the complicated tangle of ramps and wire forms make it a bear to shop out.

    I agree with everything you just said.Also, swapping out the display for a color display really cranks up the visuals. It is worth it on this game.

    #19 1 year ago
    Quoted from GRB1959:

    I have a DE JP and a DE TFTC and several WMS/Bally games in my collection as well as a JJP and a Stern. Honestly they are all excellent games.
    I am a huge fan of TFTC and it gets as much play as any of my WMS/Bally games. The same skillset that is required to successfully troubleshoot WMS/Bally games will transfer over to supporting your DE/Sega titles.
    I was a little apprehensive when I purchased my first DE title (JP), but that was unwarranted. For the most part pinball is pinball and as long as the manufacturer was reputable and in business for several years you can find parts and repair your machines as needed.
    My DE machines are very, very solidly built and sit right next to my WMS/Bally titles and look and play great.
    Gord

    With yours and everyone else’s comments here I feel far more comfortable taking the leap. It’s extremely helpful hearing detailed first-hand information.

    #20 1 year ago
    Quoted from Gallatinfly:

    With yours and everyone else’s comments here I feel far more comfortable taking the leap. It’s extremely helpful hearing detailed first-hand information.

    Keep in the mind the DEs are different than the Segas.

    #21 1 year ago

    The only thing Sega and Bally/Williams have in common is that they're both from the same era.

    #22 1 year ago

    DE/sega owners, what are we doing? Need to keep how good they are on the DL. Helps keep prices low

    -1
    #23 1 year ago

    I've always felt Data East/Sega games had a "cheap" feel to them. Cabinet woodworking seems flimsy. Plus paint jobs were piss-poor. Playfields seemed like lower quality wood than other manufacturers. Screws were always stripping out in the wood on the playfields. Even metal brackets were breaking like the slingshot brackets and upkicker brackets on HOOK. Shopping out HOOK is a real pain because so much stuff on the playfield has to be taken off.

    Sega games had that flimsy "tv set" looking backbox that was so very delicate and would break easily when lowering the backbox for transport. Data East had the capacitors in the high voltage section of the power supply board leak and fuck up the traces and kill the display HV power.

    For my money, stick with Williams machines. The quality is definitely better than Data East/Sega machines.

    Data East/Sega machines are as bad as Game Plan or Allied Leisure.

    #24 1 year ago

    The DE/Sega games do feel different and alot of people don't like that. I own a DE JP and it's one of the few DE titles I like enough to own (and the theme is top 2 for me, which helps). I owned a Baywatch and liked it, it was just the low man on the totem pole unfortunately when something needed to go to buy my Road Show.

    I think the biggest gameplay differences you will notice are the flippers as has been mentioned alot and the playfield design and shot feel. DE and Sega games tend to not shoot as smooth as B/W games IMO and feel clunkier. Some are worse than others for sure, and of course on any game it helps when you are consistently making your shots, but I notice a pretty big difference in the way the games shoot. At least to me, the Sega games tend to feel a bit better and have better rules that are closer to 90s B/W rule sets. The art and theme on alot of these titles isn't great either, and the sound leaves alot to be desired.

    You will hear the "bang for the buck" thrown around alot with these games, but there is a reason they don't command as much money or desire as the B/W games, and it's not because they are top secret games no one has heard about . Yes, LAH does have like 18 magnets, a crane, two spinners, etc. - but when the game isn't fun to play, does it really matter how much crap they crammed into it?

    It probably sounds like I hate these games, which isn't true, I will likely have my JP for ever, and I'd own Baywatch again, and I'd like to have a Goldeneye at some point - heck, Lost In Space of all games I have a good time playing, but they do have a different feel to them.

    That all said - if you want a DE/Sega game just because you don't own one, you will probably be disappointed. If you've played one and you know you like it...then there ya go!

    #25 1 year ago

    Go play a Baywatch. I have it sitting next to 3 B/W games, and it is easily the one that people gravitate to more. And I'm saying that when my personal favorite, Scared Stiff, is in that same lineup. I don't "feel" anything different about it, especially given that I own a Premier(SMB) as well. Those definitely have a different feel to me.
    That being said, sometimes the game was a just a vehicle for the license. I own a Lost World:Jurassic Park as well, and it suffers from that, IMO.

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from grantopia:

    The DE/Sega games do feel different and alot of people don't like that. I own a DE JP and it's one of the few DE titles I like enough to own (and the theme is top 2 for me, which helps). I owned a Baywatch and liked it, it was just the low man on the totem pole unfortunately when something needed to go to buy my Road Show.
    I think the biggest gameplay differences you will notice are the flippers as has been mentioned alot and the playfield design and shot feel. DE and Sega games tend to not shoot as smooth as B/W games IMO and feel clunkier. Some are worse than others for sure, and of course on any game it helps when you are consistently making your shots, but I notice a pretty big difference in the way the games shoot. At least to me, the Sega games tend to feel a bit better and have better rules that are closer to 90s B/W rule sets. The art and theme on alot of these titles isn't great either, and the sound leaves alot to be desired.
    You will hear the "bang for the buck" thrown around alot with these games, but there is a reason they don't command as much money or desire as the B/W games, and it's not because they are top secret games no one has heard about . Yes, LAH does have like 18 magnets, a crane, two spinners, etc. - but when the game isn't fun to play, does it really matter how much crap they crammed into it?
    It probably sounds like I hate these games, which isn't true, I will likely have my JP for ever, and I'd own Baywatch again, and I'd like to have a Goldeneye at some point - heck, Lost In Space of all games I have a good time playing, but they do have a different feel to them.
    That all said - if you want a DE/Sega game just because you don't own one, you will probably be disappointed. If you've played one and you know you like it...then there ya go!

    Is the flipper clunkiness something that happens over time or is it that way right out of the box? Do you think a complete flipper rebuild would make a difference? I had a B/W Black Rose and the flippers didn’t have that typical smooth B/W feel, they were a bit clunky. It didn’t really bother me because they were strong and did not affect gameplay.

    #27 1 year ago
    Quoted from Gallatinfly:

    Is the flipper clunkiness something that happens over time or is it that way right out of the box? Do you think a complete flipper rebuild would make a difference? I had a B/W Black Rose and the flippers didn’t have that typical smooth B/W feel, they were a bit clunky. It didn’t really bother me because they were strong and did not affect gameplay.

    I wouldn’t characterize it as “clunky,” but rather as a “lighter” feel, like the mechanisms are made of cheaper, thinner materials. It feels more like a toy to me, without the satisfying weight of a B/W flipper.

    And, again, this doesn’t apply to Data East or early Segas - it’s really just Goldeneye through Godzilla.

    #28 1 year ago
    Quoted from TopMoose:

    I wouldn’t characterize it as “clunky,” but rather as a “lighter” feel, like the mechanisms are made of cheaper, thinner materials. It feels more like a toy to me, without the satisfying weight of a B/W flipper.
    And, again, this doesn’t apply to Data East or early Segas - it’s really just Goldeneye through Godzilla.

    I still don’t see this. To your point I have played mostly large dmd and earlier sega and data East.

    I have not played the round showcase series of sega that was at the end of their run.

    Their flipper mech design is what stern currently uses. It was designed to be more robust than Williams with the solid metal pawl.

    #29 1 year ago

    My two largest pet- peaves with segas. Stapled lamp sockets and needing to lift up on the playfield to slide it back in.

    #30 1 year ago
    Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

    <Insert joke about imamaculate baywatch here>

    I don’t why but Baywatch plays better without legs

    #31 1 year ago

    Most Data East and Segas have some of the worst pinball artwork ever. Almost as bad as some Gottliebs. And they won't line up with your Williams games.

    That being said, they had titles that were super fun to play with current licensed themes that rivaled most anything Williams licensed from the same time period. Twister is a good example of that. I could only watch Johnny Pneumatic once. Unfortunately, original themes from DE and Sega were slim to none.

    When you are done, your lineup will probably consist of mostly B/W games again.

    #32 1 year ago

    all of the jumbo dmd segas are decent games. baywatch is the best one of the bunch, owned most of the other sega's over the years....none of them were keepers

    #33 1 year ago

    I think they are built like tanks and they have some great themes for newbs and friends that come over. My time machine gets played to death and that's the only reason I keep it. I play my maverick more than anything I got.

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