(Topic ID: 186452)

Sea Ray Startup - credit relay energized but not coin relay

By Edenecho

7 years ago


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  • 45 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Edenecho
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider rolf_martin_062.
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#12 7 years ago

Hi Edenecho +
I would not talk reading a schematics top-down or bottom-up. To get a better format of the printed schematics: Bally kind of folded the stuff - see the JPG.
AC-current is not DC-current - but "OK, good enough for me": I say "The transformer produces 50 Volts POWER - it comes out at "the letter 'F' of the word transformer" - it is secured / controlled by a fuse". Then the juice runs through some "general purpose switches (when You bang a tilt: A lot of playfield-stuff shall no longer work)" --- through consumers - through switches (specific for a feature). Then the "worked-out / exhausted" electrons return to the transformer - entering (Yellow-Wire) the transformer.
The same system works on the 6Volt-Side. The "Wire-Yellow" is the returning path for the "worked-out / exhausted" electrons of 50Volt-circuitry as well as for the 6Volt-circuitry. Greetings Rolf

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#14 7 years ago

Hi Edenecho
it is rather silly to talk about "something is important in reading schematics" --- everything is important.
You have made good observation "manually activating the Coin-RELAY makes the pin to start a new game". You have encountered "Initial-Current / -Circuitry (non-working) and the 'established Self-Hold-Current / -Circuitry' ".
May want to try "throwing in a coin into First-Coin-Chute" --- see the lemon-green line - the Coin-Relay gets Initial-Current and pulls-in. Then the (working in Your pin) "Self-Hold-Current" is established - a switch mounted on the relay closes as the relay pulls --- "encircled dark-green switch" closes and establish the "Self-Hold-Circuitry" - the relay stays pulling for a while until the Score-Motor-Switch-encircled-dark-green cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry and the Coin-Relay lets go.

The same applies to "Credit-Relay": Initial-Current (light-blue lines, pressing the Credit-Button) --- and then the "Self-Hold-Circuitry, dark-blue lines".

And my "marked red switch and wires" are also a way of "feeding Initial-Current to Coin-Relay" --- as the pulling-in Credit-Relay closes a switch --- and the Coin-Relay therefore pulls-in.

If You still have the problem of "Credit-Relay pulls - BUT NOT the Coin-Relay": Want to investigate switch and wiring "JPG, marked red" ? Greetings Rolf

0Sea-Ray-Work-07 (resized).jpg0Sea-Ray-Work-07 (resized).jpg

#17 7 years ago

Hi Edenecho
lets look at Your picture in post-16, the Coin-Relay. I see a short grey wire running from a solder-lug on the coil - running to a switch mounted on the relay - the switch "encircled green on the JPG in post-14". On the other Switchblade of this switch is soldered-on: wire-blue-red.

WHERE in Your pin is the Credit-RELAY mounted ? Near the Coin-Relay ? Or far away ? Maybe the Coin-Relay sits in the Cabinet and the Credit-Relay sits in the Backbox - and there are connecting wires running through a Jones-Plug ? Write about.

Locate the Credit-Relay - locate the switch with the SAME wire-colors "wire-grey" and "wire blue red".
The following is not a fix - it is a try in troubleshooting: Take a Jumper-Wire and establish an "permanent Jumper" connecting the lugs "grey" to "grey". Take a second Jumper-Wire and establish an "permanent Jumper" connecting the lugs "blue-red" to "blue-red". In reality there are connections - but maybe broken --- we simply make "guaranteed connection". Then try the pin - Luck ? No Luck ?

We probably live in different time-zones --- in Switzerland is thirty minutes before midnight - time to go to sleep. till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#21 7 years ago

Hi Edenecho
I made a fault in writing the colors of wire - "wrong was/is: blue-red" --- correct is: "blue-white". The way You have set the Jumpering: Correct.

BUT the Coin-Relay does / do NOT pull-in, hmm.
In post-1 You wrote: "When I manually push-in the Coin-Relay ..." so the question by now is: Did You push for a looooong time - or did You just push for a tenth of a second and the relay ITSELF kept pulling on its own ? Please try: Only push for a thenth of a second and let go --- does it stays pulling on its own for a while ? Greetings Rolf
P.S.: It is close to midnight - I must go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#23 7 years ago

Hi Morten
You can start a a game by pressing the armature of the Coin-Relay - You have a new fault "Ball is NOT kicked out". I would like to put aside for the moment the "Coin-Relay-Problem". You write "have done several things - example: Adjusted the Outhole-Switch (underneathside of the playfield, near the flippers)". So the first thought (concerning the NOT-Kicking the Ball out) is "mal-adjusted Switch" - it does not close anymore.
Start a game - pin does the reset --- its time to kick the ball - but it does not: NOW gently press the armature of Outhole-Relay - question: Does the pin completes the start-up by kicking-out the ball ?

Another way to get information: Have the pin toggled-off and main power cord unplugged (Safety Reasons), have the playfield up - sneak-in a stripe of thin paper in the switch, between the contact-points - then with a finger simulate "Ball is in the Outhole - closing the switch --- well grab the stripe of paper and pull --- question: Can You easily pull-out the stripe of paper (this tells us: Switch is not truely closed) --- OR does the switch beeing truely closed: HOLDS the stripe of paper - You cannot pull it out "easily" ? Greetings Rolf

#25 7 years ago

Hi Morten
You make observations*** of great value - post-24, Scenario-2: Having the Ball-Count-Unit in Reset-Position (means: Ball One, means Position-Zero) You can start a game by pressing the armature on Coin-Relay - pin resets AND the Outhole-Kicker fires, great. So the "Outhole-Switch is good".
But we get a new question --- WHY does Your pin is sometimes with "Ball-Count-Unit in Position-Zero" - and why sometimes in "Position-1,2,3,4,5 (non-Zero)" AND WHY does the pin starting-up (as You press the armature of the Coin-Relay) - WHY does the pin starting-up NOT reset the Ball-Count-Unit to Position-Zero ???
Every time You start a new (One-Player) Game: The Ball-Count-Unit MUST be resetted to Position-Zero.

The JPG You show in post-24 shows: Switches on Ball-Count-Unit work "as should".

BEFORE You do a new test - please: Toggle-off the main power switch - then toggle-on again - here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2085&picno=1974 in the lower right corner I see lighted "Game Over" --- You toggle-off and You toggle-on - question: Do You see the "Game Over Light in the Backglass" ? Please write about.
When You have the main power cord unplugged: Manually step the Ball-Count-Unit to position-2 or position-3 - then plug-in, toggle-on - press the armature of the Coin-Relay - question: Does the Ball-Count-Unit reset to position-Zero ? IT MUST. If it does not: We must fix this first.

Your observations*** - the two bladed switch on Ball-Count-Unit does not really interest us. The manufacturers mounted this switch for: In an arcade-room a man having lot of money starts a new game - plays the first ball - looses the ball having only made very few points, pin steps to second ball --- the man then says: " I do not want to play the rest of the balls - I have enough money - I START a NEW game right away ...

Of interest is the three bladed switch - see encircled red - beeing in Position-Zero: This switch on the Ball-Count-Unit MAKES the Game-Over-Relay LATCH. And we need the Game-Over-Relay latched so the Outhole-Relay HAS connection so it can pull-in.

So I reapeat and ask again - BEFORE You do a new test - please: Toggle-off the main power switch - then toggle-on again.
When You have the main power cord unplugged: Manually step the Ball-Count-Unit to position-2 or position-3 - then plug-in, toggle-on press the armature of the Coin-Relay - question: Does the Ball-Count-Unit RESET ??? to position-Zero ? IT MUST. If it does not: We must fix this first. Greetings Rolf

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1 week later
#29 6 years ago

Hi Morten
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sea-ray-start-routine-is-off#post-3747369 --- please check that "Make and Brake Switch on the Reset-Relay". Greetings Rolf

It is a bit of a "ceremony" --- we toggle-on the pin - then press the left flipper button (it simply is such a nice feature).

Gottlieb uses the term "S-Start-Relay" --- Williams and Bally call it Coin-Relay - but Start-Relay would / is "better term". It starts the startup-procedure - makes the Score-Motor run, makes the Reset-Relay pull-in --- then the Reset-Relay has the lead and the Coin-Relay says "I have done my work - I stop / quit pulling".

Gottliebs S-Start-Relay and Williams / Bally Coin-Relay can be made pulling when the pin is set for "ONE Coin thrown in into a Coin-Chute" shall "start a game" --- the relay is made pulling direct.

When we press the Credit-Button: BEFORE the Start-Relay / Coin-Relay is made pulling-in: The Credit-Wheel must be made stepping down one step --- this is made by activating the CREDIT-Relay. Immediately after the Credit-Relay is pulling-in: The pulling Credit-Relay closes a switch (on the Credit-Relay) to make the Start-Relay / Coin-Relay pull-in ...

Try and what does make the pin start: Good for the moment. Try "pressing the armature of 'Credit-Relay' " --- does this makes the pin to start a game ? Greetings Rolf

1 week later
#31 6 years ago

Hi Morten
another post to come about troubleshooting --- this one is only theory. In post-30 You ask "what makes the pin start".

Your pin has a Credit-Relay, has a Coin-Relay, has a Reset-Relay --- why not more relays ? Why not less relays ?
The schematics shows "Your pin most likely has a Coin-Chute for a small / little Coin and there is an Adjustment-Plug that can be set to "ONE Coin - ONE Play". You throw-in such a Coin and (only / just) the Coin-Relay gets active --- a better name for that relay would be "Start-Relay" - but lets always use the Williams term "Coin-Relay".

There is a big difference if we AAA "Start a completely new One-Player / First-Player Game" or if we BBB start for the second player. When its AAA then the pin must reset the Score-Drums - must reset playfield-stuff - maybe must reset the Bonus-Counter. When its BBB: ALL the resetting stuff has been done before (when we started for first player) --- when its BBB: Little to do.
Thats why the manufacturer made the Reset-Relay. When its AAA: The Coin-Relay (better name would be Start-Relay) does a bit of work - then calls the Reset-Relay "Hey Reset-Relay take over and manage the resetting". When its BBB: The Coin-Relay says "no need to call" and does not call the Reset-Relay.

Credit-Relay ? When we throw-in a Coin and a game is started right away: Credit-Relay is not involved. Most-likely Your pin has another Coin-Chute --- throwing in a coin does add credits to the Credit-Wheel - also called Replay-Wheel / Credit-Counter / Replay-Counter or ...-Unit.
You have credits and You press the Replay-Button / Credit-Button on the front of the pin: NOW, this makes the Credit-Relay pull-in to handle "subtracting a credit on / off the Credit-Wheel". Immediately afterwards the Credit-Relay makes the Coin-Relay pull in etc. etc.

In the 1960/70ies in the arcade-rooms nobody had acces to the inside of the pin, so the manufacturers simply sneaked in another switch "closed when there are credits on the Credit-Wheel / open when there are no credits". You press the Replay-Button - a switch closes --- IF (if) the other switch is also closed: Credit-Relay gets current so it pulls-in.
There is a little rod on the Credit-Wheel --- when stepping down: the rod comes closer and closer to a switch - and stepping from ONE down to ZERO: The rod opens this switch.
We now own the pin and have access to the inside of the pin - we set the pin for "FREE PLAY" --- we simply cheat - we manipulate this switch (bending a blade or better: connecting the solder-lugs) - "Switch is (electrically) always closed - is closed when there are no credits on the Credit-Wheel". So pressing the Replay-Button makes the Coin-Relay pull-in - it calls the Credit-Wheel "Hey, step down" --- the Coil on the Credit-Wheel pulls --- but its mechanically not possible to step below Zero. And the mechanical stuff gets not damaged by this attempt "stepping below zero".

I simplified a bit "little to do / no need to call / / /" --- there are switches on the Ball-Count-Unit and the Game-Over-Relay is involved --- lets try to fix the pin and AFTER the fixing: Have another, closer look at the "start of a game". Greetings Rolf

#32 6 years ago

Hi Morten
troubleshooting --- I would like to know "does the RESET-Coil on Ball-Count-Unit fire when we force connection on the 'returning side to transformer-lug-YELLOW' ?"

Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power-cord (Safety Reasons - Your pin has 48 VAC). Clip-on a Jumper-Wire at the coil "side wire-of-color-gray-black" is soldered-on. Take the other end near the transformer and lay the gator-clip of the Jumper-Wire NEAR - lay it on wood - not touching metal.

Plug-in, toggle-on, "start a game" --- pin idles. Carefully grab the Jumper-Wire on the insulated wire and tip-on the gator-clip onto "Transformer-Lug-Yellow (two muddy-brownish-yellowish wires are soldered-on)" --- question: Does the coil fire ?

If "No": Toggle-off, unplug the main power-cord ---establish another Jumper-Wire connecting "Coil side wire-black" to 48-VAC-Fuse SIDE WIRE-BLACK !!! (we want the fuse in the circuitry wiring).
Plug-in, toggle-on, "start a game" --- pin idles. Carefully grab the (my green Jumper-Wire in my JPG) Jumper-Wire on the insulated wire and tip-on the gator-clip onto "Transformer-Lug-Yellow)" --- question: Does the coil fire ? Greetings Rolf

0Sea-Ray-Work-10 (resized).jpg0Sea-Ray-Work-10 (resized).jpg

5 months later
#37 6 years ago

Hi Paul
xsvtoys made an gorgeous topic https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-schematic-fully-described-from-beginning-to-end-bally-bon-voyage about his "Bally Bon Voyage" --- ipdb http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=343 has the manual and the schematics. When You study xsvtoys topic You will understand Bally-ONE-Player-pin - well an "Add-A-Ball" pin. (((The stepping through the balls is different from a Replay-Pin)))
Your Sea Ray is an REPLAY pin - and it is an TWO-Player-pin - but the Bon Voyage topic is very good.

SteveFury made an very good video "starting a Williams FOUR-Player-Pin" - Williams and Bally use the same logic --- read here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-a-go-go-lock-relay-not-locking#post-3612269 --- AND follow the link and watch the video.

"Problems on YOUR Sea Ray" --- a NEW topic is attractive for pinsiders wanting to help --- want to start Your own topic ? Greetings Rolf

2 weeks later
#39 6 years ago

Hi Edenecho
I gladly accept when fate is nice and friendly - a fault dissapears forever. Yes, a solderpoint can go bad - and fumbling on it (clipping-on a Jumper-Wire - slightly move / bend) may bring back connection. May want use an solder-iron and (re) solder ?

Your No-Match-Unit sticks sometimes --- it is a continuous stepper beeing stepped and stepped - around and around - forward, forward. The coil pulling-in pulls the plunger and with an arm moved "tooth on the moved arm" gets behind "tooth on the cam / wheel" --- the coil then looses current, let go and the retaining spring moves back the arm and the plunger. THIS spring makes the step (tooth on tooth makes the cam turn).

Here http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK in the Bally 1973 Parts Catalog http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1973/index.html here http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1973/index.html#/92/ we see the unit. We may click on the magnifying button (bottom of the picture to the left) and we see http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1973/index.html#/92/zoomed --- we can move up and down in the picture.
I made snapshots of it and put together - see the first JPG.

I do not have Bally pins - I never did on a Williams pin what I now suggest. You may try the suggestion - maybe it helps - maybe not.
If "No Luck" - I then suggest: Start a new topic with an good title (an new topic is more interesting than a revived old one) just about this No-Match-Unit problem. (((May show the (shown above) links again - may use the JPGs I show here - use the good pictures You have shown here)))
Again: On this specific Bally-No-Match-Unit-Problem the only thing I can do / help: Showing (second) JPG - my idea of "kind of tightening for a try" using a lace around the middle of the spring - pulling aside --- this will put more tension into the "straight orange direction" --- and when "more tension" fixes the problem: You then may want to shorten the spring a bit which also puts-in more tension in the spring. Greetings Rolf

0Match-Unit-small (resized).jpg0Match-Unit-small (resized).jpg

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1 year later
#43 5 years ago

Hi Edenecho
I am in consternation, sad to read about Your wife. Consternation, commiseration, compation are english words (translations from a dictionary - I am german speaking) - my deepest condolences.

Please start an new topic on Sea Ray - give a description on the first fault showing up - we look at it - hopefully can fix it - then look at next fault and so on. Greetings Rolf

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