Sea Ray Startup - credit relay energized but not coin relay | EM Pinball Hangout

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#1 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Hi,
asking here since I got som great help earlier with my Bally Sea Ray Longer story short; I posted in an earlier thread reharding my Sea Ray I had bought.
Got around to making it work, then had to swap some stressed coils and store it away for some months, and upon starting it again I have some issues. Its really closing in, have read similar threads but need some input from you EM guru's

1. I power on the machine and press left flipper button. GI lights up and the lock relay is energized.
2. The machine is "set" to free play. When I push the credit (start) button, I hear a click which is the credit relay which is energized, but then nothing.
3. When I manually push in/activate the coin relay, everything is reset and a new game starts, ball fed to plunger lane. The game is played as normal, everything seems in to work.

Any idea where I should start looking, what is the missing link between the credit relay being energized, and the coin relay not being energized? Reading the "Introduction to Bally machines" manual, I see that when the credit relay is energized it should also energize the coin relay (directly after?) so could that indicate a wiring issue between those those relays?

I have also manually inspected all the relay switches and they seem to work as intended, with the correct gaps/state when energized.
Can of course do an even in-depth check if necessary.

Hope for some valuable input! I am so keen on getting this Sea Ray up fully functioning

Kind regards and thanks,
Morten

0

#2 7 years ago

CTO

ArgosySK

Pinside member

Regina, SK

7y 52,900 499 4

Add a few credits to the credit wheel and see if problem still happens. If so, check you "free play" configuration.

0

#3 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Quoted from ArgosySK:
Add a few credits to the credit wheel and see if problem still happens. If so, check you "free play" configuration.

After one of my playthroughs, I earned an extra credit. The problem still persisted, unfortunately.
Also, just for curiuosity, if there are no credits and its not on free play, should the credit relay even energize when pushing the credit button?

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#4 7 years ago

CTO

ArgosySK

Pinside member

Regina, SK

7y 52,900 499 4

Sorry just sold by1970 Bally Trail Drive. Don't have the schematic. Just a soft copy of the instructions.
It goes Credit button to Credit relay, Credit relay to Coin Relay. I would check the schematic to see what is in between the Credit and Coin Relay energize path. (Should be nothing)
Make sure the normally open Switch on the Credit relay that is to activate the coin relay is clean and fully closed when activated.

Also check that the wire/solder joints are still intact.

Post last edited 7 years ago: “Added check wires,”

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#5 7 years ago

CTO

ArgosySK

Pinside member

Regina, SK

7y 52,900 499 4

Check the other wire on the credit switch on the schematic, the trail drive when to CAM 8 and the Front Door Slam.

0

#6 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Quoted from ArgosySK:
Sorry just sold by1970 Bally Trail Drive. Don't have the schematic. Just a soft copy of the instructions.
It goes Credit button to Credit relay, Credit relay to Coin Relay. I would check the schematic to see what is in between the Credit and Coin Relay energize path. (Should be nothing)
Make sure the normally open Switch on the Credit relay that is to activate the coin relay is clean and fully closed when activated.
Also check that the wire/solder joints are still intact.

I am looking at a (not top) copy of the Sea Ray Schematics here:
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2085/Bally_1971_Sea_Ray_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf

I am still trying to get the hang of schematics. Are you supposed to start at the top level and go from left to right?
The only places I see credit relay is at C3, D5 and E6, it seems.. But from the top level (F-J?) only see the coin relay.

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#7 7 years ago

CTO

ArgosySK

Pinside member

Regina, SK

7y 52,900 499 4

I am looking at the schematic between B2 and E2 Ok looks like Gray (90-4) connected tot the Coin re. (C2) Blue-w (25-5) (follow right and then down to 8D SCM Normally closed. Down then left to the Front Door Slam br-r (61-6).

That should be the path. So check the the credit relay Gray and blu-w switch, The 8D blue-w and br-r and the Front door Slam switch. (On your coin door - looks like a tilt and should be normally closed)

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#8 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Quoted from ArgosySK:
I am looking at the schematic between B2 and E2 Ok looks like Gray (90-4) connected tot the Coin re. (C2) Blue-w (25-5) (follow right and then down to 8D SCM Normally closed. Down then left to the Front Door Slam br-r (61-6).
That should be the path. So check the the credit relay Gray and blu-w switch, The 8D blue-w and br-r and the Front door Slam switch. (On your coin door - looks like a tilt and should be normally closed)

Thanks, Will inspect it further as soon as I am at the club/machine again.
Ah trying to understand schematics wrecks my mind

Are you reading from the left to right, is that how the "trace" is going?

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#9 7 years ago

CTO

ArgosySK

Pinside member

Regina, SK

7y 52,900 499 4

Top to Bottom. (Black to Yellow) have to have a complete circuit. Because your not adding coins. I ignored those paths. Left to right is from the transform. Because the Credit relay works it's not a fuse

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#10 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Alright...so, bear with me, does that means that in the following image; I press the credit button, which I know energizes he credit relay... then I find the credit relay which I have circled in green, and following the lines down from it, when it is energized then the ball count unit switch and game over relay switch will be closed (since they are normally open) etc? But how does that work with the credit button switch which is normally open?

Is it not the credit button which is closed first, which in turn energizes the credit relay?

schem2 (resized).png

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#11 7 years ago

CTO

ArgosySK

Pinside member

Regina, SK

7y 52,900 499 4

Credit button is normally open. so the Credit relay doesn't fire. When press the Credit button then it changes from open to close. It go up to the Credit unit zero (No credit on the wheel) If there are one or more credit or set up for free play this would be closed. Then it goes up from through one of the 3 paths (whichever one is closed) to the Coil. Then the coil energized and closes all the Normally open switches for the Credit relay.

Post last edited 7 years ago: “typos”

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#12 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Edenecho +
I would not talk reading a schematics top-down or bottom-up. To get a better format of the printed schematics: Bally kind of folded the stuff - see the JPG.
AC-current is not DC-current - but "OK, good enough for me": I say "The transformer produces 50 Volts POWER - it comes out at "the letter 'F' of the word transformer" - it is secured / controlled by a fuse". Then the juice runs through some "general purpose switches (when You bang a tilt: A lot of playfield-stuff shall no longer work)" --- through consumers - through switches (specific for a feature). Then the "worked-out / exhausted" electrons return to the transformer - entering (Yellow-Wire) the transformer.
The same system works on the 6Volt-Side. The "Wire-Yellow" is the returning path for the "worked-out / exhausted" electrons of 50Volt-circuitry as well as for the 6Volt-circuitry. Greetings Rolf

0Sea-Ray-Work-06 (resized).jpg

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#13 7 years ago

CTO

ArgosySK

Pinside member

Regina, SK

7y 52,900 499 4

Here is a good resource on how things work.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic

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#14 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Edenecho
it is rather silly to talk about "something is important in reading schematics" --- everything is important.
You have made good observation "manually activating the Coin-RELAY makes the pin to start a new game". You have encountered "Initial-Current / -Circuitry (non-working) and the 'established Self-Hold-Current / -Circuitry' ".
May want to try "throwing in a coin into First-Coin-Chute" --- see the lemon-green line - the Coin-Relay gets Initial-Current and pulls-in. Then the (working in Your pin) "Self-Hold-Current" is established - a switch mounted on the relay closes as the relay pulls --- "encircled dark-green switch" closes and establish the "Self-Hold-Circuitry" - the relay stays pulling for a while until the Score-Motor-Switch-encircled-dark-green cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry and the Coin-Relay lets go.

The same applies to "Credit-Relay": Initial-Current (light-blue lines, pressing the Credit-Button) --- and then the "Self-Hold-Circuitry, dark-blue lines".

And my "marked red switch and wires" are also a way of "feeding Initial-Current to Coin-Relay" --- as the pulling-in Credit-Relay closes a switch --- and the Coin-Relay therefore pulls-in.

If You still have the problem of "Credit-Relay pulls - BUT NOT the Coin-Relay": Want to investigate switch and wiring "JPG, marked red" ? Greetings Rolf

0Sea-Ray-Work-07 (resized).jpg

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#15 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Thanks for the additional input, I will go to our club in some hours and check further based on your inputs. I am sure update with more questions will come, but I hope to get somewhat closer to the culprit =)

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#16 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

So, I checked further on Sea Ray yesterday, but unfortunately Im more bewildered than before.
1. I started by checking the door slam tilt, it was normally closed as it should. The credit button is naturally also normally open.
2. I checked all the switches on the credit relay, and also pulled at the wires to see if they were loose. All switches close when energized, and all wires was solidly connected.

I noticed that the outhole switch seemed to be closed both when the ball was in the outhole and when it wasnt. This seemed wrong, so I adjusted it so when the ball is in the outhole it is closed, and when it is not the switch is open.

Now when I started a game by activating the coin relay, it did not longer kick the ball from the outhole…

On H-5 in the schematics, the outhole switch is normally open so it should be correct.
But, that is besides the main issue, which still is that the coin relay is not energized when I push the credit button and the credit relay is energized.

I feel like when reading your tips I know where to look but when Im at the machine and try to figure out the schematics suddenly nothing makes sense...sigh. Is there more ways I could try and find the culprit between the credit relay and coin relay ?

Added an image of the coin relay, though dont think it will help with anything..

Thanks,
willing-to-learn-but-easily-confused-Morten

20170411_232855 (resized).jpg

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#17 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Edenecho
lets look at Your picture in post-16, the Coin-Relay. I see a short grey wire running from a solder-lug on the coil - running to a switch mounted on the relay - the switch "encircled green on the JPG in post-14". On the other Switchblade of this switch is soldered-on: wire-blue-red.

WHERE in Your pin is the Credit-RELAY mounted ? Near the Coin-Relay ? Or far away ? Maybe the Coin-Relay sits in the Cabinet and the Credit-Relay sits in the Backbox - and there are connecting wires running through a Jones-Plug ? Write about.

Locate the Credit-Relay - locate the switch with the SAME wire-colors "wire-grey" and "wire blue red".
The following is not a fix - it is a try in troubleshooting: Take a Jumper-Wire and establish an "permanent Jumper" connecting the lugs "grey" to "grey". Take a second Jumper-Wire and establish an "permanent Jumper" connecting the lugs "blue-red" to "blue-red". In reality there are connections - but maybe broken --- we simply make "guaranteed connection". Then try the pin - Luck ? No Luck ?

We probably live in different time-zones --- in Switzerland is thirty minutes before midnight - time to go to sleep. till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

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#18 7 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,246

Quoted from ArgosySK:
Make sure the normally open Switch on the Credit relay that is to activate the coin relay is clean and fully closed when activated. Also check that the wire/solder joints are still intact.

Since activating the coin relay directly works, ArgosySK suggestion is most likely right. Your schematic lists that switch as having a Blue&White wire on one terminal and Gray on the other. Quickly shorting those 2 wires together should make your game start. I attached a piece of your schematic with the circuit hilited in green and the switch circled in red.

Pinball (resized).png

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#19 7 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Thanks, i will look at that area.
rolf_martin_062 I live in norway so i believe we are in the same time zone
Just wrapping up easter vacation so will attempt to "jump-wire" this switches on the relay tomorrow after work, and report back.

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#20 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

rolf_martin_062
The credit relay and coin relay are very close, just separated by some coin chute relays in between.

Im a little bit confused because I could not see blue-red wire but as HowardR pointed out, maybe you mean the blue-w? Difficult to read schematic due to poor schematic resolution for all involved. I should try buy physical schematics..

So the troubleshooting:
I found the switch on credit relay with grey and blue-white wires, and the switch on coin relay with the same wire colors.

I put a red jumper wire from the switch tab with grey wire on credit relay to the tab with grey wire on coin relay.
Then I put a white jumper wire from the switch tab with blue-white wire in credit relay to the tab with blue-white wire on the coin relay.

See attached photos, and also a paint illustration.

I powered on the machine, pressed left flipper button for lights and the lock relay engages,
press credit button... the credit relay energizes, but the coin relay still doesnt energize. So the same as before :/

Is this the correct way to test with jumper wires or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks,
Morten

coin_relay02 (resized).jpg
credit_relay01 (resized).jpg
jumper illustration (resized).png

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#21 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Edenecho
I made a fault in writing the colors of wire - "wrong was/is: blue-red" --- correct is: "blue-white". The way You have set the Jumpering: Correct.

BUT the Coin-Relay does / do NOT pull-in, hmm.
In post-1 You wrote: "When I manually push-in the Coin-Relay ..." so the question by now is: Did You push for a looooong time - or did You just push for a tenth of a second and the relay ITSELF kept pulling on its own ? Please try: Only push for a thenth of a second and let go --- does it stays pulling on its own for a while ? Greetings Rolf
P.S.: It is close to midnight - I must go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

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#22 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

I just pushed the coin relay short and let go, and it pulled in.
As mentioned before, now it does not even spill the ball out from the outhole though. Dont know if that is related, it should not be if Ive understood correctly.

Just for backtracing:
The elements I have "touched" between it worked and now are:
1. Cleaned the 00-90 unit, separated the wiper arms to clean arms too.

2. Cleaned the ball count unit, and adjusted the switches on this unit as they seemed bent out of normal position. Can post photos of this for verification if necessary/interested.

3. Adjusted the outhole switch, as it seemed always closed,where I believe it should be normally open when the ball is NOT in the outhole(?)
----
But, cant really see how the above should affect the connection between credit relay and coin relay.

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#23 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Morten
You can start a a game by pressing the armature of the Coin-Relay - You have a new fault "Ball is NOT kicked out". I would like to put aside for the moment the "Coin-Relay-Problem". You write "have done several things - example: Adjusted the Outhole-Switch (underneathside of the playfield, near the flippers)". So the first thought (concerning the NOT-Kicking the Ball out) is "mal-adjusted Switch" - it does not close anymore.
Start a game - pin does the reset --- its time to kick the ball - but it does not: NOW gently press the armature of Outhole-Relay - question: Does the pin completes the start-up by kicking-out the ball ?

Another way to get information: Have the pin toggled-off and main power cord unplugged (Safety Reasons), have the playfield up - sneak-in a stripe of thin paper in the switch, between the contact-points - then with a finger simulate "Ball is in the Outhole - closing the switch --- well grab the stripe of paper and pull --- question: Can You easily pull-out the stripe of paper (this tells us: Switch is not truely closed) --- OR does the switch beeing truely closed: HOLDS the stripe of paper - You cannot pull it out "easily" ? Greetings Rolf

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#24 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Some progress today sortof, hopefully you can help me understand what this means, rolf_martin_062

As you asked, I tested the outhole switch, it is definitely open when the ball is not in the outhole.
But I managed to recreate when the ball is kicked out from outhole, and when not.

These are the scenarios I tried:

1. Ball count unit not in zero position.
- I press credit Button => Credit Relay energizes, nothing more happens
- I manually press the coin relay which energizes => scores are reset, nothing more happens
- I manually activate the outhole relay => score motor moves for some seconds, then nothing.

2. Ball count unit in reset/zero position
- Press credit Button => Credit Relay energizes, nothing more happens
- I manually press the coin relay which pulls in => scores are reset and the outhole kicker solenoid activates

3. Just to test I made the outhole kicker switch always closed, and when I did the same as above the outhole kicker repeatedly kicked, while score motor kept running. This was logical, since the outhole switch never got open. After this I adjusted back to Normally Open.

So, this leads me to suspect that something is wrong maybe with the ball count unit switch? Or that it is not being reset as it should.
Since when I manually push the coin relay, it resets and kicks out the ball if the ball count unit is in zero position, but if it is in any other position it wont kick out the ball.

I attached the a drawing of the two states the ball count unit switch is and the wire colors attached to the different switch blades.
Its mostly conceptual, as two if the switchblades are in really being bent by the plastic cog, which moves it from zero to stepup position.

So, I believe it is a small step in the right direction at least

ball count unit switch (resized).png

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#25 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Morten
You make observations*** of great value - post-24, Scenario-2: Having the Ball-Count-Unit in Reset-Position (means: Ball One, means Position-Zero) You can start a game by pressing the armature on Coin-Relay - pin resets AND the Outhole-Kicker fires, great. So the "Outhole-Switch is good".
But we get a new question --- WHY does Your pin is sometimes with "Ball-Count-Unit in Position-Zero" - and why sometimes in "Position-1,2,3,4,5 (non-Zero)" AND WHY does the pin starting-up (as You press the armature of the Coin-Relay) - WHY does the pin starting-up NOT reset the Ball-Count-Unit to Position-Zero ???
Every time You start a new (One-Player) Game: The Ball-Count-Unit MUST be resetted to Position-Zero.

The JPG You show in post-24 shows: Switches on Ball-Count-Unit work "as should".

BEFORE You do a new test - please: Toggle-off the main power switch - then toggle-on again - here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2085&picno=1974 in the lower right corner I see lighted "Game Over" --- You toggle-off and You toggle-on - question: Do You see the "Game Over Light in the Backglass" ? Please write about.
When You have the main power cord unplugged: Manually step the Ball-Count-Unit to position-2 or position-3 - then plug-in, toggle-on - press the armature of the Coin-Relay - question: Does the Ball-Count-Unit reset to position-Zero ? IT MUST. If it does not: We must fix this first.

Your observations*** - the two bladed switch on Ball-Count-Unit does not really interest us. The manufacturers mounted this switch for: In an arcade-room a man having lot of money starts a new game - plays the first ball - looses the ball having only made very few points, pin steps to second ball --- the man then says: " I do not want to play the rest of the balls - I have enough money - I START a NEW game right away ...

Of interest is the three bladed switch - see encircled red - beeing in Position-Zero: This switch on the Ball-Count-Unit MAKES the Game-Over-Relay LATCH. And we need the Game-Over-Relay latched so the Outhole-Relay HAS connection so it can pull-in.

So I reapeat and ask again - BEFORE You do a new test - please: Toggle-off the main power switch - then toggle-on again.
When You have the main power cord unplugged: Manually step the Ball-Count-Unit to position-2 or position-3 - then plug-in, toggle-on press the armature of the Coin-Relay - question: Does the Ball-Count-Unit RESET ??? to position-Zero ? IT MUST. If it does not: We must fix this first. Greetings Rolf

0Sea-Ray-Work-08 (resized).jpg

0

#26 6 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,246

Older games often have solidified grease in their stepper unit shafts. You can test that with the game unplugged by carefully moving and releasing each stepper unit's solenoid with your fingers.

0

#27 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Just informing that i will continue the troubleshooting on wednesday and report back! been a busy weekend.

0

#28 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Sorry for the delay rolf_martin_062 , crazy week and was attending Dutch Pinball Masters the whole weekend
Now, back to the troubleshooting:

I managed to do what you suggested before I left;

1. When toggling the power on, the "game over" lights up.

2. I turned the game OFF, manually stepped the ball count unit to position 2 or 3.
Then powered on the machine, and repeated earlier steps (pressed credit button, then manually pressed coin relay).
It did NOT reset the ball count unit.

Is it of any importance that I pressed the credit button before the coin relay, should I only toggle-game on with left flipperbutton and then manually push the coin relay?

The zero position stepper works good when I manually push it, so it does not seem to be an issue with the mechanical function.

0

#29 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Morten
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sea-ray-start-routine-is-off#post-3747369 --- please check that "Make and Brake Switch on the Reset-Relay". Greetings Rolf

It is a bit of a "ceremony" --- we toggle-on the pin - then press the left flipper button (it simply is such a nice feature).

Gottlieb uses the term "S-Start-Relay" --- Williams and Bally call it Coin-Relay - but Start-Relay would / is "better term". It starts the startup-procedure - makes the Score-Motor run, makes the Reset-Relay pull-in --- then the Reset-Relay has the lead and the Coin-Relay says "I have done my work - I stop / quit pulling".

Gottliebs S-Start-Relay and Williams / Bally Coin-Relay can be made pulling when the pin is set for "ONE Coin thrown in into a Coin-Chute" shall "start a game" --- the relay is made pulling direct.

When we press the Credit-Button: BEFORE the Start-Relay / Coin-Relay is made pulling-in: The Credit-Wheel must be made stepping down one step --- this is made by activating the CREDIT-Relay. Immediately after the Credit-Relay is pulling-in: The pulling Credit-Relay closes a switch (on the Credit-Relay) to make the Start-Relay / Coin-Relay pull-in ...

Try and what does make the pin start: Good for the moment. Try "pressing the armature of 'Credit-Relay' " --- does this makes the pin to start a game ? Greetings Rolf

0

#30 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi Morten
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sea-ray-start-routine-is-off#post-3747369 --- please check that "Make and Brake Switch on the Reset-Relay". Greetings Rolf

Thanks for the link, I have now checked the "Make and Break" switch on reset relay. The switches "maked and breaked" when they should, as far as I can see. I even adjusted two of them to be absoutely sure they made contact. Unfortunately, when manually activating the reset relay this does not reset the ball count unit. I have attached some photos and an illustration of what it looks like.

So, It seems something hindering the current to flow from the closed switch and into the ball reset coil :/
This is really a mystery.
----

Besides this, what makes the pin start? Well, I have to manually set the ball count unit to zero position, then I press credit button, then manually activate the coin relay. Then the pin will "start" by resetting scores reels (if not in zero position) and score motor and a ball is kicked into plunger lane. So same behaviour as before.

One thing I noticed, dont know if it is of importance: I have "modded" my game to free play, but it currently show 2 credit on the credit wheel. When I press the credit button, the credit wheel is not activated to count down to 1 credit. Is this correct when on free play, or is it a broken connection here also?

Sorry that it took some time to get back to you.
Lastly I will post a photo of the machine with new Leds. It looks great..just hope I can play it soon.
Thanks.

sr_make2 (resized).jpg
sr_break2 (resized).jpg
sr_wires2 (resized).jpg
sr_reset coil2 (resized).jpg
sr_ledfront (resized).jpg

0

#31 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Morten
another post to come about troubleshooting --- this one is only theory. In post-30 You ask "what makes the pin start".

Your pin has a Credit-Relay, has a Coin-Relay, has a Reset-Relay --- why not more relays ? Why not less relays ?
The schematics shows "Your pin most likely has a Coin-Chute for a small / little Coin and there is an Adjustment-Plug that can be set to "ONE Coin - ONE Play". You throw-in such a Coin and (only / just) the Coin-Relay gets active --- a better name for that relay would be "Start-Relay" - but lets always use the Williams term "Coin-Relay".

There is a big difference if we AAA "Start a completely new One-Player / First-Player Game" or if we BBB start for the second player. When its AAA then the pin must reset the Score-Drums - must reset playfield-stuff - maybe must reset the Bonus-Counter. When its BBB: ALL the resetting stuff has been done before (when we started for first player) --- when its BBB: Little to do.
Thats why the manufacturer made the Reset-Relay. When its AAA: The Coin-Relay (better name would be Start-Relay) does a bit of work - then calls the Reset-Relay "Hey Reset-Relay take over and manage the resetting". When its BBB: The Coin-Relay says "no need to call" and does not call the Reset-Relay.

Credit-Relay ? When we throw-in a Coin and a game is started right away: Credit-Relay is not involved. Most-likely Your pin has another Coin-Chute --- throwing in a coin does add credits to the Credit-Wheel - also called Replay-Wheel / Credit-Counter / Replay-Counter or ...-Unit.
You have credits and You press the Replay-Button / Credit-Button on the front of the pin: NOW, this makes the Credit-Relay pull-in to handle "subtracting a credit on / off the Credit-Wheel". Immediately afterwards the Credit-Relay makes the Coin-Relay pull in etc. etc.

In the 1960/70ies in the arcade-rooms nobody had acces to the inside of the pin, so the manufacturers simply sneaked in another switch "closed when there are credits on the Credit-Wheel / open when there are no credits". You press the Replay-Button - a switch closes --- IF (if) the other switch is also closed: Credit-Relay gets current so it pulls-in.
There is a little rod on the Credit-Wheel --- when stepping down: the rod comes closer and closer to a switch - and stepping from ONE down to ZERO: The rod opens this switch.
We now own the pin and have access to the inside of the pin - we set the pin for "FREE PLAY" --- we simply cheat - we manipulate this switch (bending a blade or better: connecting the solder-lugs) - "Switch is (electrically) always closed - is closed when there are no credits on the Credit-Wheel". So pressing the Replay-Button makes the Coin-Relay pull-in - it calls the Credit-Wheel "Hey, step down" --- the Coil on the Credit-Wheel pulls --- but its mechanically not possible to step below Zero. And the mechanical stuff gets not damaged by this attempt "stepping below zero".

I simplified a bit "little to do / no need to call / / /" --- there are switches on the Ball-Count-Unit and the Game-Over-Relay is involved --- lets try to fix the pin and AFTER the fixing: Have another, closer look at the "start of a game". Greetings Rolf

0

#32 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Morten
troubleshooting --- I would like to know "does the RESET-Coil on Ball-Count-Unit fire when we force connection on the 'returning side to transformer-lug-YELLOW' ?"

Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power-cord (Safety Reasons - Your pin has 48 VAC). Clip-on a Jumper-Wire at the coil "side wire-of-color-gray-black" is soldered-on. Take the other end near the transformer and lay the gator-clip of the Jumper-Wire NEAR - lay it on wood - not touching metal.

Plug-in, toggle-on, "start a game" --- pin idles. Carefully grab the Jumper-Wire on the insulated wire and tip-on the gator-clip onto "Transformer-Lug-Yellow (two muddy-brownish-yellowish wires are soldered-on)" --- question: Does the coil fire ?

If "No": Toggle-off, unplug the main power-cord ---establish another Jumper-Wire connecting "Coil side wire-black" to 48-VAC-Fuse SIDE WIRE-BLACK !!! (we want the fuse in the circuitry wiring).
Plug-in, toggle-on, "start a game" --- pin idles. Carefully grab the (my green Jumper-Wire in my JPG) Jumper-Wire on the insulated wire and tip-on the gator-clip onto "Transformer-Lug-Yellow)" --- question: Does the coil fire ? Greetings Rolf

0Sea-Ray-Work-10 (resized).jpg

0

#33 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

I will try to test this during this week, I just am slightly sceptical/nervous about the jumper wire clipping on to the transformator lug...cause one slip or skin touching the metal on the alligator clip and its electrocution? :O

0

#34 6 years ago

???

Paul_T

Inactive member

Unknown

6y 6,250 7

@edenecho, what happened? Did you resolve the startup issue?

I just joined pinside because I'm a new owner of my first pinball machine, also a Sea Ray. I'm having a similar issue and read through the thread to see if it might help me fix mine. I see the last post before yours was where rolf_martin_062 had suggested a test which included "unplug the main power-cord (Safety Reasons - Your pin has 48 VAC)." I hope you are still around!
Thanks,
Paul

0

#35 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Quoted from Paul_T:
edenecho, what happened? Did you resolve the startup issue?
I just joined pinside because I'm a new owner of my first pinball machine, also a Sea Ray. I'm having a similar issue and read through the thread to see if it might help me fix mine. I see the last post before yours was where rolf_martin_062 had suggested a test which included "unplug the main power-cord (Safety Reasons - Your pin has 48 VAC)." I hope you are still around!
Thanks,
Paul

Hi Paul,
Had to take a break from sea ray before summer due to my wife having some serious illness, brain surgery etc. So been some rough months, but better now.

Actually, coincidentally, a friend made me some long jumper cables earlier today, so after pinball european championship this coming weekend i will continue where I left of, and will continue with the troubleshooting as instructed by Rolf.

I had no intentions of leaving this thread open without resolving this, as I find it very annoying when stumbling on other threads with similar issues and then the thread suddenly stops without any answer or solving of the issue

0

#36 6 years ago

???

Paul_T

Inactive member

Unknown

6y 6,250 7

Hi Edenecho, happy to hear things are getting better for your wife.

I'm still trying to sort out my Sea Ray's behaviors. I'm new to this so still learning how to do follow diagnostic procedures to isolate which components are misbehaving. I've been a software developer for 25+ years so this "analog" world is fascinating new world to me.
Paul

0

#37 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Paul
xsvtoys made an gorgeous topic https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-schematic-fully-described-from-beginning-to-end-bally-bon-voyage about his "Bally Bon Voyage" --- ipdb http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=343 has the manual and the schematics. When You study xsvtoys topic You will understand Bally-ONE-Player-pin - well an "Add-A-Ball" pin. (((The stepping through the balls is different from a Replay-Pin)))
Your Sea Ray is an REPLAY pin - and it is an TWO-Player-pin - but the Bon Voyage topic is very good.

SteveFury made an very good video "starting a Williams FOUR-Player-Pin" - Williams and Bally use the same logic --- read here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-a-go-go-lock-relay-not-locking#post-3612269 --- AND follow the link and watch the video.

"Problems on YOUR Sea Ray" --- a NEW topic is attractive for pinsiders wanting to help --- want to start Your own topic ? Greetings Rolf

0

#38 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Hello again from the increasingly colder north regions of Norway!
As mentioned in some posts above, sorry for the long delay rolf_martin_062 and the others who have contributed in this thread.
I had to take a break from this due to family health issues.

But yesterday I took a session, and read myself up on my own thread to get back into Sea Ray mind state. First I made sure I still had the issues as before, which of course it was. Pressing in the start button, and credit relay pulls in but nothing more. Manually energizing the coin relay starts a new game IF the ball count unit is in zero position. If its not in zero position nothing happens, and as rolf_martin_062 asked me to first troubleshoot and fix: why the ball count unit is not reset.

So, the following is a short description of the events yesterday:

1. I take the jumper cables my friend made for me, it is of a type that I press down in a plastic end, and a metal hook is exposed, which then is to be hooked upon the desired spot. I take the one end and make sure its really hooked on the Grey-black wire lug on the ball count reset solenoid.

2. I then put the other jumper cable end on the wooden cabinet bottom, near the transformer, then we plug in power cabel, turn the game on with left flipper.
My friend then says; hey, let us try a thing. He then puts the loose jumper cable out of the cabinet and just down on the floor. He press the start button.

and everything friggin works. He then became depressed since we are trying to learn EM repairs and this made absolutely no sense at all.

Our best guess is that on the ball count reset solenoid, lug with GREY-BLACK wire, that the solder somehow have become cold/weak and there was no connection. But when I took the metal hook on the jumper wire end and kinda pushed it through to make sure it had a good hold, somehow "fixed" it by making good contact again. Is this something you can agree with rolf_martin_062 ?

So, really: We played several two player games, and (almost everything) worked as expected. I am.... flabbergasted.

------------

The only thing I need to fix is something that I encountered earlier in the process. After playing for a while, the 00-90 match unit stops, which "locks" the lit waterfall features and the bubble points beneath the thumper bumpers. I took a closer look at the unit when this happened and it seems like a mechanical issue.

It seems at some point, the plunger is not pulled back to the zero position. When I press the metal arm back it works fine again.
I think maybe it might be the spring which is not strong enough, and needs to be replaced? Or can it be something else that needs tuning/cleaning?

See below pictures, first is when it is in zero position, and the second is a photo after it has stopped moving.

20171104_223005 (resized).jpg

20171104_223136 (resized).jpg

0

#39 6 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Edenecho
I gladly accept when fate is nice and friendly - a fault dissapears forever. Yes, a solderpoint can go bad - and fumbling on it (clipping-on a Jumper-Wire - slightly move / bend) may bring back connection. May want use an solder-iron and (re) solder ?

Your No-Match-Unit sticks sometimes --- it is a continuous stepper beeing stepped and stepped - around and around - forward, forward. The coil pulling-in pulls the plunger and with an arm moved "tooth on the moved arm" gets behind "tooth on the cam / wheel" --- the coil then looses current, let go and the retaining spring moves back the arm and the plunger. THIS spring makes the step (tooth on tooth makes the cam turn).

Here http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK in the Bally 1973 Parts Catalog http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1973/index.html here http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1973/index.html#/92/ we see the unit. We may click on the magnifying button (bottom of the picture to the left) and we see http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1973/index.html#/92/zoomed --- we can move up and down in the picture.
I made snapshots of it and put together - see the first JPG.

I do not have Bally pins - I never did on a Williams pin what I now suggest. You may try the suggestion - maybe it helps - maybe not.
If "No Luck" - I then suggest: Start a new topic with an good title (an new topic is more interesting than a revived old one) just about this No-Match-Unit problem. (((May show the (shown above) links again - may use the JPGs I show here - use the good pictures You have shown here)))
Again: On this specific Bally-No-Match-Unit-Problem the only thing I can do / help: Showing (second) JPG - my idea of "kind of tightening for a try" using a lace around the middle of the spring - pulling aside --- this will put more tension into the "straight orange direction" --- and when "more tension" fixes the problem: You then may want to shorten the spring a bit which also puts-in more tension in the spring. Greetings Rolf

0Match-Unit-small (resized).jpg

0Match-Unit-Work (resized).jpg

0

#40 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Thanks, I made the spring shorter sortof, and it seems to work flawless now!

I also marked this topic as solved, as it is finally working. Long way to go for ending up with discovering a cold solder/bad connection, but lots of new knowledge aquired

0

#41 6 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

It is with a deep heart I have to reopen this thread. The game has been working nice for a while, then suddenly one day i power it on and press the credit button, nothing happens. After more troubleshooting it seems to be the exact same problem as last time. It was then miraculously solved by hooking on end of a jumper cable onto the grey black lug on the ball count reset coil.

It was the same stuff now, if the ball count was 2-5, then manually pressing the credit relay in the cabinett would not do anything, but if the ball count was on 1, then pressing the credit relay would start the game. So, basically, the problem seems to still be that the ball count unit wont reset.

The first thing I did was resolder the grey-black wire onto the coil lug. Unfortunately, to no avail. My next step will be to do what Rolf initially told me to do, jumper that lug and the yellow lug on the transformer...

0

#42 5 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

@rolf_martin_062

It has been one hell of a year. I lost my wife to cancer in may, and life has been very hard since the beginning of this year.
I am slowly starting to regain my strength andfigure out this new life. It is slowly getting better.

So now I have decided to continue this Sea Ray project, which has been on halt because of the above issues.
Is it okay for you to continue help me with the trobleshooting here @rolf_martin_062 , even thoughits been such a long time?
I can sum up the current status in some lines if you dont remember and dont want to read through this whole thread again.

I am quite sure I tried the jumper cable-suggestion in post #32 and the ball count unit did not reset, but I will try again to be sure in the next days.

0

#43 5 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Edenecho
I am in consternation, sad to read about Your wife. Consternation, commiseration, compation are english words (translations from a dictionary - I am german speaking) - my deepest condolences.

Please start an new topic on Sea Ray - give a description on the first fault showing up - we look at it - hopefully can fix it - then look at next fault and so on. Greetings Rolf

0

#44 5 years ago

OP

MAS

Edenecho

KristianiaFlipperselskap

10y 81,550 1,819 18

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi Edenecho
I am in consternation, sad to read about Your wife. Consternation, commiseration, compation are english words (translations from a dictionary - I am german speaking) - my deepest condolences.
Please start an new topic on Sea Ray - give a description on the first fault showing up - we look at it - hopefully can fix it - then look at next fault and so on. Greetings Rolf

Thanks you, I appreciate your condolences.
I have startet a new topic, and summed up the current state and issues in this new thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-sea-ray-coin-relay-not-energized-ball-count-unit-reset-issue