Wild Life
Gottlieb, 1972I am having trouble with this Wild Life starting up.
First thing is the Game Over relay locks on after reset.
Looking at the schematic it looks like the Hold relay contact is the issue?
Also the schematic shows QB relay (GAME OVER) having the contacts...... 1A 3B 1C
Looking at the relay (not energized) it looks like................ 0A 2B 2C correct?
Is the schematic wrong or am I looking at the contacts wrong?
Thx
Quoted from mrbanjo:First thing is the Game Over relay locks on after reset.
Looking at the schematic it looks like the Hold relay contact is the issue?
First off, thanks for posting a nice clean scan. That makes it much easier to follow along or to help debug.
The switch you circled certainly seems to be the most likely cause.
/Mark
Checked SB1 and SB2 many times (have the main board on the workbench)
F is the 00-90 unit relay
Machine did play after reassembly but had to manually engage start relay to play a game
wire broke in coin door fixed the credit and coin issue
All of a sudden score motor either runs for many turns before bank relay shuts off score motor OR Bank relay energizes many times over and over and over
bonus stepper over and over then finally bank relay engages and stops SM.
NO score reel reset although I have them at zero now
NO player unit action at all NO ball number on back glass
Game over relay engaged game over on back glass
will check the HOLD relay and the START relay tonite to see if they are energized
Thx everyone!
I turn on machine, instantly QB energizes, ZB (first ball) energizes on relay bank
Nothing else in machine energized
I push credit button....... score motor cycles relay bank relay energizes, score motor stops QB.ZB still energized
you can actually hear the 2 relays hum for a second as the reset bar actuates because these relay's are staying energized.
R (Hold relay) not holding til I manually activate it
What would supply power to the QB (Game over)relay to keep it energized if the "R" Hold relay blocked off? A short?
I don't see how it would get power other than thru R on schematics
Had you checked the slam switch (coin door) and bounce switch on bottom board?
Be careful, "110V" Also, can you take a somewhat clear pic of the entire schematic?
Yes I jumpered them to be sure.
Cant figure out what is supplying power to the QB (game over relay) shown in schematic above.
I checked to see if a shorted QB coil would allow it to get its own power from the 24V side?
All other coils in the reset bank check at 3.4 ohms
QB checks at 0.4 ohms Is this the issue? Makes sense why it constantly has power to it?
The G.O. Relay doesn't remain energize regardless what position R is in, right?
In one of the positions, R does break the circuit, correct?
I have to find a similar schematic. Something doesn't look right..
Quoted from mrbanjo:Cant figure out what is supplying power to the QB (game over relay) shown in schematic above.
I checked to see if a shorted QB coil would allow it to get its own power from the 24V side?
All other coils in the reset bank check at 3.4 ohms
QB checks at 0.4 ohms Is this the issue? Makes sense why it constantly has power to it?
What the .4 ohms is probably indicating is the resistance of the short through the rest of the circuit from one solder lug to the other (through the switches, fuse, transformer, etc.) not the resistance through the coil itself. If you unsolder one lug of the coil (which removes the rest of the circuit) and measure across the lugs again you'd probably see something closer to the other coils.
/Mark
No the QB (Game Over)stays energized with r relay in or out.............. has no effect.
Mark: 6 coils are all the same in reset bank, thought it was weird the one I'm having issues with is not reading 3.4 ohms as the other 5 are
Quoted from mrbanjo:R (Hold relay) not holding til I manually activate it
Okay, so when you manual push in the R Relay it holds, right? If so, a switch in the S (start relay)
isn't initiating the juice to that circuit. Not the G.O. always energized problem, but it would be nice if
we could get the R to energize at start up. When the bottom board is back in the machine it can
be a little tough to check those Bank Relay switches, and I know you have checked them already,
but there's a dirty/not adjusted contact in that S Relay stack switches, or bad solder tap, bad wire (?).
Using the schematic, maybe doing a little jumping will tell the story. This is assuming that the R
relay holds on its own after manually pushed in which I believe you have stated that it did..
You probably want to go right to the G.O. problem, but this will need to be fixed any how..
Progress! Ran out to garage and foundThe R (Hold relay) had a wire down in there that came unsoldered! I put a jumper on it for now.
When I fired it up, the SM ran and reset the bank and Game Over relay released!
I'll put it back together went I get home and see where it is at. This machine played a few weeks ago
Thx for getting me in the right direction!
>What would supply power to the QB (Game over)relay to keep it energized if the "R" Hold relay blocked off?
The clue is that its name has a B at the end. Those relays (QB, ZB, SB, DB, etc.) are mechanical lock-in relays. Once the coil gets an impulse, it stays in the "energized" position ("tripped" is more accurate) until the bank reset occurs. With that in mind, you can look at all the pathways to the QB coil to see the alternative ways of tripping it.
.................David Marston
Quoted from mrbanjo:Ran out to garage and foundThe R (Hold relay) had a wire down in there that came unsoldered! I put a jumper on it for now.
Quoted from mrbanjo:When I fired it up, the SM ran and reset the bank and Game Over relay released!
Good job, and good to hear! Let us know if all is well.. (T)
Quoted from mrbanjo:.I did not know that. You really learn something everyday on here
Oh, you weren't manually resetting the G.O. Relay after you manually reset the R Relay?
I thought the G.O. Relay would buss even after you energized the R Relay. That explains
how one fix cured the other..
Quoted from mrbanjo:Initially the GO relay had constant power to it so it was wanting to pull back in.
Yes, but probably the G.O. Relay refused to reset only when the R Relay wasn't in the hold position,
yet it is possible that loose wire was touching another to keep the G.O. Relay to have juice, but
either way, I think you found the source that fixed both G.O. and R Relay problems.
I think you're in good shape..
Well game does start up now but:
Doesn't kick a ball out to shooter lane
and when ever SM rotates 1/3 from a score the Game over pulls in
If you credit a game and then credit again for player 2 the Game over pulls in
Isnt ZB the 1st ball in play relay suppose to pull in on ball one? If so its not
But score reels reset ,PU works, flippers work........closer than I was!
So basically after the game resets..........anything action in the game that creates the score motor to move, energizes the Game over relay
there is something in common here that is supplying power to the QB relay when it shouldn't.
Quoted from mrbanjo:So maybe "R" relay is dropping out during ANY SM 120 degree rotation?
You should be able to see this happen. Give the score motor a nudge to get it started then watch the R relay. Does it drop out or hold?
Quoted from mrbanjo:So basically after the game resets..........anything action in the game that creates the score motor to move, energizes the Game over relay
The schematic in your base note (reply #1) shows two paths to the QB relay, one through the R relay that you circled, and another through a score motor switch at position 3C, and switches on the O and XB relays. If you block the score motor switch at 3C with a folded piece of paper, does the QB relay still fire when the score motor turns?
/Mark
Thanks............Ill try that Mark and let you know.
I am also thinkin today that: I found a wire loose on R relay....couldn't really see any trace for sure of what tab it was soldered to
I attached it to where I thought it came from and maybe it was wrong and causing this issue.
I will check the schematic if colors have not faded too bad
The strange thing is this game was playing......then not, and a wire came off...weird
Ill go out and hit it again
Ok Mark....the score motor alone will pull in the QB (Game Over relay) with a 120 degree turn by hand
Put a paper in 3C and does not pull in
Put playfield back in and powered up with the paper still in and for the most part seems to work, kicks ball to lane
played ball one, kicked ball 2 then after that jumped to ball 5 but anyway.............
Cleaned the contacts 3C (for the 8th time) but adjusted the gap a little closer was getting a pretty good blue spark but.......
with paper out it still pulls the QB in
Any idea what is doin this?
Quoted from mrbanjo:I attached it to where I thought it came from and maybe it was wrong and causing this issue.
That could very possibly be the case. Perhaps if you start another thread with the Title of the game (Wild Life)
in the title, you'll be able to get help from others that have the game..
Quoted from mrbanjo:Ok Mark....the score motor alone will pull in the QB (Game Over relay) with a 120 degree turn by hand
Put a paper in 3C and does not pull in
Ok, so we know what circuit fires QB when it shouldn't (the circuit with the score motor switch 3C in it) but we don't know why. The 3C switch is behaving just as it should. It's supposed to close once each time the score motor turns through one 120 degree cycle.
So somewhere there's a short from the brown-white wire on the score motor 3C switch back to the transformer. It could be through a few switches (O and XB relays, etc.) but it seems more likely that there's a bent solder tab, solder blob or other kind of unintended short.
/Mark
OK.....I can't seem to find anything on this. Had the main board on the workbench
and examined every tab and connection on every componet on the main board. Did not see any solder blobs, wires touching
Checked voltage across the problem SM switch (which I am sure is 3C) and has 29VAC and should not have any voltage
Any checks I can do to find where its getting juice?
Relay "O" is not even pulled in when SM does a 120 degree turn and "QB" trips.
So can we remove 3C wire that is hot and jump a new wire from "O" to 3C? (per schematic) see if that works?
Quoted from mrbanjo:Had the main board on the workbench and examined every tab and connection on every componet on the main board. Did not see any solder blobs, wires touching
Checked voltage across the problem SM switch (which I am sure is 3C) and has 29VAC and should not have any voltage
Any checks I can do to find where its getting juice?
Relay "O" is not even pulled in when SM does a 120 degree turn and "QB" trips.
So can we remove 3C wire that is hot and jump a new wire from "O" to 3C? (per schematic) see if that works?
Use the schematic in your base note as a reference. I'd unplug the game and clip one lead of your multimeter to the brown-white wire on the score motor 3C switch. That wire should only go to three other switches. Poke around with the other lead looking for continuity to anywhere else. Maybe start by checking for continuity on the far side of those other three switches but you may need to just beep out everything.
Replacing the wire from the 3C switch to the O relay switch won't help if the brown-white wire on the O relay switch is hot too.
/Mark
Try measuring resistance instead of continuity. You may be seeing paths through coils that you don't care about. Paths through coils have a resistance of 5-10 ohms or more. Shorts usually measure as an ohm or two tops. Some meters won't distinguish between these two on the continuity setting.
Still no luck on this one. Had the main board on the bench 4 times in the last day looking at everything
checking with meter, everything looks as it should. Other than the wire off at the hold relay, this thing worked fine couple weeks ago
so its weird.
I'm thinkin it has to be like Mark said....one side of the 3C is somehow getting voltage from the red/white transformer side
I have 29V across the 3C switch on the SM.
It would have to pass thru several switches to get it "O".....XB.....1A...or....etc that route
So what about removing the brn/white off 3C and "O" and run a temp jumper?
Anyone's thoughts?
Quoted from MarkG:Ok, so we know what circuit fires QB when it shouldn't (the circuit with the score motor switch 3C in it) but we don't know why. The 3C switch is behaving just as it should. It's supposed to close once each time the score motor turns through one 120 degree cycle.
So somewhere there's a short from the brown-white wire on the score motor 3C switch back to the transformer. It could be through a few switches (O and XB relays, etc.) but it seems more likely that there's a bent solder tab, solder blob or other kind of unintended short.
/Mark
I FINALLYgot it!!!!
Thanks so much Mark for your direction. You were right! finally after having the main board on the bench 8 times or more going over and over everything
for better than a week..... with the score motor pulled out of its 3 hair pin hinges on the bottom side.....in the 1B area was 2 tabs touching each other.
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Ottumwa, IA