(Topic ID: 171231)

Scared Stiff Right flipper problem No High Power


By alchy999

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 33 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by alchy999
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Scared Stiff R flipper (resized).png

#1 3 years ago

Hi just acquired a scared stiff. The right flipper was not working.

What I have done

Fuses were blown replaced these.
Tested Voltage on right flipper coil was 21v on all 3 tabs.
Tested tip36 q90 power driver and it was shorted.
Replaced Tip36 q90 and now when I turn the game on the right flipper is in the up (Hold) position. When i turn the power off after a few seconds the flipper lowers.
Suspected q92 Tip102 right flipper hold transistor. Showed shorted on 1 leg so I replaced it.

OK heres as far as I got. Flipper is no longer stuck up.
Voltage on right flipper coil tabs are now all 71 volts.
Right Flipper now works but not powerful like half power.
I detect it may be flipping on the low voltatge setting.
No more fuses being blown.

When in flipper test the power does nothing but the hold raises the flipper as normal.

Just to mention I unsoldered the wires to the right flipper coil and wired up the left flipper wires to it and it worked fine.

Could anyone please help me with this problem.

Thanks in advance.

Kindest regards David

#2 3 years ago

Bump anyone have any ideas?

#3 3 years ago

Usually under test, the Hold circuit is not strong enough to move the bat on it's own. You lift it by hand and the hold circuit then keeps it raised.

That's Fliptronics, right? Try swapping the flipper cabinet button opto boards left/right. Does problem move to other side or stay?

#4 3 years ago

Hi thanks for the reply. I shall try that tomorrow and report back to you and let you know whats happening.

Regards David

#5 3 years ago

I swapped them around it worked for 20 or so flips now its back to it normal slow flips.

Regards David

#6 3 years ago

Still unsolved. I am thinking now it must be on the driver board.

If I ground out the power Tip 36 nothing happens.

If I ground out the middle wire on coil (yellow wire) it works as normal.

Anyone?

#7 3 years ago

So swapping the cabinet switches resulted in *both* flippers working normally, then the *right* one went limp again?

Do you have 50VDC on all three lugs?

Reseat J212 on WPC board.

Reseat ribbon cable from WPC J211 to driver board J102 and J119/J120.

#8 3 years ago

I replaced all flipper opto's with new ones no change.

Checked all the molex you mentioned and reseated them many times no change

Here is a video of what is happening so you can see for yourself looks like a flipper mechanical binding but is not as i rebuilt them and the plunger moves nice and freely. The flipper gap is good too.

#9 3 years ago

OK. 50VDC on all three lugs when it flips weakly?

While it is flipping weakly, connect a clip lead jumper to the ground braid on the side of the cabinet. [CAUTION] Don't let the free end touch anything accidentally!

Quickly tap the free end to PDB J 120.12. It may spark a little, that's normal. Just don't have any naphtha fumes hanging around. Do you get a strong flip?

Now repeat that same test with the clip lead to WPC/CPU board J212.12. Do you get a strong flip?

I just watched the video again and the right flipper button is making a ka-click noise the left doesn't. Is there something weird going on with that cabinet button? It does sound/behave like a mechanical problem (slow return).

Scared Stiff R flipper (resized).png

#10 3 years ago

Hi I have 74v on all 3 lugs which is about right. There is no mechanical error.

I already done that test from yellow wire to ground middle coil lug. But i see you are verifying no break in the cable.

Ok I have done that test 120.12 to ground and the flipper flips strong same as the left one.

When I do the test 212.12 in attract mode to ground i get the callout as if someone is pressing the flipper.
When I do the test 212.12 in test mode it flips slow.

I have replaced the Tip36c Q90 and Q92 no broken traces that I can see and checked continuity to next soldered point.

Thank you for having the time to help me with this..

#11 3 years ago

Anyone else have some ideas please chip in

#12 3 years ago

You mention that you replaced "all optos". What did you use for replacements? These are special types and even some replacement boards being sold out there have the incorrect types on them and could cause these issues.

#13 3 years ago

The thing that is puzzling is that you swapped flipper cabinet buttons and recovered the failure temporarily. YET, you can ground the flipper cabinet switch and it still fails. I would swap those cabinet buttons again, just for clarity to see if they affect the symptom again.

If it recovers then goes weak again...

#14 3 years ago

Thanks for the ideas guys really boggling me this one.

I obtained these opto switches.

https://www.pinball.co.uk/shop/arabian-nights-pinball-machine-parts/flipper-opto-board-assembly-a-17316/

Willing to try any other tests you guys have. Is it possible the power transisitor q90 has a broken track somewhere?

Regards

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from alchy999:

Thanks for the ideas guys really boggling me this one.
I obtained these opto switches.
https://www.pinball.co.uk/shop/arabian-nights-pinball-machine-parts/flipper-opto-board-assembly-a-17316/
Willing to try any other tests you guys have. Is it possible the power transisitor q90 has a broken track somewhere?
Regards

Those boards you used are probably the problem.

The original optos used have inbuilt Schmidt trigger circuitry and are unobtainium now.

The very first replacement boards I made used standard optos as replacements (just like the ones you are using very likely) and these worked in 60% of cases BUT not in every machine. I had to throw out the first batch of 100 sets we made for this exact reason.

The issue is standard optos don't switch down hard enough and hover around 2V5 which is half rail for TTL and so the switching is unreliable. This can cause all sorts of weird results such as fluttering flippers, weak flippers, driver transistors blowing etc. In some cases they will work just fine.

If you look at the boards I currently make you will see I have added a buffer transistor after the opto to force the switched rail harder and this solved the problem totally.

Actually on "Pinball Bash" this topic was covered a few years back in detail and my board was mentioned as one that had solved this issue.

Replace the boards (or refit the originals) and your problem will very likely be resolved.

I wouldn't keep looking elsewhere for this problem until you have ruled out these replacement boards 100% AND trying them in another machine will NOT give you the answer. You can try measuring the voltage at the output of the flipper board when idle and also when the flipper button is pressed and tell us what you get.

Look at the meter voltages in bench testing pictures of the Type 1 flipper boards below (both boards use an identical circuit) and you will see what I am talking about with the output switching. Homepin boards are available from "Johns Arcade" in Australia and "Pinball Life" in the USA.

image_0005 (resized).jpg
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#16 3 years ago
Quoted from alchy999:

Willing to try any other tests you guys have. Is it possible the power transisitor q90 has a broken track somewhere?

You could 'ground' the metal tab of Q91 to trigger Q90.
If this activates the hi-power coil, it could indicate that Q91 is faulty.
If it doesn't activate the coil, a broken trace is a possibility.

#17 3 years ago

The picture below is from the SS manual and illustrates what I am talking about.

I have just found a set of these boards in the factory that I didn't know I had here. If you PM me your full name and address details I will get them off to you so you can try them.

Type2parts (resized).jpg

#18 3 years ago

Thanks guys all of you for your input. I will do all the tests today and get back to you all later.

Thanks again.

#19 3 years ago

Ok tests so far.

Flipper opto Switches indeed getting the 2.5v half rail on them.

Regarding grounding Q91 the flipper flips normally. I have checked both outside legs with ground on Diode test and they come up ok. around 400 to 600. I will probably change just to make sure.

Regards David

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from alchy999:

When in flipper test the power does nothing but the hold raises the flipper as normal.

Quoted from alchy999:

replaced the Tip36c Q90

After you replaced Q90, did you perform this test again and what was the outcome ?
Trying to find out this is a coil drive problem, an opto switch problem or both.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from alchy999:

Ok tests so far.
Flipper opto Switches indeed getting the 2.5v half rail on them.
Regarding grounding Q91 the flipper flips normally. I have checked both outside legs with ground on Diode test and they come up ok. around 400 to 600. I will probably change just to make sure.
Regards David

Getting 2V5 tells me the optos are not the correct type and therefore are not switching hard enough. Compare your results with my pics above. I wouldn't waste any more time looking further, I believe you have found the problem.

Your boards are packed and will be in tomorrows postal run.

#22 3 years ago

Thanks Homepin for the advice and the kind gesture of sending me some to try. Of course please send me a bill when I have tested them as I don't expect anything for nothing

Hi Leiden Both q90 and q92 are confirmed good. If you are talking about grounding them q90 does nothing and q92 flips the flipper slowly to hold position. Q91 flips the flipper normally.

Regards David

#23 3 years ago

I meant the test T.12 in the menu.
Grounding the transistors as you did gives the correct response. (Q90 nothing, Q91 normal flip and Q92 slow to hold)

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from alchy999:

Thanks Homepin for the advice and the kind gesture of sending me some to try. Of course please send me a bill when I have tested them as I don't expect anything for nothing
Hi Leiden Both q90 and q92 are confirmed good. If you are talking about grounding them q90 does nothing and q92 flips the flipper slowly to hold position. Q91 flips the flipper normally.
Regards David

You're very welcome. Happy for you to try them and confirm if they fix your problem. All I ask (if they work) is to cover the postage.

Otherwise it's my risk.

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

I meant the test T.12 in the menu.
Grounding the transistors as you did gives the correct response. (Q90 nothing, Q91 normal flip and Q92 slow to hold)

Zaza - I have seen this issue before. There are a lot of aftermarket boards being made and sold that use ordinary optos and they work in some machines but not in others for the reasons I outlined above.

I was very lucky that this issue was brought to my attention before I sold too many and I was able to redesign them and replace those I had already sold.

#26 3 years ago

Just changed out the right flipper opto switch and it worked perfect for 38 flips then slow again. tried all combo's of old opto and new ones with left and right flipper still slow.

It seems after a couple of days of not turning the machine on it works again for about 30 flips. So may have worked without changing the right opto switch.

This is the part that worries me but happy to do more tests until these correct opto switches come from Homepin that he kindly sent me .

Not changed out Q91 yet although it shows good on diode test.

Regards David

#27 3 years ago

Hi Leiden thanks for your input.

Test12 flipper test all work except the right power does nothing same as before

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from alchy999:

the right power does nothing

Quoted from zaza:

Trying to find out this is a coil drive problem, an opto switch problem or both.

It looks like it is the 3rd option

#29 3 years ago

Hi today thanks to the very kind gesture of Homepin I received his package not only included the Flipper Opto's but some nice toys. Thank You very Much!

I plugged them in and they lit up as they should do but still the same problem. Before I replaced them I got the usual 30 or so good flips out of the right flipper before doing the same thing again. It seems when something is warmed up on the cpu or driver board it fails.

I think the answer is to send my boards to a friend I have to check out first.

I will then update you with any known problems so it may help someone else in the future.

Homepin I am very grateful for your help. Although it didn't solve this issue please send me a bill for the time and post and cost as I would like to square that up with you by paypal.

Kindest regards David

#30 3 years ago

I'm wondering if your coil is getting hot and causing binding to occur.

#31 3 years ago

Hi i have felt the coil after and it is not even warm. The machine has to be off for at least 24 hours before i get the 30 or so good flips out of the right flipper. Thanks for the suggestion though

#32 3 years ago

Glad you received them and sorry they didn't fix your problem

Sure is time to have the boards looked at, maybe by someone who does a lot of repairs????

The only other things I could suggest are accurately measure the 50V supply to the coils (74V) before and after the problem shows and make sure it doesn't change, not even by a few volts. After that maybe replace the fliptronics board with a new board if you haven't already?

Don't worry about the boards cost, that was the deal, no fix, no pay

Please keep us posted with your progress.

1 month later
#33 3 years ago

Hi guys just a follow up and problem is now solved.

I sent my boards off to Bob of Pinball toys to try and detect a fault on the driver board. He put it in another wpc 95 machine and indeed it done the same thing pointing at a problem on the driver board.

After a long investigation it was found D99 one of the diodes on the driver board had failed. It was replaced along with new transistors along with that circuitry in case it had stressed them out. So all working and extremely delighted that I can now play it.

This may help someone else with similar problems.

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions.

Kindest regards David

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