(Topic ID: 288729)

scanner alternative to HP

By mark532011

3 years ago


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    #1 3 years ago

    The HP scanner is a terrific tool but it is really difficult to find. So I set about to cobble something together that would work pretty well.

    I started with the Epson Perfection V39. The reason is that the top cover comes off, so it can be laid on top of the playfield. Unfortunately the resulting image is blurry. Its ok for some uses but not for precision work. Take a look at the pic below at full resolution.300 dpi scan with no scanner modifications300 dpi scan with no scanner modifications

    .

    The reason its blurry is there is a ridge of plastic around the glass holding it all together. Which means that a piece of paper lays right on the glass while the playfield is about 1/8" away from the glass due to the plastic ridge. That 1/8" of an inche might not seem like much but with the tiny focus range on scanners its enough to make it out of focus.

    I took the scanner apart, pulling the plastic molding off on the sides and back. You can't pull the front (where the buttons are) plastic off or it won't work. On my V39 the side moldings had sticky tape that had to be carefully pried away.pulling off the side bezelspulling off the side bezels

    Without the plastic bezel, the glass falls off so I taped it on. You have to be careful to place it exactly on the tiny supports right, but once done it works great.taping the glass ontaping the glass on

    By simply laying the scanner on the playfield I am able to get decent scans which can then be stitched together later. scanning the playfieldscanning the playfield

    This is a 300dpi scan and a 600dpi scan. Zoom in to 100% and you can see they are not perfect but pretty good300dpi scan300dpi scan600dpi scan600dpi scan

    so if you need a scanner, the modified V39 might be a good cheap alternative for you

    #2 3 years ago

    Just one thing to keep in mind--the same offset that's making it blurry is also going to affect sizing slightly.

    With an HP 4670, it's pretty much a dead on 1 : 1 scan. With this solution, you're going to have to play with the size a little bit, especially if the goal is to redraw artwork and make waterslide decals.

    #3 3 years ago

    with the plastic removed it comes out sharp and seems pretty right-on. At least the multiple scans stitch together well. here is a piece of the scan at 600dpi.

    Ice Revue cropped (resized).jpgIce Revue cropped (resized).jpg
    4 weeks later
    #4 3 years ago

    Out of interest, what software will you be using to restore the artwork?

    #5 3 years ago

    I have an old copy of photoshop cs2 that I use. I am no expert but can use the circles, lines and rectangles to recreate the artwork which I then send to the cameo for cutting out paint masking. I have done this process on a couple of machines now and it works well

    #6 3 years ago

    Things are coming along nicely, part of the struggle is to reconcile if the original was a mistake in the painting or the artist's intent - such as the words "HOLE VALUE" in yellow not being centered (I retained its exact position,) and also to reflect the realities of the limits of my Cameo's ability. Here are a couple of screenshots of the work in progress. Note I originally used the "Sucrose" font for the word "POINTS" but it is a little thicker than the original so I am going to go back and trace each letter instead of using a font.

    Screenshot 2021-04-03 200900 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-04-03 200900 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-04-03 200832 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-04-03 200832 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-04-03 200142 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-04-03 200142 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-04-03 200305 (resized).pngScreenshot 2021-04-03 200305 (resized).png
    #7 3 years ago

    Great work! I would centre the words 'hole value' - I think that's just slackness on the part of the original artist.

    I doubt it would have made any difference to people back then. It's only us being perfectionists that even see things like this.

    #8 3 years ago

    Thanks for the info. I'm doing a similar playfield resto on an WMS Apollo, using Macromedia/Adobe Fireworks. One problem I get is to get the colours to match. They look ok on screen, but when printed ( using a good quality ink-jet printer set for photo quality on waterslide decal paper), they print off very different. For example, I've ended up just doing all the red sections, so I get an even match.
    How do you overcome this?

    #9 3 years ago
    Quoted from Vintage-Pinball:

    using Macromedia/Adobe Fireworks

    Using fireworks is the start of your problem.. that program is designed specifically for creating graphics for web / on screen use only, which is RGB. Your colors will never match up to the print if designed in RGB.

    Does fireworks even offer a cmyk (print)color profile?

    Even when using appropriate software, color profiles, calibrated monitors and professional level printers, color matching/ accuracy is still one of the largest hurdles for digital printing. Every printer in the world is going to print the colors of the same graphic slightly differently.

    That is why the Pantone color system exists, which has an exact and universal formula for each color. Pantone allows you to have reliable and repeatable color anywhere you print in the world.

    I use a Pantone bridge color swatch kit, which gives an approximate cmyk value for the Pantone colors. Put the swatches next to your playfield and find the closest match, and then use that cmyk value in the software. It’s helpful for getting in the ballpark, but you will still need to print a sheet with multiple blocks of the color with slight variations, to compare and see which is closest to your actual playfield color when printed on the decal.

    #10 3 years ago

    What he said... I use a combination of the vinyl cutter for airbrush masking and decals but I don’t think I could ever match the exact color with a decal, I’ve only done primary colors and typically just the intricate things like lettering.

    On this one it’s going to be a total paint over so I don’t have to exactly match the old paint as there won’t be any, so it is a matter of getting close and taking into account fading that might have happened

    #11 3 years ago

    the fading is a serious issue if you are trying to get close to original colors - as opposed to how it looks now. The red fades out of the colors faster, so things tend to go blueish. For example, look at my old Miss-O cabinet, the dark blue looks pretty good, but when I was taking the legs off, I noticed underneath in the area protected by the leg, it was actually purple!

    Miss-O Cabinet Pre-Anything (1) (resized).JPGMiss-O Cabinet Pre-Anything (1) (resized).JPGmiss-o cab front006 (resized).jpgmiss-o cab front006 (resized).jpg
    #12 3 years ago
    Quoted from mark532011:

    The red fades out of the colors faster

    True, true, true. Red was made from an organic source back in the day.

    3 weeks later
    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from mark532011:

    The HP scanner is a terrific tool but it is really difficult to find. So I set about to cobble something together that would work pretty well.
    I started with the Epson Perfection V39. The reason is that the top cover comes off, so it can be laid on top of the playfield. Unfortunately the resulting image is blurry. Its ok for some uses but not for precision work. Take a look at the pic below at full resolution.[quoted image]

    The reason its blurry is there is a ridge of plastic around the glass holding it all together. Which means that a piece of paper lays right on the glass while the playfield is about 1/8" away from the glass due to the plastic ridge. That 1/8" of an inche might not seem like much but with the tiny focus range on scanners its enough to make it out of focus.
    I took the scanner apart, pulling the plastic molding off on the sides and back. You can't pull the front (where the buttons are) plastic off or it won't work. On my V39 the side moldings had sticky tape that had to be carefully pried away.[quoted image]
    Without the plastic bezel, the glass falls off so I taped it on. You have to be careful to place it exactly on the tiny supports right, but once done it works great.[quoted image]
    By simply laying the scanner on the playfield I am able to get decent scans which can then be stitched together later. [quoted image]
    This is a 300dpi scan and a 600dpi scan. Zoom in to 100% and you can see they are not perfect but pretty good[quoted image][quoted image]
    so if you need a scanner, the modified V39 might be a good cheap alternative for you

    I may look for one of these and modify as needed, been looking for an HP for a few weeks with no luck.

    Anyone have any other suggestions?

    #14 2 years ago

    Doxie Flip was the only other one but it is now discontinued. Hopefully the come out with a new one that is letter sized; I have a Doxie and the battery power makes it super convenient but the scan bed is small.

    1 week later
    #15 2 years ago

    <blockquote cite="#6219426" Pantone allows you to have reliable and repeatable color anywhere you print in the world.
    I use a Pantone bridge color swatch kit, which gives an approximate cmyk value for the Pantone colors. Put the swatches next to your playfield and find the closest match, and then use that cmyk value in the software. It’s helpful for getting in the ballpark, but you will still need to print a sheet with multiple blocks of the color with slight variations, to compare and see which is closest to your actual playfield color when printed on the decal.

    My apologies for not replying sooner! I have been printing off various sample colours so as to get a reasonable match but I'll certainly try this too, thank you.

    #16 2 years ago

    I ended up just re-drawing the blue and yellow rockets and main rocket base, as per the images and I decided to re-draw all the red lettering anyway so at least they match. Trouble is, although I definitely used the same yellow computer colour, note that the yellow on the rockets and the yellow on the Special ones are different! The right hand Special has since been redrawn to improve the curvature on the arrow, this is its first draft.
    I think the decal paper I used is the culprit as the special one was printed on newly purchased stock so I'll have to do the colour again.
    The entire playfield is very poor so whatever I do with it will be an improvement! ( sorry for the glare on some; they have been lacquered so reflect the camera flash). The blue colour shade, although looking darker in the image are actually quite close to the original!

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    #17 2 years ago

    that looks sweet! did you use photoshop to recreate the graphics?

    #18 2 years ago

    I think this is an important thread. Not only is the old HP scanner almost impossible to find, the drivers are like 20 years old, difficult to obtain and difficult to install on a PC newer than windows XP. And if you are on Mac or Linux forget it. Did you try scanning a ruler? Are the scan dimensions accurate without scaling?

    #19 2 years ago

    I have Photoshop, Fireworks MX, Illustrator, Corel draw and Inkscape to choose from and I find the old 2004 Fireworks still the most easiest to use, followed by the -free- Inkscape. All these, plus some of the Heatwave ones I'm currently making, were done with Fireworks MX. As mentioned, the colours are the most difficult thing to match. I was using a colour laser but its colours didnt get close enough for an acceptable match so I now use a Canon photo grade onk printer, one that uses an extra black tint colour and that is a lot better,albeit expensive to refill!

    When the 300dpi scans are imported into Fireworks, they retain their size, whereas Inkscape sometimes seems to loose the size. I do use the ruler facility but I always print a greyscale sample which I cut out to compare on the playfield so I know its size is correct.
    I also find the ruler facility in the Silhouette cutter software great when making cabinet stencils too, so much easier and very accurate.

    What I do find too, which might be helpful, is to reduce the scaned image transparency so the new drawing layer can be laid on top as it's being done so you know its accurate. All that said, Inkscape is "smart" where vector lines can be curved and they snap to the scans curved lines; Fireworks does not- unless I've missed something so instead, you have to use brazier points and scale them that way but it's harder.

    I find it's often easier to just draw and drag a circle to a close match and use the knife facility-in Fireworks, and cut the bits you dont need off and drag it into position and fine tune it from there.

    Here are a couple of draft Heatwave playfield decals currently being produced, again with Fireworks. The Temperature advance decals text were obliterated on the right hand side, so the left side was copied and flipped over. I also find, rather than painstakingly trying to recreate text with blown up pixels, it's easier to use a different font that is a close match and stretch /contract/scale it instead, far quicker.

    Hope that is of use.

    20210513_090541 (resized).jpg20210513_090541 (resized).jpg20210513_090619 (resized).jpg20210513_090619 (resized).jpg

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from Vintage-Pinball:

    I have Photoshop, Fireworks MX, Illustrator, Corel draw and Inkscape to choose from

    Awesome work! Curious what type of printing/decals you use? I have a color laser printer using water slide decals that I can't seem to get enough saturation on. Doubling up the decals is a work around, but not a good one.

    Thanks!

    #21 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cmartin1235:

    I think this is an important thread. Not only is the old HP scanner almost impossible to find, the drivers are like 20 years old, difficult to obtain and difficult to install on a PC newer than windows XP. And if you are on Mac or Linux forget it. Did you try scanning a ruler? Are the scan dimensions accurate without scaling?

    Very interesting question. I scanned a ruler at 300dpi, then loaded it up in photoshop and drew a line that was 11 inches long on the tape measure, photoshop says the line was 11.498 inches long so the scanner is not very accurate. Though the resultant scans could be scaled.

    IMG_5698 (resized).jpgIMG_5698 (resized).jpgIMG_5699 (resized).jpgIMG_5699 (resized).jpg
    #22 2 years ago

    I wonder if there is a perspective problem. Could there be a gap between the glass (presumably the imaging plane) and the object?

    #23 2 years ago

    Nice monitor BTW

    #24 2 years ago

    I am not 100% sure what I did makes sense. The reason I say that is because I have scanned in my Ice Revue playfield and used it to cut a paint mask with my Cameo. I just finished the red and blue areas in the center and they are larger than 11" wide and the original is still visible so I can check against it. It was not off by .5 inches. Its hard to be sure as mylar can stretch a bit but I think it was dang close!

    6c9cd786140ca285a9e9c997337c2ab6257cb43b (resized).jpg6c9cd786140ca285a9e9c997337c2ab6257cb43b (resized).jpg
    #25 2 years ago
    Quoted from Fn4me:

    Awesome work! Curious what type of printing/decals you use? I have a color laser printer using water slide decals that I can't seem to get enough saturation on. Doubling up the decals is a work around, but not a good one.
    Thanks!

    Thank you, they took a long time but with a little polishing here and there, I'll be happy to fit them.
    I too was using a colour laser but the colours were too wishy-washy and lacked clarity. I was using laser grade water slide decapaper too so it wasnt that. The inkjet that I'm using now, a Canon, is much better but as said, expensive to replace inks ( I buy the biggest ones that will fit but still quite expensive) and I'm using water slide paper for inkjet. I do use the highest quality settings though, whereas my old laser didnt offer a photo-grade option to be fair.

    #26 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cmartin1235:

    I wonder if there is a perspective problem. Could there be a gap between the glass (presumably the imaging plane) and the object?

    You might well be correct as there is a larger gap between the scanner than if it was being used as it was designed for. I tried, in line with Mark's observations on his Ice Revue playfield measurements, the same thing and the scanner gave slightly larger readings to that of the ruler. I too will need yo do that process on the Apollo as it's so worn.

    Also, I have drawn some cabinet decals for Heatwave and a Sing Along from my Cameo software and again, the measurements were slightly larger from scans to the computers ruler guides. I guess it's something that just needs to be mindful of when preparing to print. As I mentioned, I printed out grey scale playfield decals on standard copier paper and cut them out to compare for their true size on the playfield to be quite certain on accuracy.

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