(Topic ID: 232805)

Royal Guard Scoring Issue


By chuckc

2 years ago



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  • 19 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by chuckc
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

I'm completely new to this hobby, having picked up a Royal Guard this past spring. Last summer the 10 score reel begin to intermittently act up and not register points. The problem got worse and worse so I took a look at it this weekend. I found that when I manually tripped the M relay for the 10 reel the bell would sound but some times the coil in the reel itself would not fire to advance the reel. I would often have to apply a little more pressure to trip both the bell and the score reel coil.
So I cleaned and adjusted the relay switch contacts so now the relay activates, the coil fires and the reel correctly increments each time the relay is manually tripped.

Thinking that I solved the problem I tried a game only to find that the problem is actually worse! The 10 reel now will increment maybe 1 out of 25 times. When a 10 point switch is closed by a ball the M relay and reel coil are firing but it looks like the plunger is not being pulled in far enough to engage the ratchet to advance the reel. So the plunger pulls in and goes back out and nothing happens. Yet when I manually trip the relay everything works fine, the reel advances every single time all day long! For some reason the reel only has an issue when its relay is tripped by a playfield switch, not when it's manually activated.
I checked the ratchet in the reel, it looks fine, does not bind and moves freely. Any help on this would be appreciated!

#2 2 years ago

Hi Chuck, Welcome to pinside!

These 2 switches in this circuit are responsible for keeping the 10 Point (M) relay locked on until the 10 Point score reel has completed its stroke. So at least one of them is probably not making good contact.

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

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#3 2 years ago

The above schematic arrows are incorrect. The 9 position switch on the ones reel only impacts the M relay when the 1s reel is carrying over to the 10s reel. There are a lot of 10 point scores which will not involve that circuit at all.

#4 2 years ago

emsinkc said "The above schematic arrows are incorrect. The 9 position switch on the ones reel only impacts the M relay when the 1s reel is carrying over to the 10s reel. There are a lot of 10 point scores which will not involve that circuit at all."

I stand by my post#2 above. The normally closed End-Of-Stroke switch on the Add Tens unit and the hold switch on the 10 Point relay are responsible for keeping the 10 Point (M) relay locked on until the 10 Point score reel has completed its stroke.

#5 2 years ago

Thank you both for your replies! Man you guys are fast!!

So am I correct in thinking that the reason why the reel works when manually tripped and not (most of the time) when tripped by the playfield is because when I manually trip the M relay the duration of the electrical pulse to the reel coil is enough to allow the coil to complete its cycle? But it may not be working from the playfield switches because the End Of Stroke switch is either open when it should be closed, or is closed with dirty contacts, thus keeping the circuit open and preventing the coil cycle from completing 100%?

And is the hold switch on the 10 Point relay physically located at the relay itself? The M relay has 4 switches, and if one of them is the hold switch, I'm thinking that it's working, otherwise I don't think that the reel would work when manually tripped (but I'm not sure on that).

This problem is most apparent when the game is shut off with a 1 - 9 value left on the ten reel. When it's started back up the score motor just goes and goes while the 10 reel coil plunger repeatedly goes back and forth attempting to re-set the reel to 0. If or when the 10 reel does eventually re-set to 0 the game fires right up.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

emsinkc said "The above schematic arrows are incorrect. The 9 position switch on the ones reel only impacts the M relay when the 1s reel is carrying over to the 10s reel. There are a lot of 10 point scores which will not involve that circuit at all."
I stand by my post#2 above. The normally closed End-Of-Stroke switch on the Add Tens unit and the hold switch on the 10 Point relay are responsible for keeping the 10 Point (M) relay locked on until the 10 Point score reel has completed its stroke.

I am wrong here. That's what I get for reading a schematic on my phone. I thought your red line showed the 9 position switch was in the marked circuit and it isn't.

I'll pull my schematic later on and look it over. My apologies.

#7 2 years ago

That's OK, I thought the same thing when I first looked at it, and I was using an iPad!

After posting my reply I learned that the M hold switch is one of the 4 switches physically located on the M relay, and my logic may be faulty (in assuming that the hold switch works ok because the reel advances when the relay is manually tripped) because of what I mentioned earlier, it may only be working because when manually tripped the duration of the pulse to the 10 Point Reel is long enough to allow the 10 Point Reel coil to fully cycle.

#8 2 years ago

Since it works manually we can eliminate the EOS.

#9 2 years ago

OK, let's dig into this further. What happens with the score reel when you hit a 50 point target, such as the snap targets, the fan targets, or the upper rollovers/lower rollovers when not lit for 500? It's not scoring those either?

What happens with the reel during game reset?

As I said above, I don't think your issue is with the EOS switch on the reel, because it would not work on a manual trigger of the M relay either.

It's possible you have a dirty EOS, and it's also possible that you have a gummed up coil sleeve on the reel itself. Also possible some adjustment needs to be done with the plunger on the reel. Because RG has a ton of 50 point scores on it, and really the only 10 point scores are the pop bumpers when lit, I'm interested in exactly what it is doing with 50 point scores.

#10 2 years ago

The 10 Point score reel could work on a manual trigger of the M relay if (what are the odds) his finger isn't as fast as the relay normally goes.

#11 2 years ago

When a 50 point target is hit the M relay, 10 point bell, 10 point coil and plunger all fire 5 times but the score reel does not usually advance or it will only advance maybe 1 or 2 times, not 5.

When the game is reset (if the 10 point reel is not on 0) the coil and plunger repeatedly cycle while attempting to get the reel to 0. The M relay does not fire while the game resets.

#12 2 years ago

One thing I did notice is that if I very very very gently tap the M relay I can duplicate the problem of the coil and plunger firing but not advancing the reel.

If I give it just a little more pressure when manually activating the relay the reel will advance.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from chuckc:

One thing I did notice is that if I very very very gently tap the M relay I can duplicate the problem of the coil and plunger firing but not advancing the reel.
If I give it just a little more pressure when manually activating the relay the reel will advance.

OK, here's something to check.

You might have too strong a return spring on the relay armature. If that spring is too strong, it keeps the armature from being fully pulled against the coil, which keeps the switches from making good contact, which inhibits current going to the reel coil itself. I have had that happen where someone replaced the return spring.

If you have any spare springs around, try changing to a weaker spring and see if that does anything. Or just switch out the spring from another relay.

The fact that it is working ok when you manually press the armature in eliminates a lot of things, but it indicates to me that something is causing the armature plate from pulling in fully when the coil is trying to do the job itself.

The reel not resetting properly on reset though does seem to indicate some problem with the reel itself. Are you sure that the wireform is not causing too much pressure on the reel and inhibiting it from turning. That can happen when there is too much pressure from the switch blades onto the wireform that moves them. The fix is to adjust the switches so there is less pressure on them and thus less pressure on the wireform onto the reel.

#14 2 years ago

I switched out the spring with the one in the N relay and it now works! Perfectly!

And the weird thing is that the 10 reel now resets immediately when starting a new game, just as it should. I don't know how that happened but I'm not questioning it!

Gentlemen I thank you for your timely and expert advice. You have both helped me fix the machine and gave me some valuable knowledge on how these things work.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from chuckc:

I switched out the spring with the one in the N relay and it now works! Perfectly!
And the weird thing is that the 10 reel now resets immediately when starting a new game, just as it should. I don't know how that happened but I'm not questioning it!
Gentlemen I thank you for your timely and expert advice. You have both helped me fix the machine and gave me some valuable knowledge on how these things work.

Great. Now is the N working ok?

Could have also been the armature was a bit out of whack. But I have had that spring issue before.

#16 2 years ago

Yes the N is working fine.

#17 2 years ago

I did notice that the two rear mounting bolts on the coil relay bracket that mount to the reel frame were only finger tight. I tightened them up
but don't think they would effect the coil/plunger performance because they don't allow for any front to back coil adjustment and the bracket didn't appear
to have any movement at all when they were loose. The two bottom bolts that fasten the bracket to the frame seemed to be enough to secure the backet.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from chuckc:

I did notice that the two rear mounting bolts on the coil relay bracket that mount to the reel frame were only finger tight. I tightened them up
but don't think they would effect the coil/plunger performance because they don't allow for any front to back coil adjustment and the bracket didn't appear
to have any movement at all when they were loose. The two bottom bolts that fasten the bracket to the frame seemed to be enough to secure the backet.

Probably not, but never hurts to have stuff the way it should be.

#19 2 years ago

Agreed.

And thank you again. Your help in this is greatly appreciated.

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