Royal Flush stranger things

For your problem with Player 2 and the 10,000 reel: This is the circuit that fires the "Add 2nd. 'Ten Thousands' unit" coil. You only have 3 switches to check - you can use the wire colors to identify the switches. 9th. pos. 2nd "Thousands" switch is on the P2 1000 score reel and should close when the score reel gets to the 9 position. The P2A switch is in the player unit in the head and should be closed during player 2's turn. I think the L relay is in the head too.

RF 10000 problem (resized).JPG

#3 1 year ago

???

Peruman

Pinside member

Merrimack, NH

4y 58,300 880 8 13

Following up with what PaulAce said above, these problems are all consistent with issues with your Player Unit switches for player 2, 3, and 4

Alberto

#4 1 year ago

ACE

paulace

Pinside+ Frequent

For your player 3 problem - the 1,000 and 10,000 problem are the same problem, since the 10,000 just run off the 1,000 reels - that is, there's no separate relay that runs the 10,000 score reels, and there's nothing on the playfield that scores 10,000 pts. If your 1,000 reel isn't moving, but you're getting some buzzing from the chime coils, it could be that the L relay, (the 1,000 relay) isn't able to relax. There is a normally-closed end-of-stroke switch on each score reel (except the 10,000's) that the plunger opens when it is pulled in by the coil.

In the circuit below, you can see that these EOS switches are all in series with the locking switch on the L relay. They do it that way so that even a momentary closing of a 1,000 pt switch will still allow the score reel plunger to pull all the way in and complete its movement. These switches opening are what breaks the L relay power. If that "On Add 3rd Thousands" switch isn't opening, it might explain what you're seeing:

RF p3 problem (resized).JPG

#5 1 year ago

FTP

fixintoplay

Pinside member

Quoted from paulace:
For your player 3 problem - the 1,000 and 10,000 problem are the same problem, since the 10,000 just run off the 1,000 reels - that is, there's no separate relay that runs the 10,000 score reels, and there's nothing on the playfield that scores 10,000 pts. If your 1,000 reel isn't moving, but you're getting some buzzing from the chime coils, it could be that the L relay, (the 1,000 relay) isn't able to relax. There is a normally-closed end-of-stroke switch on each score reel (except the 10,000's) that the plunger opens when it is pulled in by the coil.
In the circuit below, you can see that these EOS switches are all in series with the locking switch on the L relay. They do it that way so that even a momentary closing of a 1,000 pt switch will still allow the score reel plunger to pull all the way in and complete its movement. These switches opening are what breaks the L relay power. If that "On Add 3rd Thousands" switch isn't opening, it might explain what you're seeing:[quoted image]

This is getting stranger. The series of 5 switches you showed can never be in that state at the same time, i.e., the L lock is open while the other 4 are closed. On my machine, all are either open at the same time or closed at the same time. It's tough to see in the 2 photos I took, but it's true. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong. I did confirm wire colors, cleaned and manually tested each switch, then game-tested with no change in behavior.

L relay1 (resized).jpg

L relay2 (resized).jpg

#6 1 year ago

ACE

paulace

Pinside+ Frequent

I think you're looking at the wrong switches. Only the switch marked "L" in the schematic is on the L relay - that's what the designation "L" on the schematic means. It should have a GR-WH-RED on one leaf, and a WH-BR (white wire with brown tracer) on the other leaf. Each of the other 4 switches is on a different score reel. Look for a switch on the player 3 "1000" score reel that opens when the metal plunger is pulled all the way in. It should be closed otherwise.

Each of the other score reels (except the 10,000 reels) should have a similar switch.

A schematic is NOT a physical representation of the circuit layout. It's an electrical drawing showing how things are wired together - switches that appear next to each other on a schematic may be at opposite ends of the machine or anywhere in-between.

#7 1 year ago

ACE

paulace

Pinside+ Frequent

You might want to read this: https://homepinballrepair.com/em-score-reels-gottlieb/

#8 1 year ago

FTP

fixintoplay

Pinside member

I think alberto confirms my original suspicions regarding the player unit as the culprit. (Paulace alludes to that advising they're the "wrong switches.") The reels can't be the issue; I've rebuilt too many of them to know they're ok. Just to confirm, the "player unit" we're talking about is the monster stepper motor in the head. It's not labeled on either the machine or the schematic. Photo attached. Where I could use some guidance is where to go in the unit and the schematic for troubleshooting. I've worked on plenty of these devices in the past, but with cams and gears, etc., this one is a hybrid challenge. BTW, I did perform a general cleanup on the unit, but stopped short of a full overhaul. Thank you for your input and indulgence.

RF player unit (resized).jpg

#9 1 year ago

MAO

MikeO

Pinside member

Overland Park, KS

11y 88,400 3,625 41

OP
Quoted from fixintoplay:
I think alberto confirms my original suspicions regarding the player unit as the culprit. (Paulace alludes to that advising they're the "wrong switches.") The reels can't be the issue; I've rebuilt too many of them to know they're ok. Just to confirm, the "player unit" we're talking about is the monster stepper motor in the head. It's not labeled on either the machine or the schematic. Photo attached. Where I could use some guidance is where to go in the unit and the schematic for troubleshooting. I've worked on plenty of these devices in the past, but with cams and gears, etc., this one is a hybrid challenge. BTW, I did perform a general cleanup on the unit, but stopped short of a full overhaul. Thank you for your input and indulgence.
[quoted image]

Yes, that is the player unit.

For as many things you are noting not working correctly, and they all point to the player unit, it is recommended you service all of the switches on it.

You will notice the switches are all mounted to a common plate. If you look closer you will see the plate has two screws in holes and two screws in slots at the other end of the plate. Remove the two fixed hole screws, loosen the two slotted hole screws, and you can pull the plate away and easily burnish and clean the points of all of the switches. Use a point file, not a flex stone.

Once the switches are all burnished and clean and the plate is assembled back into the unit, manually stroke the player unit and check each switch for proper open/close/wipe. There should be very few, if any at all, that need adjusting.

Be sure to remove the wiper disc and clean and lube(with Super Lube) the rivet heads on the rivet plate. Be sure to mark the alignment of the wiper plate before you remove it. (looking closer at you photo it looks like the wiper and rivet plates have already been serviced.)

#10 1 year ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

If Player unit switches are at fault, have a look at P2A and P3B

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

pasted_image (resized).png

#11 1 year ago

FTP

fixintoplay

Pinside member

These tips are great. I'll be attacking this bad boy over the next few days armed with some good information. I hope to have good news soon. You'll be hearing back from me either way. Thanks to all, and enjoy this 4th of July to the extent possible. Kind regards.

#12 1 year ago

OMW

Seamlesswall

Pinside member

Dorset, VT

10y 39,200 696 3

Quoted from MikeO:
Use a point file, not a flex stone.

Mike could you elaborate? Why and specifically what type of point file. Thanks! Nice description in your post.

#13 1 year ago

???

pinballdaveh

Pinside member

Unknown

10y 38,800 1,969

Ignition points file. I picked my last one up at Napa auto or thru PBR.

#14 1 year ago

FTP

fixintoplay

Pinside member

Quoted from Seamlesswall:
Mike could you elaborate? Why and specifically what type of point file. Thanks! Nice description in your post.

I had the same question for Mike about why to use the point file over the flexstone. I have both. (Flexstone left, point file right.)

point file (resized).jpg

#15 1 year ago

MAO

MikeO

Pinside member

Overland Park, KS

11y 88,400 3,625 41

The flexstone is inconsistent in its ability to refresh the surface of the contact. And it leaves debris after using.

The point file insures you get a refresh of the contact point surface. Any debris left over is from filings. The key is to be gentle with it. Get contact and insure you have lightly refreshed the surface. If it is a tungsten point a more aggressive filing is appropriate.

What is easier but isn't always perfect is Nic's dremel approach. This method is quicker and mostly polishes any contaminants from the points. It is the most consistent to refresh the surface yet abraid it as little as possible. The qualification to this is if the points are pitted.

Clay did a thorough explanation here.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dremmel-for-contacts#post-4234622

Personally, the dremel works most of the time and should be effective on the RF player unit. Those points should never pit.

#16 1 year ago

FTP

fixintoplay

Pinside member

I did a full overhaul of the player unit as MikeO detailed. I wish he had posted his follow-up notes before I got to work on the unit about how to clean the contacts using gentle pressure. I hope I didn't remove too much contact material in the process. The overhaul worked wonders: all of the erratic or missing functions returned to normal. I was also able to uncover another issue via a running score motor at reset. There was one faulty score reel (P1 10s unit) that was preventing P3 and P4 score reels from completing their resets. I overhauled that unit, as well as the other three P1 score reels since that row gets the most use. Everything works great. There is one other issue that cropped up which I will post separately about awarding extra 1000 and/or 2000 points at random for drop targets. Meanwhile, thanks to all for the advice, guidance and expertise. I thought I'd never get the machine running again. And special thanks to Paulace for reminding me to be more disciplined when servicing score reels.

#17 1 year ago

ACE

paulace

Pinside+ Frequent