(Topic ID: 295734)

Royal Flush Incorrect Scoring

By JRC6000

2 years ago


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  • 18 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by paulace
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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scan-bonus (resized).png
royal flush scoring 3 png (resized).png
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Royal Flush latching relays (resized).JPG
#1 2 years ago

I'm working with a friend on his Gottlieb Royal Flush (1976). He's having a scoring issue and I'm stumped. There are some other topics in the forum, but I'm still not clear what the issue could be. I'm hoping someone out there can help me understand what the issue might be.

Our problem is in the drop target scoring and I guess it's the same for the kick out hole. It should score 1,000; 2,000; 3,000; or 4,000 per depending on how many jokers have been hit. The 1,000 and 4,000 scoring works fine, but we can't get the machine to score 2,000 or 3,000. It keeps scoring 1,000 until all jokers are hit and then jumps to 4,000. I'm sure there is a switch somewhere that is acting up, but can't seem to figure out where.

Thanks for any help out there.

#2 2 years ago

As a first step, I would lift the playfield and start a game (don't forget to keep the return hole switch closed until the kicker tries to kick the ball into the shooter lane, and then briefly close the trough switch with your finger so the game thinks a ball is ready to go).

On the underside of the pf, on the left side and down toward the back of the machine, there is a bank of latching relays. I don't remember how many there are, but the first 3 going from left to right are labeled 1B, 2B and 3B. Those are the latching relays for the jokers - green, white and purple. Using your finger on the pf to close switches, watch to see if those relays are firing and latching. For example, when you hit the green joker target or rollover, the 1B relay should fire and you should see it latch. White joker target or rollover should fire the 2B relay, and purple should fire the 3B relay.

If they are firing and latching, carefully examine the switches on those 3 relays and make sure they're clean and opening/closing as they should in the latched and unlatched positions. That whole bank will tilt down for easier switch access if you loosen the 2 wingnuts on the sides. (Make sure those wingnuts are tightened to begin with.) There are a whole mess of switch tabs and wires at the other end of those switches - look closely there too for shorts/broken wires/bad solder connections.

If they're not firing, we'll have to figure out why that is. I'm guessing that since the 4000 pt scoring works, that they are firing, and it's more of a switch problem, but I'd start with that.

By the way, this snippet isn't supposed to show you how the 1K-4K scoring works, just to show how the latching relays are fired.

Royal Flush latching relays (resized).JPGRoyal Flush latching relays (resized).JPG

#3 2 years ago

Here is the circuit for this scoring. It involves the carryover/elimination switches on the score motor at 2C, 3B, 1B, and 4C. They open/close in time with the pulses on 1A. A lot of switches in this circuit. I hope this helps. Good luck!
RF (resized).pngRF (resized).png

#4 2 years ago

You beat me to it, @leckmeck. But since I just spent the last hour doing my best MarkG impression, I'll post my snippet anyway - it's got a little more explanation thrown in....(too much maybe?)

royal flush scoring 3 png (resized).pngroyal flush scoring 3 png (resized).png

I was thinking of what might explain his symptoms - scoring either 1K or 4K only. If the 2 G switches in the middle of that circuit didn't close, that would do it.

#5 2 years ago

That’s a nicely detailed annotation, @paulace. Your notes explain which pulses from 1A are getting affected. That should help the OP.

These carryover/elimination circuits that function in tandem with pulses from 1A have always fascinated me. A lot of zig-zagging going on.

#6 2 years ago

Well done indeed. I don't remember running across this circuit. I'll have to keep it in mind for future reference.

/Mark

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from leckmeck:

These carryover/elimination circuits that function in tandem with pulses from 1A have always fascinated me. A lot of zig-zagging going on.

I agree - I love sitting there trying to think my way through all those twisty paths....more fun than a 1000 piece puzzle, for sure. I usually see them in bonus collection circuits in those 70's Gottliebs. When they get too confusing for me, I have to ask MarkG for help!

I remember reading that Wayne Neyens could still draw from memory a 6-player circuit that he designed (High Boy in 1954) until he was in his nineties....those designers were talented and clever!

Can you guys think of any other malfunctions that would cause the OP's problem? It would be odd for 2 G switches to not be closing, I guess.

#8 2 years ago

I think your diagnosis is correct. Scoring 1000 indicates that all the switches in the top row work. Scoring 4000 indicates that all the switches in the bottom row work. That leaves the 2 G relay switches in the middle. If either one of them worked you should be able to score 2000.

Although it's less common for two switches to be bad these two are on the same relay so they could be misaligned or dirty or the relay could be goofed up somehow.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I think your diagnosis is correct. Scoring 1000 indicates that all the switches in the top row work. Scoring 4000 indicates that all the switches in the bottom row work. That leaves the 2 G relay switches in the middle. If either one of them worked you should be able to score 2000.
Although it's less common for two switches to be bad these two are on the same relay so they could be misaligned or dirty or the relay could be goofed up somehow.

Cool! I feel like the Pope just blessed me.

I just happened to be working on a Royal Flush this week with some problems, so I was warmed up. Now I hope we're right and the OP can fix his machine.

#10 2 years ago

You all are the best, thanks for the suggestions. I hate to say that the machine is at my friends house, so I'll have to go see him soon and check out those G switches. Unfortunately might be awhile before I can report back, but I will. Thanks again.

#11 2 years ago

I interviewed Ed Krynski for a book I self published about pinball game design back in 1999. He designed the player unit on Card Whiz and Royal Flush to simulate the up and coming digital technology with mechanical circuitry. If I remember correctly, you can only get certain bonuses on ball four and five, maybe only ball five. The game has memory on each ball, and each player, so be careful if you delve Into the player unit -- it is very complex, and not the same as earlier 1970s Gottlieb multi-player units. AZKenny

#12 2 years ago

I have a Card Whiz at home that I play every day. I'm not aware that it has any sort of memory between players - just resets between each ball/player like other EM multi-player machines. It does have double bonus on the final ball, but many other machines do as well - doesn't even have the triple bonus that some '70s games do. I wonder what he meant.

They did do that SS remake of the game in 1983 - Royal Flush Deluxe.

#13 2 years ago

At the end of each ball the game cycles through a series of arrows, checking its memory for which card hands have been completed, and awards the corresponding bonus points. That is vastly different than a bonus unit counting off points at the end of a ball. Also, there are many things wired through the player unit that are notated as P1, P2, etc. on the schematics of some of these types of games. It is noteworthy to check for this regarding a problem you cannot solve. But, knowing what position these switches are supposed to be in during the course of the game is sometimes difficult to figure out. AZKenny

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from AZKenny:

At the end of each ball the game cycles through a series of arrows, checking its memory for which card hands have been completed, and awards the corresponding bonus points. That is vastly different than a bonus unit counting off points at the end of a ball. Also, there are many things wired through the player unit that are notated as P1, P2, etc. on the schematics of some of these types of games. It is noteworthy to check for this regarding a problem you cannot solve. But, knowing what position these switches are supposed to be in during the course of the game is sometimes difficult to figure out. AZKenny

Yes, the “Scan-Bonus” was a neat feature for these two games. Gottlieb used it again on Joker Poker and Cleopatra / Pyramid.

Earlier games “scanned” for bonus collection (Target Alpha / Solar City, Sure Shot / Bank Shot, Jumping Jack / Jack in the Box) but the logic wasn’t tiered with multiple factors involved, nor did they use a lit insert to indicate which bonus was being checked.

scan-bonus (resized).pngscan-bonus (resized).png

#15 2 years ago

Thanks for the flyer post. Great stuff! AZKenny

#16 2 years ago

Sometimes with a series of relays there is a control bank switch that gradually closes. When the second relay engages the first contacts close. When the third relay engages the second contacts close. When the fourth relay engages the last contacts close. More force is put on each set of contacts as the relays engage, especially once the last one is engaged. Hypothetically, if the blades of the contacts are weak, especially the first two, they might not make full contact until all four jokers are knocked down. So, you can score 1000, and 4000, but not 2000 or 3000. Once blades become weak it is difficult to keep them adjusted without replacing them. Not sure if that's exactly how Royal Flush is supposed to work, but you get the idea. AZKenny

1 week later
#17 2 years ago

I visited my friend yesterday and after checking out the 1B, 2B, and 3B relays...and thoroughly cleaning and adjusting the G relay, I'm thrilled to say that the machine now scores correctly! My friend was so happy. He said that it hadn't scored 2,000 or 3,000 in years.

Thank you guys so much for the advice and detailed explanations. This felt like a tough one to me and I appreciate the help. I'll have another puzzle out soon. I'm working on a Pat Hand that is having score reel issues...

#18 2 years ago

Glad you got it sorted.

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