(Topic ID: 273443)

Royal Flush extra ball versus replay

By tyking

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

I got a ‘76 Royal flush when I bought a house and the previous owner left it behind. I always loved pinball and now I am in heaven. But the thing is, it looks like the machine was hacked to play in free place by bypassing a switch on the ball # motor (I’ll try to attach a photo). As a result I’m thinking that the extra ball / replay function is not working. I hear the knock when I reach the # of points, but when the ball drains, it either advances to next player or when playing one player it just sits in the drain with extra ball light flashing.

So I’m wondering how is the extra ball supposed to actually work both in the mechanical sense and the game play sense. Is “replay” the same as extra ball? I think there is a difference between adding a credit and adding a ball, where the credit is a new game, versus adding a ball to an already existing game. So I want to clarify whether replay means adding a credit or adding a ball.

And also, I’d like to know whether there is a better way to put a RF on free play, so that all the functionality stays intact. Thank you.

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#2 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

So I’m wondering how is the extra ball supposed to actually work both in the mechanical sense and the game play sense. Is “replay” the same as extra ball? I think there is a difference between adding a credit and adding a ball, where the credit is a new game, versus adding a ball to an already existing game. So I want to clarify whether replay means adding a credit or adding a ball.

Replay: the credit unit is stepped up by one, and you hear a knock.
Extra ball (on a multi-player game like Royal Flush): The "same player shoots again" relay is turned on, one of its functions being to light the corresponding light on the playfield. When you drain that ball, the relay stays on long enough to suppress the usual end-of-ball step ahead to the next player or ball in play.

If your photo shows the Credit Unit (the one with a reel to display how many credits you have through the little window), then I think you are showing us the hack that allows free play even when there are 0 credits. That would be unrelated to your problem.
.................David Marston

#3 3 years ago

Someone enlightened me that RF does not actually have extra ball though. I saw it in a mod in another post and did not realize it was a mod (see below)

Thanks for the explanation on how it works on games that actually have it. Can’t wait to get one.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/give-your-royal-flush-drop-targets-resetbonus-count2x-bonusextra-ball#post-5757677

#4 3 years ago

I can see some terminology overlap between:
Free Play: does not require a coin to start the game even when there are zero credits;
Free Game/Replay: a credit won by skillful play.
Special: a euphemism for replay (as defined above) in most territories, but can mean other awards, including extra ball, in places where replays are outlawed.

Some Bally multi-player EM games were described as being "convertible to add-a-ball" where the Special and scoring thresholds would turn on the Same Player Shoots Again relay. Search for the topic words "add-a-ball" in this forum to find several topics that discuss why such behavior is not considered "true" add-a-ball.

So I gather that your game is BOTH set for free play (as defined above) and has some hack that was attempting to implement Bally's idea of an add-a-ball conversion. Besides a knock, is anything happening when you reach the designated number of points for a reward?
.................David Marston

#5 3 years ago

The only other thing that happens, sometimes, is the light behind the white star-ish design blinks. But I don’t think mine was hacked to add a ball, i was just confused by the post where someone showed how he did it to his RF.

Thank you for setting me straight on the lingo. It is easy for me to forget that these machines hit the streets so long ago, it was almost a different world in terms of the rules and regs of games of chance.

#6 3 years ago

actually i take it back, because i just remembered that RF has (i think) this 00-90 function where at the end of the game one of the tens will light up, i.e. 00, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, or 90. If the number that lights up matches the tens of a player's score then you are supposed to get a replay. This is one the F relay. The F relay does not reset itself, so the number that lights up is always the same, right now it is 90. but when i manually reset it at the beginning of the game, it will function and one of the random tens will light up. however, since the game is set to freeplay, i am not sure whether it works, and if it is the freeplay that is stopping it from resetting.

also, i swear i got an extra ball today, scored 80,000 or so and heard the knock, the ball was shot to the plunger, BUT the drop targets did not reset and the bonus did not count, i thought maybe the ball jumped over the switch between the drain and the plunger, so i lifted the playfield and hit the switch, and the drop targets reset and bonus counted. it was my 3rd ball on 3 ball play. after that ball drained, another one shot out to the play field and the ball in play 4 number lit up. i played that ball and it went to game over.

#7 3 years ago

Those number-match steppers don't have a home position, they just cycle around. They are notorious for adjustment issues such as being unable to step forward. Even if the game is set for free play, a match could still award a game on the credit unit. But if your game was hacked to give an extra ball at certain point scores, that hack could interfere with the match circuit, too.

When you light and then win Special, what do you get?
.................David Marston

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

actually i take it back, because i just remembered that RF has (i think) this 00-90 function where at the end of the game one of the tens will light up, i.e. 00, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, or 90. If the number that lights up matches the tens of a player's score then you are supposed to get a replay. This is one the F relay. The F relay does not reset itself, so the number that lights up is always the same, right now it is 90. but when i manually reset it at the beginning of the game, it will function and one of the random tens will light up. however, since the game is set to freeplay, i am not sure whether it works, and if it is the freeplay that is stopping it from resetting.
also, i swear i got an extra ball today, scored 80,000 or so and heard the knock, the ball was shot to the plunger, BUT the drop targets did not reset and the bonus did not count, i thought maybe the ball jumped over the switch between the drain and the plunger, so i lifted the playfield and hit the switch, and the drop targets reset and bonus counted. it was my 3rd ball on 3 ball play. after that ball drained, another one shot out to the play field and the ball in play 4 number lit up. i played that ball and it went to game over.

There is no extra-ball in Royal Flush. What you describe is a)you hit the first replay goal, hence the knock b)you obviously rolled over the right lane which opens the gate, letting the ball return to the shooter lane and giving you the 'extra-ball'. The drops do not reset thus letting you continue. Royal Flush targets reset at the end of every ball. Nothing carries over.........

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

When you light and then win Special, what do you get?
.................David Marston

i get the knock

#10 3 years ago

When you get the knock, is the credit wheel also stepping up by one step? Normally Gottlieb makes the knock a by-product of this wheel stepping up, but I think it is safe not to assume anything. The step-up and knock should occur for all 3 kinds of win: score threshold, end-of-game match, and special. (Side note: when the game is priced to give multiple games for a quarter, inserting the quarter will cause the credit unit to step up, but the knock is suppressed.)
.................David Marston

#11 3 years ago

The credit wheel never moves, b/c one of the switches on it has been bypassed to put it on free play (See pic)

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#12 3 years ago

I'm not sure on Gottlieb, but on Bally and Williams if you simulate free play, the credit wheel still advances on replays/specials.

#13 3 years ago

I will check again, i was actually just assuming it doesn’t move because in all the playing I’ve done it never appeared to change, i did manually change it once, and i think it gradually moved back to its initial position and never moved again. I will take a look to confirm

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:

I'm not sure on Gottlieb, but on Bally and Williams if you simulate free play, the credit wheel still advances on replays/specials.

It definitely does, but it really depends on how they set the free play. I usually just find the switch that controls the non-zero circuit on the credit wheel and pinch it closed with a wire tie.

Depending on how long the OP's wheel has been like this (non moving) it might be seized at this point and need rebuilding.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

The credit wheel never moves, b/c one of the switches on it has been bypassed

The only switch on the credit unit that defeats the step-UP (or "add") solenoid is the one that opens when the maximum number of credits has been reached. You should do your experiments with 2-3 credits showing when you start, so you can observe steps in either direction.
.................David Marston

#16 3 years ago

Can someone tell from these pics if the Credit unit mechanism is misadjusted. After I manually advance (increase) the credits, and restart a game it does reset itself; but it resets to a blank part of the wheel rather than to 0.

Also when I manually advance it , it appears to advance only about 8 units until the spring wire becomes taught and the post sticking out of the wheel hits the switch. This seems weird to me since the wheel has 15 numbers on it but it seems like the mechanism only allows it to advance 8 units.

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#17 3 years ago

The credit unit does advance (increase) when the requisite number of points are hit, although it is hard to tell if it is moving forward and back very quickly, as it is starting at a blank spot. The mechanism is firing for sure though when the points are hit.

#18 3 years ago

I’m thinking the post on the left was bolted into the wrong hole?

#19 3 years ago

If it were moved one hole over it wouldn’t get stuck on the spring and it would provide for a greater range of motion before the post on the right hits it’s switch?

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

I’m thinking the post on the left was bolted into the wrong hole?

That post is adjustable to set the max number of allowed credits. It should not have the spring wrapped around it, so that is definitely not correct.

#21 3 years ago

Removed and moved the post, and moved the wheel, and it now works correctly!

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

Removed and moved the post, and moved the wheel, and it now works correctly!

Sweet. Royal Flush is a great game. I hope to add one to the line up someday.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

Removed and moved the post, and moved the wheel, and it now works correctly!

I hope "correctly" means that numbers are showing through the window. That first photo of the reel being in thte blank area above 15 is a place the reel should not be.

Of the two posts in the side of the ratchet, the one with a screw head that can be taken out and put in one of several threaded holes is where you adjust the maximum number of credits allowed. The fixed post is the one that is supposed to actuate the zero-position switches.
.................David Marston

#24 3 years ago

Yes, I have it set now so that 0 shows at the restart. Also when I hit the requisite number of points it adds credits. Also when I hit the switch in the 2nd coin chute it also adds credits. And the when it is game over, and the score reel resets, it resets to 0.

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

Yes, I have it set now so that 0 shows at the restart. Also when I hit the requisite number of points it adds credits. Also when I hit the switch in the 2nd coin chute it also adds credits. And the when it is game over, and the score reel resets, it resets to 0.

I'm not completely confident about Gottlieb's again, but I don't think you should reset to 0 credits at the end of a game. Are you saying if you have, say 4 credits on the game and play a single player game, that the credit wheel goes to 0 at the end of that game even though you only used 1 credit to play the game?

#26 3 years ago

Yes, it appears that although the credit wheel is now functional, it does not count down correctly. In addition, it does not add credits when I press the button that adds players. It only appears to advance credits when I trigger the switch On the 2nd coin chute, and gives two credits each time it is triggered. No credits added when I trigger the switch on the 1st coin chute.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from tyking:

Yes, it appears that although the credit wheel is now functional, it does not count down correctly. In addition, it does not add credits when I press the button that adds players. It only appears to advance credits when I trigger the switch On the 2nd coin chute, and gives two credits each time it is triggered. No credits added when I trigger the switch on the 1st coin chute.

Show a pic of the wheel now. I'm betting that spring needs to be adjusted more. The arc was too great and if it still is that could be an issue.

#28 3 years ago

One pic is with wheel at 14 (rod with white tip away from switch. Other pic is wheel at 0. Close up pic is wheel at 1.

Not sure what to make of the following: when I play in more than one player mode it adds a credit at the end (maybe the f relay is doing this?)(I still haven’t soldered the c points on the score reel circuit boards). It does not do this in one player mode.

It does not necessarily decrease credits At game over, but when I turn machine off and then turn back on, and then press the play button to reset, it resets to 0.

Disclaimer, there were a lot of different scenarios, e.g. one player or multiplayer; starting at 0, 1, 4, 15 credits Etc.; turning machine off or not before reset; and i was not tracking everything 100%

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#29 3 years ago

There is an extra pawl on those stepper units for single-step subtract. It could be held out of the way, which would allow a full fly-back instead of a single step. Look at all the things that engage the ratchet teeth and you may be able to pick it out.
.................David Marston

#30 3 years ago

There's a short video at https://www.funwithpinball.com/exhibits/small-boards#CreditUnit that demonstrates how the credit unit steps up and down that might help.

/Mark

#31 3 years ago

I love those device mock up videos, thanks.

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